My Visa Run

[BAF]

Okay now I know your full of it. Your 30 years old and too lazy to go on Tourist visa runs? Give me a break.

Okay now I know you are another one of those pathetic daydreamers who can't stand the realities of their (fake) smiling Thai paradise being thrown at them...

Otherwise, you wouldn't have felt the need of getting personal.

So what if its not in writing they will keep doing it.

SAYS WHO?

What choice do you have?

The choice of another, less risky country.

You already supposedly invested in a condo etc. You can't spend 40K baht a year and 4 short trips to Malaysia to get a TV? Yeah right.

I am saying that I would NOT invest in a condo etc exactly because there is nothing certain (and as things are going, not even probable) about getting 4 TVs per year in Malaysia for the years to come.

NOT because I'm lazy and I don't want to make those "short" trips.

The ED visa is not hard at all.

And it isn't a sure back to back thing at all, either...

Enroll at the school and they give you a letter and you head off to a foreign consulate. If you can get to your home country they give you a multi and if to a SEA consulate they give you a single and you can extend in country. That is too hard or complicated for you? I have done this and its a piece of cake. Are you an invalid?

I simply don't want to become one jumping throu the ever raising hoops Thais are setting up for the foreigners.

To each his own.

Guess "It's not the effort, is the precariousness of it all that is discouraging.

Lately there have been nothing but red flags for the exapts in LOS..." was a bit too hard to comprehend. I apologise for my English.

Lots and lots of people get ED visa's back to back.

Yeah, and lots and lots of people have WPs. So what?

Trying to tell me those are also child's play to get and keep?

Ever hear of a university?Massage schools? Language schools? Muay Thai training? Oh it costs to much. Oh bull. If you can scrape together 10K baht for a nonrefundable deposit you can get the visa.

Although it's money burned, and I don't like to waste money, I have not said a thing on the costs involved.

Just on the fact that you are cheating them to get a visa you are not supposed to get UNLESS, of course, you are telling me that I should force myself to like and to do things I do not like and would not do if I didn't need them to get a visa.

It sounds like work to me. Keeping me busy and spending my time on things I need to do to keep my visa instead of the things I like and I want to stay in Thailand for.

And this is your solution? Freaking brilliant.

My guess is you don't have a condo or a car and probably not much money. Your just a troll. Get a life BAF

OK, if it makes you feel better: I DO NOT have a condo and a car in Thailand (and never claimed to), I live in a villa in centre Italy (8 kms from the beach, Adriatic Sea, valued recently at around € 750.000), I own a car (medium-small sedan automatic diesel) and I will inherit another house divided into 4 apartments for which we collect 4 rents. My parents have 2 good pensions and they let me take 3 of those rents. I am your classic spoiled brat who has never really worked in his life and just traveled (a lot) the world

I am currently back at the uni getting my 2nd degree which should allow me (the 1st one is useless) to move with my wife to the USA where I have been holidaying/working for a long while in the past (and which I absolutely love).

You are right in that I haven't much disposable income at the mo, but I would if I were to go with my Plan B (I would sell the villa and would still have those 3/4 rents as a not so big but safe and constant stream of monthly income).

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Okay now I know your full of it. Your 30 years old and too lazy to go on Tourist visa runs? Give me a break.

Okay now I know you are another one of those pathetic daydreamers who can't stand the realities of their (fake) smiling Thai paradise being thrown at them...

Otherwise, you wouldn't have felt the need of getting personal.

So what if its not in writing they will keep doing it.

SAYS WHO?

What choice do you have?

The choice of another, less risky country.

You already supposedly invested in a condo etc. You can't spend 40K baht a year and 4 short trips to Malaysia to get a TV? Yeah right.

I am saying that I would NOT invest in a condo etc exactly because there is nothing certain (and as things are going, not even probable) about getting 4 TVs per year in Malaysia for the years to come.

NOT because I'm lazy and I don't want to make those "short" trips.

The ED visa is not hard at all.

And it isn't a sure back to back thing at all, either...

Enroll at the school and they give you a letter and you head off to a foreign consulate. If you can get to your home country they give you a multi and if to a SEA consulate they give you a single and you can extend in country. That is too hard or complicated for you? I have done this and its a piece of cake. Are you an invalid?

I simply don't want to become one jumping throu the ever raising hoops Thais are setting up for the foreigners.

To each his own.

Guess "It's not the effort, is the precariousness of it all that is discouraging.

Lately there have been nothing but red flags for the exapts in LOS..." was a bit too hard to comprehend. I apologise for my English.

Lots and lots of people get ED visa's back to back.

Yeah, and lots and lots of people have WPs. So what?

Trying to tell me those are also child's play to get and keep?

Ever hear of a university?Massage schools? Language schools? Muay Thai training? Oh it costs to much. Oh bull. If you can scrape together 10K baht for a nonrefundable deposit you can get the visa.

Although it's money burned, and I don't like to waste money, I have not said a thing on the costs involved.

