Hammer coming down USA retirement ?

[runforest]

Just got back from Bangkok immigration submitting for Retirement extension. Had all the right forms and embassy letter for monthly income but she asked me for Bank statements . I told her I didnt know about that but I did have me bank book which she didnt even look at and told me next time bring proof of income and let me go with the stamp.

Just a heads up.

[tropo]

Hmm.... just joined 9 minutes ago to tell us this? What does it mean "let me go with the stamp". I don't normally call troll on posts, but this could be one.

 

 

[moe666]

Why is that a hammer, they have always been able to ask for your proof of income and some have asked over the years. Nothing new here folks, move along.

[ubonjoe]

Perhaps a newbie officer. No other reports of being told that at Chaeng Wattana immigration.

[tropo]

3 minutes ago, moe666 said:

Why is that a hammer, they have always been able to ask for your proof of income and some have asked over the years. Nothing new here folks, move along.

It would be new in that we never hear reports of immigration officers asking for bank statements as proof of income. Although we know it CAN happen that they may require evidence, we never see reports of such.

[lovelomsak]

Cannot see the problem?  If they ask for proof give it to them. What is so hard about that?

[robblok]

1 hour ago, tropo said:

It would be new in that we never hear reports of immigration officers asking for bank statements as proof of income. Although we know it CAN happen that they may require evidence, we never see reports of such.

Actually recently there have been a few topics on this where they required extra supporting documents from US expats. Many of us have argued this is because the US embassy does not ask for any documents and just puts down whatever the person says it is.

 

Just look and you will find it, if i try to get documents like this at the Dutch embassy they ask me for tax papers for instance so they know its backed up by real facts.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

Actually recently there have been a few topics on this where they required extra supporting documents from US expats. Many of us have argued this is because the US embassy does not ask for any documents and just puts down whatever the person says it is.

 

As I have written before in other topics the US embassy is not the only one that does not ask for proof.

Also if they ask for it will be for all countries like some offices have done in the past and few do now.

[bkk6060]

?  Here we go again I guess.

 

The report sounds odd. ??

Anyway, I guess to be safe bring every piece of supporting documents you can.

 

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

As I have written before in other topics the US embassy is not the only one that does not ask for proof.

Also if they ask for it will be for all countries like some offices have done in the past and few do now.

Yes, the US embassy is not the only one, but so far the reports we are getting back are about the US. You yourself have read those post and topics. So it is happening, but as your said its not happening for every office. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If I recall correctly, there was a similar thread and report in recent weeks out of Chiang Mai.  And when all the dust settled, after the OP reported a supposed new policy re all American applicants, the request for backup financial information and those reports turned out to be coming from some first time American applicants.

 

And contrary to the initial report, the request for backup financial documents in CM wasn't being directed at all retirement extension applicants or even all American retirement extension applicants.  People who were extending after having had prior extensions weren't being asked at all.

 

That thread probably ran a dozen pages or so before the truth finally sorted out. It's now at 16 pages total.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[kurtmartens]

35 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

If I recall correctly, there was a similar thread and report in recent weeks out of Chiang Mai.  And when all the dust settled, after the OP reported a supposed new policy re all American applicants, the request for backup financial information and those reports turned out to be coming from some first time American applicants.

 

And contrary to the initial report, the request for backup financial documents in CM wasn't being directed at all retirement extension applicants or even all American retirement extension applicants.  People who were extending after having had prior extensions weren't being asked at all.

 

That thread probably ran a dozen pages or so before the truth finally sorted out. It's now at 16 pages total.

 

Correct.  My parents were asked to provide their bank statements showing their pension and social security deposits from CNX Immigration - even with the US Consulate affidavit.  Was a hassle, but that is what Immigration wanted so that is what they were given in the end.

 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, lovelomsak said:

Cannot see the problem?  If they ask for proof give it to them. What is so hard about that?

People do need to know what paperwork to prepare. Especially those who have to travel some distance to the nearest imm office.

 

Some people do not have their monthly income deposited here but rather into a home country bank and then use ATM withdrawals. Others may do transfers but not monthly, only as needed, with the original income having gone into a home country bank. Etc etc. So preparing proof might entail a lot more than photocopy of Thai bank book for some. In fact, those using the ATM withdrawal approach might need to start saving all their ATM receipts....

[bkk6060]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

People do need to know what paperwork to prepare. Especially those who have to travel some distance to the nearest imm office.

 

Some people do not have their monthly income deposited here but rather into a home country bank and then use ATM withdrawals. Others may do transfers but not monthly, only as needed, with the original income having gone into a home country bank. Etc etc. So preparing proof might entail a lot more than photocopy of Thai bank book for some. In fact, those using the ATM withdrawal approach might need to start saving all their ATM receipts....

How about just printing out the past several monthly statements?

[impulse]

2 hours ago, lovelomsak said:

Cannot see the problem?  If they ask for proof give it to them. What is so hard about that?