Just on the fact that you are cheating them to get a visa you are not supposed to get UNLESS, of course, you are telling me that I should force myself to like and to do things I do not like and would not do if I didn't need them to get a visa.

It sounds like work to me. Keeping me busy and spending my time on things I need to do to keep my visa instead of the things I like and I want to stay in Thailand for.

And this is your solution? Freaking brilliant.

My guess is you don't have a condo or a car and probably not much money. Your just a troll. Get a life BAF

OK, if it makes you feel better: I DO NOT have a condo and a car in Thailand (and never claimed to), I live in a villa in centre Italy (8 kms from the beach, Adriatic Sea, valued recently at around € 750.000), I own a car (medium-small sedan automatic diesel) and I will inherit another house divided into 4 apartments for which we collect 4 rents. My parents have 2 good pensions and they let me take 3 of those rents. I am your classic spoiled brat who has never really worked in his life and just traveled (a lot) the world

I am currently back at the uni getting my 2nd degree which should allow me (the 1st one is useless) to move with my wife to the USA where I have been holidaying/working for a long while in the past (and which I absolutely love).

You are right in that I haven't much disposable income at the mo, but I would if I were to go with my Plan B (I would sell the villa and would still have those 3/4 rents as a not so big but safe and constant stream of monthly income).

My apologies BAF. I was confusing you with the Original Poster who said he owns condos already. hel_l if you can live in Italy why move to mangy Thailand. If I had a better income I would move out your way for a while.

But back to the subject its not that hard to get by here. You could get the ED visa and never go to school. Yes its true. I did this very thing. Signed up for a massage school and gave them a deposit and got the paperwork. Got my Visa in the states and when I got to Thailand they changed the schedule and when I said I could not do the new schedule they gave me my deposit back. Even if you had to eat the deposit then its more than offset for the low cost of living here. You just need to look at the overall cost of living. Believe me after living here for a few years going for a tourist visa run will help you keep your sanity and give your diet some much needed variety.

Good luck with your decisions !!!

[BAF]

My apologies BAF. I was confusing you with the Original Poster who said he owns condos already.

It's allright, no probs. Just couldn't understand the sudden change of tone

hel_l if you can live in Italy why move to mangy Thailand.

In fact we are not contemplating any move to Thailand, that's just my Plan B which I would execute alone if things with my wife went bad. She is getting Italian citizenship and is getting a diploma (which will grant her a rather good paying job) as well. She would be going to stay in Italy (which she likes very much) and I would be going to move back to Asia

Why? Easy: when I was single (I like to say "free" ) my lifestyle was completely different from the one I have now. In short: booze, parties, travels and girls (not in that particular order...).

(Love really is a terrible thing )

Many 3rd world countries are (for many reasons, not only economic ones) the ideal playground for that.

If I had a better income I would move out your way for a while.

Well, let's just say that what I am missing from Thailand are certainly not the weather and the food, can't beat home

Frankly (and I know how this will sound to many) the ONLY really good reasons I can see to live in a place like Thailand are cheap booze, cheap girls and the "right" cultural setting for a relatively moneyed fellow -whether a local or a foreigner- to enjoy them both.

Honestly, I have no other reasons to be in Thailand or in other similar 3rd world countries.

But back to the subject its not that hard to get by here. You could get the ED visa and never go to school. Yes its true. I did this very thing. Signed up for a massage school and gave them a deposit and got the paperwork. Got my Visa in the states and when I got to Thailand they changed the schedule and when I said I could not do the new schedule they gave me my deposit back. Even if you had to eat the deposit then its more than offset for the low cost of living here. You just need to look at the overall cost of living. Believe me after living here for a few years going for a tourist visa run will help you keep your sanity and give your diet some much needed variety.

Good luck with your decisions !!!

As I said this is an interesting possibility to secure a pretty good stint in Thailand (and I may be interested in this one) but alas it's no base for a 20 years plan...

I hope I won't need to resort to my Plan B but thanks anyway and good luck to you also, really hope it all works out OK in the end for you expats enjoying your life in LOS!

[appleman_thai]

OK. I am in Bangkok now and am in touch with moving companies so sorry for the late update.

I will try my best to answer the questions posted. Seems like I may have awoken the beast in some people.

I had already made my mind up to go home for St Patricks Day in Ireland (March 17th) so I didnt want to get the 2 month visa in Vientiane. After being turned down for a Non Imm O visa in Dublin that was the final straw!

Anyway, a visa does NOT entitle you to entry into Thailand. The final say is that immigration guy on the border. He has the FINAL say - even if you have a visa. And it would appear that they dont even know their own rules. I think they make them this confusing cause it keeps the power with that guy (plus he can push for some "under the counter" notes!

I dont want to live my life on a 30 day basis not knowing if I will be allowed to stay.

I can take a hint. I am not wanted here. There is no proper visa for someone in my situation. Sure, I can try to circumvent the law and apply as a student, buy a boat etc but they are PLUGGING all these loopholes. What about all those who said it was safe to buy a house with a Thai company and nominees?

Sunbelt - not my favourite company as I had some issues with them when I bought and sold a restaurant here.

I dont want to get married, I dont want to have kids. I will not invest any more money in this country for the time being. The best advice that I have received and that I can give is to NOT invest money in THailand unless you can afford to walk away from it!!!!

But I am not walking away fully. I will not sell my condos - instead I will rent them out. If people are interested then please PM me. I posted a website before but I got a warning so I am reluctant to post again. Suffice to say that both condos are the "BEES KNEES" - meaning that they are dead cool! not just saying that!!! its true!

Something that is almost important is money is time and I have invested a huge amount of time into Thailand. I made the effort to integrate and can speak Thai reasonably well. I can even read and write. I am NOT going to give this up - in fact I have already found a Thai society in Dublin so I will be practising my Thai there!!!

Thailand is STILL a great country. It has issues - like all places - but I think the Thais are too sensitive to criticism - even though it may be constructive. The next few years will be tough in Thailand but if they buckle down and sort out some of the glaring issues then there is a good future here in the medium term.

Ireland (so I am told) is still booming and I hope to catch whats left of teh Celtic Tiger.

[NordicMan]

Heres my story.

......

I explained that I have 2 condos but I cant live in them - how mad is that?!!!

......

The message is clear. Give us your money and get out!

But actually... I think foreigners can buy property in UK as well, without having any long term visa. I can not remember anyone checking my visa when I bought a flat in London. Similar situation to Thailand?

cheers

NM

[mrbojangles]

Heres my story.

......

I explained that I have 2 condos but I cant live in them - how mad is that?!!!

......

The message is clear. Give us your money and get out!

But actually... I think foreigners can buy property in UK as well, without having any long term visa. I can not remember anyone checking my visa when I bought a flat in London. Similar situation to Thailand?

cheers

NM

Yep, Thaksin bought a house in the UK whilst pm in Thailand. We'll sell to anyone with the money, not the visa status

[stingray]

I think the signs are very clear. They want only Tourists, not residents. They want make money with tourists. Spend in a short time a lot of money and then go home. We are foreigners with no rights and we can't change their rules. Everybody should consider to go somewhere else and prepare them self to leave. Try to find the way arround the Immigrationlaws, to stay, will not work out in a longterm. There are many other places in this world. You should choice a country where we can get citizenship later. Otherwise we gonna face the same problem again.

Time is running out!

[TaoNow]

Stingray raises an important option: citizenship. Appleman buys a pair of condos and wants to settle long-term in LOS. If the RTG loosened up the requirements to obtain Thai citizenship, would appleman take the plunge and become a Thai citizen? Even if he had to relinquish his (Irish) citizenship? How many ex-pats would do that to permanently rid themselves of the hassles of immigration and visa runs? What's holding them back?

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't know, TaoNow, but I thought they only issue two Thai citizenships every 5 years, to Asian multibillionaires. It's not really easy to get PR, either, although Camerata has a great thread on how to get PR in the Visa section.

[TaoNow]

I don't know, TaoNow, but I thought they only issue two Thai citizenships every 5 years, to Asian multibillionaires. .

It wasn't easy PeaceBlondie, but I got Thai citizenship for my two kids in the 80's (who were born in Bangkok). It took 5 years for one, and 3 years for the other with numerous visits to Santiban, letters from government officials, etc. Also, I seem to recall reading that William Heinecke got Thai citizenship -- but he would fall into your billionaire exception. I would think there are more ex-pats out there who have gone this route -- but they probably wouldn't want to advertise it. I know I'd have to think long and hard before trading my current citizenship for Thai -- but I think the question gets to essence of the grief the ex-pats go through: Thailand is first and foremost for the Thais.

[BAF]

It wasn't easy PeaceBlondie, but I got Thai citizenship for my two kids in the 80's (who were born in Bangkok). It took 5 years for one, and 3 years for the other with numerous visits to Santiban, letters from government officials, etc.

Assuming their mother is not Thai: how viable a option do you think getting Thai citizenship by birthplace right is for us or yourself?

Assuming their mother is Thai: great, it took 5 and 3 years for 2 Thais to be recognized as Thai!?! That, in of itself, speaks volume about how easy it is to get Thai citizenship for foreigners...

[sriracha john]

Heres my story.

......

I explained that I have 2 condos but I cant live in them - how mad is that?!!!

......

The message is clear. Give us your money and get out!

But actually... I think foreigners can buy property in UK as well, without having any long term visa. I can not remember anyone checking my visa when I bought a flat in London. Similar situation to Thailand?

cheers

NM

Yep, Thaksin bought a house in the UK whilst pm in Thailand. We'll sell to anyone with the money, not the visa status

Google Earth:

thaksin_london.kmz

55 Park Lane, London

Pretty decent neighborhood I take it?

[richard10365]

I have seen the immigration numbers for the past few years from TAT. I wonder how they will change with all these new rules.

[appleman_thai]

I wouldnt want Thai citizenship. An Irish passport is probably the best in the world so there is no way that I would give it up.