 

The problem isn't what they're asking for.  The problem is that they seem to be asking for more than they have in the past, apparently without notice.  Not everyone carries their birth certificate, SS card, bank statements, police records, university transcripts, health records or a hundred other documents that they may decide to ask for next week. 

 

With the new info from this OP and others, applicants can be a little better prepared- even the ones who have been doing it the same way for decades.

[lovelomsak]

47 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

People do need to know what paperwork to prepare. Especially those who have to travel some distance to the nearest imm office.

 

Some people do not have their monthly income deposited here but rather into a home country bank and then use ATM withdrawals. Others may do transfers but not monthly, only as needed, with the original income having gone into a home country bank. Etc etc. So preparing proof might entail a lot more than photocopy of Thai bank book for some. In fact, those using the ATM withdrawal approach might need to start saving all their ATM receipts....

I was one of the ATM guys for 10 years . I was to lazy to find another way to bring money. All I did for immigration was have a copy of my tax return notarized at my embassy  showing my income and all was fine not hard at all.

  

[impulse]

12 minutes ago, lovelomsak said:

I was one of the ATM guys for 10 years . I was to lazy to find another way to bring money. All I did for immigration was have a copy of my tax return notarized at my embassy  showing my income and all was fine not hard at all.  

 

And the guys who don't pay taxes in their home country?  Or who didn't pay extra last year to get monthly bank statements mailed to them, and now find out they maybe should have?  Or don't even have a traditional bank account- preferring alternatives that don't enrich the banksters.

 

No, it may not be THAT difficult- in most cases.  As long as you know what you will need in advance of the day, which is the point of updating info on threads like this.  

 

And changing the requirements can be a real headache for a lot of people in situations that aren't identical to yours or mine.  There's a lot of ways to bring in the required amount of earnings- many of them perfectly legal.  But not all of them are as easy to document as others. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by impulse

[NCC1701A]

I'm an American and I am going to immigration in Hua Hin tomorrow.

 

I'll let you know if I see any hammers.

[tropo]

5 hours ago, Sheryl said:

People do need to know what paperwork to prepare. Especially those who have to travel some distance to the nearest imm office.

 

Some people do not have their monthly income deposited here but rather into a home country bank and then use ATM withdrawals. Others may do transfers but not monthly, only as needed, with the original income having gone into a home country bank. Etc etc. So preparing proof might entail a lot more than photocopy of Thai bank book for some. In fact, those using the ATM withdrawal approach might need to start saving all their ATM receipts....

I'm one of those you describe. Money transferred as required. ATM withdrawals and my preferred method - charging to home-country debit/credit cards.

 

That's if they want to see the movement of offshore funds. If they want to see proof of income, that could require other proof, as many don't survive on pensions, but money sourced elsewhere.

Edited July 23, 2018 by tropo

[Sheryl]

Peoof of income would only be for those using the income method, those using the 800K in a Thai bank account method, no need as you already demonstrate having the funds in Thailand. But at least until now, people could use the incoem method with nothing other than a letter from their Embassy to substantiate it.

[tropo]

4 hours ago, lovelomsak said:

I was one of the ATM guys for 10 years . I was to lazy to find another way to bring money. All I did for immigration was have a copy of my tax return notarized at my embassy  showing my income and all was fine not hard at all.

  

That was how I used to do it years ago before they started charging high ATM fees. You could get any amount out with no ATM fee.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The potential problem when IOs start asking for supporting bank documents is some offices/officers seem to want to see the required monthly income amount showing up only in Thai bank accounts -- which retirement extension income is not required to reach under the Immigration rules.

 

Under the actual rules, and in fact under the U.S. income affidavit, it's perfectly fine to have that income remain in one's home country in terms of banking, and then withdraw by Thai ATM with your home country card or spend with your home country card -- both ways that never touch Thai bank accounts.

 

The extension rule doesn't say you have to SPEND out of or deposit into at least 65,000 baht per month from a Thai bank account. It says you have to have/show at least 65,000 baht in income from all sources, which for a retirement extension person, almost certainly isn't going to be earned in Thailand. There's nothing in the rule that says the monthly income has to be deposited anywhere in particular, but Immigration doesn't always seem to recognize that.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[gk10002000]

16 hours ago, Sheryl said:

People do need to know what paperwork to prepare. Especially those who have to travel some distance to the nearest imm office.