I am quite convinced that if I REALLY wanted to stay I could find some way - loopholes, bribes, whatever. If you can afford it then anything is possible here. THats part of the beauty of THailand.....

But I have made my mind up (for now) and I am heading home on March 3rd!

[IMA_FARANG]

Heres my story.

Living in Thailand for 5 and half years.

Worked as Expat with Non Imm B Visa for 4 and half years. Finished last year.

Decided to try early retirement in Thailand. Bought 2 condos - Bangkok and Cha-am.

Initially did 30 day visa runs after my work permit was cancelled and was given 7 days to leave the country!

Applied for Investment Visa on the basis of the condos.

Was messed around for ages by Suan Plu and Hua HIn until they phoned me on Oct 2nd to say that rules had changed and that there was no investment visas anymore (even though I applied in August!).

Went to Laos and got a 2 month tourist visa in Vientiane. Flew home for Xmas and applied at Thai Consulate in Ireland for Non Imm O for 12 months. Refused cause I am not married to a Thai, I am not over 50, I have no Thai children.

Came back on 7th January on 30 day Visa on Arrival (being my first VOA since October 1st).

Went to Nong Khai yesterday to do another visa run (being the 2nd of my permitted 3) but was told that this was my last one.

I argued the point that I should be entitled to another VOA after this one because I had received a proper visa in Vientiane before.

But he wasnt having any of it. What they told me is that if you are on a tourist visa (either VOA or from Thai embassy) that you are only allowed stay 90 days out of 180.

I explained that I have 2 condos but I cant live in them - how mad is that?!!! He asked if I wanted to sell and maybe he could find a buyer!!! I told him to take a hike!

Anyway, I had already made up my mind to leave Thailand within the next month but this experience has just confirmed my belief that there is a witch-hunt on now!

The message is clear. Give us your money and get out!

There are many things in Thailand that are unfair.

I don't particulary like the rules either, and I know for a fact that they are often applied unfairly toward farangs. I've been on that end of the stick many times.

But consider this from the viewpoint of a Thai trying to find a job for a low wage that can barely pay his or her rent.

Precisely what have YOU done to benefit Thailand that did not benefit YOU more first.

You mentioned that you worked in Thailand for 4 and a half years. I'm presuming that means you paid all your taxes in Thailand. I'll give you that break.

I don't understand why you wanted to buy 2 condos, except that ay least one was probably bought to be resold later at a profit. Of course, I'll assume you intended to pay the taxes on your profits.

You seem to think it is unfair that they Thais don't feel grateful to you for living in their country and giving them the pleasure of making you happy. Is that your right?

You say that the message is clear, give us your money and get out. Let me ask you again, truthfully, what did you ever give to Thailand that didn't benefit YOU first. Was any benefit to Thailand only a secondary consideration to your own pleasure first? Be honest about it.

Edited February 9, 2007 by IMA_FARANG

[baboon]

Now this would make for an interesting poll - Would you give up citizenship of your home country if Thailand would grant you citizenship? For me the answer would be a definate NO, even though I cannot stand the UK.

[thai_narak]

Now this would make for an interesting poll - Would you give up citizenship of your home country if Thailand would grant you citizenship? For me the answer would be a definate NO, even though I cannot stand the UK.

I would not even think about it.

[BAF]

Now this would make for an interesting poll - Would you give up citizenship of your home country if Thailand would grant you citizenship? For me the answer would be a definate NO, even though I cannot stand the UK.

I wouldn't find it a particularly interesting poll since the western countries I know of all allow dual citizenship. The countries that make you give up your citizenship, if you were to take up another one, are, AFAIK, all non western. (And doesn't that tell us something..?)

IIRC, Thailand was one of those which weren't allowing dual citizenship, but it is now. The reason, of course, is not some kind of moral question or a pass towards opening to foreigners, it is (written black on white) that they were losing "valuable" citizens (the ones residing AND EARNING AND OR ACCOMPLISHING SOMETHING, abroad)...

I, for one, would not take up Thai citizenship (even if it was as easily obtainable as in my own country) because I wouldn't be proud to be Thai, quite the contrary in fact.

But I definitely would take (and do want) PR as I consider it one of my basic human rights as a spouse of a Thai national and possible father of Thai citizens.

[BAF]

Precisely what have YOU done to benefit Thailand that did not benefit YOU more first.

[...]

You seem to think it is unfair that they Thais don't feel grateful to you for living in their country and giving them the pleasure of making you happy. Is that your right?

You say that the message is clear, give us your money and get out. Let me ask you again, truthfully, what did you ever give to Thailand that didn't benefit YOU first. Was any benefit to Thailand only a secondary consideration to your own pleasure first? Be honest about it.

I must have missed the part where he says he is some kind of missionary...

Why should he be doing things that do not benefit him first?

BTW, Thais living in our own countries aren't requested to be doing things that do not benefit them first and IMO they shouldn't.

That said, I am all for reciprocation. I do believe that's the only effective way of dealing with 3rd world cultures like Thai's...

[NordicMan]

Now this would make for an interesting poll - Would you give up citizenship of your home country if Thailand would grant you citizenship? For me the answer would be a definate NO, even though I cannot stand the UK.

I wouldn't find it a particularly interesting poll since the western countries I know of all allow dual citizenship. The countries that make you give up your citizenship, if you were to take up another one, are, AFAIK, all non western. (And doesn't that tell us something..?)

Norway, one of the top 3 richest countries in the world (depends a bit on how you measure) generally does not allow dual citizenship. That said, there are some room for exceptions

In English:

http://www.udi.no/templates/Tema.aspx?id=7397

If you wish to become a Norwegian citizen, you normally have to renounce your previous citizenship.

rgds

nm

[BAF]

Norway, one of the top 3 richest countries in the world (depends a bit on how you measure) generally does not allow dual citizenship. That said, there are some room for exceptions.

As I wrote "the western countries I know of", I didn't know about Norway's laws in this regard.

Anyway, to prove the important points: can you confirm that a spouse of a Norwegian citizen can, with relative ease, get PR and, if so he/she wishes, citizenship?

Now, to get back briefly to the dual citizenship issue, like you say there is some room for exceptions. You can hold dual citizenship in Norway:

- if you are born with dual nationality because you have Norwegian and foreign citizenship through your parents (for example a Norwegian mother and a foreign father)

- if you are born to Norwegian parents in a country that applies the territorial principle (anyone born in a country becomes a citizen of that country) In that case, you can have both Norwegian citizenship and citizenship of the country of your birth.

- if you have applied for Norwegian citizenship and it is not possible for you to renounce your original citizenship

- if a child born before 1 Septmeber 2006 becomes Norwegian by notification.

All of this has never been possible in Thailand under their previous no dual citizenship laws (which, BTW, have been changed very recently and for the reasons outlined, reasons which would hardly apply to Norway...).

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Now this would make for an interesting poll - Would you give up citizenship of your home country if Thailand would grant you citizenship? For me the answer would be a definate NO, even though I cannot stand the UK.

I wouldn't find it a particularly interesting poll since the western countries I know of all allow dual citizenship. The countries that make you give up your citizenship, if you were to take up another one, are, AFAIK, all non western. (And doesn't that tell us something..?)

Norway, one of the top 3 richest countries in the world (depends a bit on how you measure) generally does not allow dual citizenship. That said, there are some room for exceptions

In English:

http://www.udi.no/templates/Tema.aspx?id=7397

If you wish to become a Norwegian citizen, you normally have to renounce your previous citizenship.

rgds

nm

Norway is a well run country. They will be relatively wealthy with their oil monies. You have to like high taxes though.

12 to 24% VAT

37% low income bracket

48% high income bracket

Not sure I would choose to be a taxable citizen though.

Norway ranks pretty high on the economic misery index. Ironically Thailand ranks fairly well

http://members.forbes.com/global/2006/0522/032.html

Edited February 9, 2007 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[NordicMan]

Norway, one of the top 3 richest countries in the world (depends a bit on how you measure) generally does not allow dual citizenship. That said, there are some room for exceptions.

As I wrote "the western countries I know of", I didn't know about Norway's laws in this regard.

Anyway, to prove the important points: can you confirm that a spouse of a Norwegian citizen can, with relative ease, get PR and, if so he/she wishes, citizenship?

Now, to get back briefly to the dual citizenship issue, like you say there is some room for exceptions. You can hold dual citizenship in Norway:

- if you are born with dual nationality because you have Norwegian and foreign citizenship through your parents (for example a Norwegian mother and a foreign father)

- if you are born to Norwegian parents in a country that applies the territorial principle (anyone born in a country becomes a citizen of that country) In that case, you can have both Norwegian citizenship and citizenship of the country of your birth.

- if you have applied for Norwegian citizenship and it is not possible for you to renounce your original citizenship

- if a child born before 1 Septmeber 2006 becomes Norwegian by notification.

All of this has never been possible in Thailand under their previous no dual citizenship laws (which, BTW, have been changed very recently and for the reasons outlined, reasons which would hardly apply to Norway...).

My understanding is that you can get Norwegian PR with ease if (these are the key, relevant conditions)

- you are married to a Norwegian citizen

- you live in Norway, with your Norwegian spouse, continuously for 4 years

- the Norwegian spouse have his/her own accomodation and a job

- you do not spend more than 7 months outside Norway in total during this period

- you do not have a single trip of more than 3 months outside Norway during this period

If you live with your parents, it's difficult. If you don't have a job, it's difficult. If you, like me, move around with work frequently, it is very difficult.

And, like Thailand and UK, (AFAIK) you can buy a house without a visa. It is your own responsibility to consider whether to buy a property or not, if you don't have a visa. I do not see that Thailand is in any unique position in that respect. We also do not automatically give out any visa to people who invest in property (e.g. Malaysia style).

cheers nm

Edited February 9, 2007 by NordicMan

[BAF]

My understanding is that you can get Norwegian PR with ease if (these are the key, relevant conditions)

- you are married to a Norwegian citizen

- you live in Norway, with your Norwegian spouse, continuously for 4 years

- the Norwegian spouse have his/her own accomodation and a job

- you do not spend more than 7 months outside Norway in total during this period

- you do not have a single trip of more than 3 months outside Norway during this period

If you live with your parents, it's difficult. If you don't have a job, it's difficult. If you, like me, move around with work frequently, it is very difficult.