 

Some people do not have their monthly income deposited here but rather into a home country bank and then use ATM withdrawals. Others may do transfers but not monthly, only as needed, with the original income having gone into a home country bank. Etc etc. So preparing proof might entail a lot more than photocopy of Thai bank book for some. In fact, those using the ATM withdrawal approach might need to start saving all their ATM receipts....

yep.  I myself know I will be returning to the USA at least once or twice a year, as I have some business and personal interests there.  And when I return to Thailand, I would bring in just under 10K USD the max amount that does not require me to report anything on the USA side when leaving the USA.  Then the one or two months when cash gets low, I do ATM withdrawals.  I envision few to no needs to transfer in any monies, and I certainly won't have monthly transfers.  Now I do believe at some point the Thais, will be expecting to see monthly transfers.  I believe that most of them expect some sort of monthly pension, or something like that from foreigners that declare income method, even though many don't have regular things.  And more importantly I think the Thais will be heading towards wanting to see monthly transfers into Thailand.  Now if one shows a large amount transferred in every 3 months, would that be OK?  Don't know.  Time will tell.  Me, I get my passive income from dividends and interest.  I won't have and don't need anything more, although in a year or two I will start USA social security.  But that won't be deposited anywhere near Thailand as all my monies stay in the USA invested.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

Now if one shows a large amount transferred in every 3 months, would that be OK?

That should be acceptable since you only need to show an average monthly income for the year. 

[NancyL]

12 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Peoof of income would only be for those using the income method, those using the 800K in a Thai bank account method, no need as you already demonstrate having the funds in Thailand. But at least until now, people could use the incoem method with nothing other than a letter from their Embassy to substantiate it.

For years I used the 800,000 baht in the bank method because I was too young to start my pension.  The money just sat in the Thailand bank, untouched, from year-to-year.  One year the Chiang Mai imm. officer asked me how I had money to live since I never touched the deposit, so yes I was asked about my source of income.  I replied that my husband's pensions are sufficient to support both of us, would you like to see.  I pulled out our joint Bangkok Bank passbook, opened it to a page where he could see it was an active account with a mid-six figure balance and showed it to him.  He just waved it away.  He just wanted to know if I had a good story and to see if I'd squirm in case I was working illegally.

 

Other years there were questions about how I spent my time in Thailand.  Part of this was maybe because I said I was studying Thai language and the officer was delighted to try to have a conversation in Thailand.  I made a point of saying how I had lunch with friends, went shopping, cooked for my husband, played with our cats, etc and avoided what could be interpreted as volunteer work.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That should be acceptable since you only need to show an average monthly income for the year. 

 

Joe, are you sure about that "average" interpretation on the part of Immigration?

 

I don't recall the word "average" being in front of the "monthly income" language in the copy of the Immigration reg I have on retirement extensions.  And I know the term "average" is not used in the wording of the U.S. Embassy income affidavit.

 

I hope you're right that all the various Immigration offices would use a sensible approach and accept the "average" monthly income interpretation.  I just don't know what an applicant would point to as justification if an IO challenged them on that point.

 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I don't recall the word "average" being in front of the "monthly income" language in the copy of the Immigration reg I have on retirement extensions.  And I know the term "average" is not used in the wording of the U.S. Embassy income affidavit.

It only says per month not monthly. I can assure you immigration have accepted annual income converted to a per month number. Some back up proof of income can be annual income For example a income tax return or income statement. 

What the income affidavit says is what immigration would expect to see. The application form for a income letter from the UK embassy has annual income shown on it would be an example. I think others show a annual and a per month income.

Some pensions are paid weekly, biweekly or bimonthly as well. Weekly would have to be totaled up to a annual income and then divided by 12 to get the per month income.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I hope you're right about that, though the issue with Thai Immigration is that they have so many different offices, and many of them at times like to interpret things their own particular way.  Consistency is NOT a term you'd use to describe the breadth of Thai Immigration interpretations here.

 

For my part, I don't like to take chances or rely on the hope that Immigration will interpret things the way common sense or I think they should, especially if I don't have something concrete/specific to point to in justifying the position I'm taking. All it takes is ONE Immigration officer to ruin your day (or year). So I try to go beyond in terms of the way I handle my "monthly" income.

 

Specifically, a portion of my income, like many I suspect, comes from stock dividends and such, which often are paid on a quarterly basis instead of monthly. And at least in the U.S., not always the same set of quarterly months.  So, in terms of how I've handled my U.S. investments, I've tried to divvy them up so that my quarterly dividends end up being roughly equal across all the different months. So month to month, even though the dividends are coming from different sources, the monthly totals end up being roughly the same.

 

I've done that gradually over time, investing new funds that become available in a dividend payments pattern that fits my monthly balance needs. Overkill?  Perhaps...  But I like to think it's a reasonable, prudent step to avoid potential hassles with Immigration.

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

44 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The application form for a income letter from the UK embassy has annual income shown on it would be an example. I think others show a annual and a per month income.

 

 

That's interesting re the UK income affidavit referring to annual income.  I didn't know that (not being a UK person).

 

Curious how the U.S. affidavit form uses monthly income, but the UK form uses annual income,  while the Thai regulation itself refers to monthly income.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, on the main point of this thread, I hope any Americans who do have upcoming retirement extensions at BKK Chaengwattana will report back here on whether Immigration there is in fact taking any tougher posture toward income affidavit documentation.

 

I've done my retirement extensions for years at BKK-CW, and always brought with me a backup package of account statements to support the amount shown on my income affidavit.  Thus far, in many years, I've never been asked once to produce/show those....   Hope that continues to be the pattern.