You left out, amongst the other exemptions from the subsistence requirements:

- You are the spouse or (EVEN!) cohabitant of a Norwegian citizen, provided that both parties are aged 23 or over, or the child of a Norwegian citizen

- There are strong humanitarian considerations

And, like Thailand and UK, (AFAIK) you can buy a house without a visa. It is your own responsibility to consider whether to buy a property or not, if you don't have a visa.

You meant to say like the UK (and many other, if not all, western countries, for that matter) and UNLIKE Thailand where you CANNOT buy a house (or property in general), just condos and under very strict and limiting provisions.

I do not see that Thailand is in any unique position in that respect.

SORRY?

Thailand is certainly not in any unique position if you compare it to the other 3rd morld countries, but it definitely is if you compare it to western countries like I guess it's here implied.

They give out a max of 100 PR per year for each nationality and comprehending the total quota for whatever reason you are asking your PR for!

Besides, the trickiest part is to comply with their uninterrupted continuous stay of x years requirement as it is VERY difficult (and going to be ever more difficult) to achieve that.

We also do not automatically give out any visa to people who invest in property (e.g. Malaysia style).

Norway doesn't need to...

All in all, I don't get your point.

If staying in Thailand, for a spouse of a Thai citizen, was half as easy as staying (and getting the many benefits and rights) in Norway for a spouse of a Norwegian citizen you wouldn't hear many people complaining about the Thais' unfairness and sheer stupidity.

Why stupidity are you asking?

Easy (and I thougth very obvious and clear for all to see): because while Thai spouses of Norwegian citizens are usually TAKING from Norway, Norwegian spouses of Thai citizens are usually GIVING to Thailand and because Norway is a country which grants many rights and benefits to its citizens and their spouses and Thailand is a country which grants very few rights and benefits to its citizens and almost none to their spouses.

I can't believe I really have to point all of this out...

[Maestro]

...[immigration] phoned me on Oct 2nd to say that rules had changed and that there was no investment visas anymore...

...got a 2 month tourist visa in Vientiane. Flew home for Xmas...

Came back on 7th January on 30 day Visa on Arrival (being my first VOA since October 1st).

Went to Nong Khai yesterday to do another visa run (being the 2nd of my permitted 3) but was told that this was my last one.

But he wasnt having any of it. What they told me is that if you are on a tourist visa (either VOA or from Thai embassy) that you are only allowed stay 90 days out of 180.

Appleman, first I’d like to say I’m sorry for the way you were made to miss out on an investment visa. Even if your condos perhaps did not qualify (must be new condo purchased from developer) Immigration could have told you earlier so that you could have evaluated other options. If your condos did qualify, you have indeed been treated unjustly, in my opinion.

On another note, I would like to ask you a couple of clarifications on your entries and exits, if you don’t mind, as your story might qualify for inclusion in my collection of actual cases of how Immigration counts the 90 days permitted stay within 6 months. From the one case I have already listed there you see that I like to give a list of the actual dates. Your stay on the tourist visa should obviously not have been counted, but since they did I would like to mention those dates too in my case study.

To complete the history of your stays in Thailand since 1 OCT 2006, therefore, I should be grateful if you replaced the question marks with the actual information in the following:

??? 2006 entry, ??? visa

?? OCT 2006, exit

?? OCT 2006, entry, tourist visa

?? DEC 2006, exit

07 JAN 2007, entry, visa-exempt

04 FEB 2007, ???

It is not quite clear to me what happened to you in Nong Khai on 4 FEB. Did you exit and re-enter and were given a new visa-exempt stamp for 30 days, i.e. until 06 MAR, and tell you that this would be the last one?

If on 4 FEB you were denied a 30-day visa-exempt entry, your case qualifies for my collection, otherwise I would have to wait until you tried a new visa-exempt entry on or before 6 MAR but from another post of yours it seems that you do not want to risk that and are leaving Thailand in March.

--

Maestro

[NordicMan]

My understanding is that you can get Norwegian PR with ease if (these are the key, relevant conditions)

- you are married to a Norwegian citizen

- you live in Norway, with your Norwegian spouse, continuously for 4 years

- the Norwegian spouse have his/her own accomodation and a job

- you do not spend more than 7 months outside Norway in total during this period

- you do not have a single trip of more than 3 months outside Norway during this period

If you live with your parents, it's difficult. If you don't have a job, it's difficult. If you, like me, move around with work frequently, it is very difficult.

You left out, amongst the other exemptions from the subsistence requirements:

- You are the spouse or (EVEN!) cohabitant of a Norwegian citizen, provided that both parties are aged 23 or over, or the child of a Norwegian citizen

- There are strong humanitarian considerations

Agree, but these are not very relevant for us on this forum. Strong humanitarian reasons are usually invoked for asylum seekers and refugees and their families. More relevant to us - a Thai woman married to a Norwegian, who already live in Norway and gives birth in Norway, then get divorced before receiving the PR. In this case, the woman is usually allowed to stay.

The issues for unemployed but married/cohabitants are illustrated in the examples below:

(Background: To apply for a one-year resident visa, the person must enter Norway on a 7-day TypeD visa. If the person arrives on a regular Schengen tourist visa, she can not apply for a resident visa)

Situation 1: You are unemployed and live in Norway, she live in Thailand. You get married in Thailand. In this case, she will not get a Type D visa, so can not stay in Norway. She can get a tourist visa to come see you, but cannot extend this indefinitely.

Situation 2: You both live in Thailand, married or cohabiting. You lose your job and go back to Norway. Your partner may get a Type D visa (valid for 7 days only), but if you do not have a job before the TypeD expire, she will have to return. Again, she can come on tourist visa in the meantime.

Situation 3: You live in Norway but don't want to get married, just to cohabit. If she's not already in Norway, she will of course not be allowed to enter the country just to cohabit with you. She may see you on a tourist visa, but this can't be extended for a longer period.

Situation 4: You are employed, she live with you in Norway, then you lose your job. In this case, the above paragraph will be invoked, she will not be kicked out.

I was in situation 2 myself, except living in Singapore not Thailand. When my company closed down and I returned to Norway, she came along on a TypeD visa. If I didn't find a job within 7 days (which I did), she would have to leave Norway until I did so. if i did not find a job, this could have been delayed by submitting an application anyway, as she would be allowed to stay until the application had been processed (and rejected).

And, like Thailand and UK, (AFAIK) you can buy a house without a visa. It is your own responsibility to consider whether to buy a property or not, if you don't have a visa.

You meant to say like the UK (and many other, if not all, western countries, for that matter) and UNLIKE Thailand where you CANNOT buy a house (or property in general), just condos and under very strict and limiting provisions.

I do not see that Thailand is in any unique position in that respect.

SORRY?

Thailand is certainly not in any unique position if you compare it to the other 3rd morld countries, but it definitely is if you compare it to western countries like I guess it's here implied.

My point was not related to the visa. My point is that many countries allow you to buy a property even if you do not have a visa to stay in that country. Many people buy property in Thailand, then get upset because they are not allowed to live in it afterwards. This situation is not unique to Thailand. I was a bit imprecise in the use of the word "house". That was not the key point though. I am aware of the propery purchase rules in Thailand regarding ownership of condos, land etc.

Agree?

We also do not automatically give out any visa to people who invest in property (e.g. Malaysia style).

Norway doesn't need to...

All in all, I don't get your point.

If staying in Thailand, for a spouse of a Thai citizen, was half as easy as staying (and getting the many benefits and rights) in Norway for a spouse of a Norwegian citizen you wouldn't hear many people complaining about the Thais' unfairness and sheer stupidity.

Why stupidity are you asking?

Easy (and I thougth very obvious and clear for all to see): because while Thai spouses of Norwegian citizens are usually TAKING from Norway, Norwegian spouses of Thai citizens are usually GIVING to Thailand and because Norway is a country which grants many rights and benefits to its citizens and their spouses and Thailand is a country which grants very few rights and benefits to its citizens and almost none to their spouses.

I can't believe I really have to point all of this out...

I don't think it was unclear to me in the first place, and can't remember to ask for it to be clarified. I do of course know that it's much easier for a spouse of a Norwegian to move to Norway, than it is for a spouse of a Thai to move to Thailand. I do agree that the rules are unfair, and appears not very clever.

I do point out that Norway have a similar issue as Thailand - you are fairly free to buy a house (more free than in Thailand), but that doesn't mean you necessarily will be allowed to stay there.

I still believe that Thailand is not very unique in its visa rules or property ownership rules. Slightly irrelevant, but funny example: It's only until a few years ago that a foreign woman with Singaporean husband could get a Singaporean PR, but a foreign man with Singaporean wife could NOT get a PR.

thanks

nm

[BAF]

Agree, but these are not very relevant for us on this forum. Strong humanitarian reasons are usually invoked for asylum seekers and refugees and their families.

Nope, they are mentioned separately as another 2 cases which grant exemption (and their own class of PR indeed). So "strong humanitarian reasons" alludes to something completely different.

I have taken the above from official Norwegian websites.

BTW, this of the asylum seekers and refugees is another area where Thailand completely disregards the international obligations they are under and which they themselves have signed.

Compare their misdeeds in this area to what Norway, a country with a population of 5 just million, does...

The issues for unemployed but married/cohabitants are illustrated in the examples below:

Nope, you're talking about visas and temporary permits of stay and I was talking about permanent residence.

Anyway, the issues are similar and in any case is not of much interest, for our argument, to go into them in too deep details if we both agree (like it seems below) that whether we are talking about visas or PR, Norwegian laws and Thai laws are worlds apart.

My point was not related to the visa. My point is that many countries allow you to buy a property even if you do not have a visa to stay in that country. Many people buy property in Thailand, then get upset because they are not allowed to live in it afterwards. This situation is not unique to Thailand. I was a bit imprecise in the use of the word "house". That was not the key point though. I am aware of the propery purchase rules in Thailand regarding ownership of condos, land etc.

Agree?

[...]

I do point out that Norway have a similar issue as Thailand - you are fairly free to buy a house (more free than in Thailand), but that doesn't mean you necessarily will be allowed to stay there.

Well, we were definitely NOT talking about the issue of visas in regard to ownership of property, it all started with the question of the dual citizenship (at least the argument amongst us)

On the point that many countries allow you to buy a property even if that doesn't grant you a permit to stay in that country yes, I agree with you, it's true. My own homecountry allows it as well.

Where things are different from, for example, our own 2 countries and a country like Thailand is that Norway and Italy aren't changing their immigration laws (and most importantly their interpretation and everyday practical application) every other day.

A lot of people have bought property in Thailand because they were legally allowed to stay in Thailand and then suddenly it all changed without provisions for the ones caught in the middle (which is all too very typical of banana republic 3rd world countries).

Heck, at first even those specifically on a investment visa (CONDOS) weren't grandfathered!

I don't think it was unclear to me in the first place, and can't remember to ask for it to be clarified. I do of course know that it's much easier for a spouse of a Norwegian to move to Norway, than it is for a spouse of a Thai to move to Thailand. I do agree that the rules are unfair, and appears not very clever.

Very well then, we have made this question clear...

I still believe that Thailand is not very unique in its visa rules or property ownership rules.

No one ever said that.

Thailand's visa rules are very common in other 3rd world countries and Thailand's property ownership rules (in regard to visas) are common also with other western countries BUT with the huge exception that all you can own in Thailand is a condo (and with many limitations to boot).

Slightly irrelevant, but funny example: It's only until a few years ago that a foreign woman with Singaporean husband could get a Singaporean PR, but a foreign man with Singaporean wife could NOT get a PR.

Singapore is not a western country nor, exactly for issue like these, a 1st world country...

And BTW, Thailand still has parts of the immigration laws which discriminate between males and females.

Nothing funny in this, just further proof of how much growing they have to do to exit the full fledged 3rd world country status they firmly and "proudly" hold.

The only problem is, they are going everywhere but in the right direction...

[appleman_thai]

There are many things in Thailand that are unfair.

I don't particulary like the rules either, and I know for a fact that they are often applied unfairly toward farangs. I've been on that end of the stick many times.

But consider this from the viewpoint of a Thai trying to find a job for a low wage that can barely pay his or her rent.

Precisely what have YOU done to benefit Thailand that did not benefit YOU more first.

You mentioned that you worked in Thailand for 4 and a half years. I'm presuming that means you paid all your taxes in Thailand. I'll give you that break.

I don't understand why you wanted to buy 2 condos, except that ay least one was probably bought to be resold later at a profit. Of course, I'll assume you intended to pay the taxes on your profits.

You seem to think it is unfair that they Thais don't feel grateful to you for living in their country and giving them the pleasure of making you happy. Is that your right?

You say that the message is clear, give us your money and get out. Let me ask you again, truthfully, what did you ever give to Thailand that didn't benefit YOU first. Was any benefit to Thailand only a secondary consideration to your own pleasure first? Be honest about it.

IMA_FARANG,

I think you are off on your high horse and need to be a little more honest with yourself before you start on others!

Sure, I look after number 1. Is that wrong? I certainly dont think so.

Yes, I enjoyed my time here and have a genuine affection for Thailand. If you read my posts properly you will get this point and I have not gone overly critical against Thailand.

I would like to think that I have contributed in a positive manner too. Most of the guys who worked for me have become very succesful and I like to think that I had a helping hand.

Yes, I paid my tax fully. Yes, I also will have to pay any tax IF I sell my Condos (which I dont intend to!).

IMHO there is a genuine effort to reduce the number of foreigners living in Thailand.

Unfortunately, it has to be said that the majority of foreigners living here are in the "undesirable" category and therefore it is a understandable that they want to control this. But its a case of the baby out with the bathwater. Their country, their decision. Fine by me.

And perhaps you should take off your rose coloured glasses and see things for what they are. or maybe you just dont want to face the reality?

[Jockstar]

After reading some of these posts. It makes me glad i left in October last year. I lived in LOS for 5 years on tourist visas. I am married now though and was for a year before i left but was still a tourist. I know of people who have had to get married to their partner just to stay in the country. I have slao spoke to a mate of mine who says that some of the football teams in the Casual league have lost players because of the new laws. So struggle to field a team. Don't know how true this is. But thats what i have been told.

[Jockstar]

Unfortunately, it has to be said that themajority of foreigners living here are in the "undesirable" category

How do you come up with a statement like that? Do you have evidence to support this? Surely you meant a minority?