Pumping system

[nitecm]

8 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

You folks are really overthinking this I think. Small piston pump run by belt off a pulley to a small Honda motor, all secured to one of those very inexpensive metal frames. Job done.  For a more permanent installation build a cement pad with mounting bolts and vibration dampeners.

 

That's what you want, right there:

 

 

Yes if can get a small  piston will solve the problem.I want to build it cost effectively. I have 3 parcel of land with 6 rai per parcel and grow with about 150 trees per parcel  so no need so much water. Thanks 

[nitecm]

A piston pump with a diesel engine is a good solution. Anyone know where to get these item around Chiangmai and how much is the cost

[thoongfoned]

if you want to move the pump around (simple piston pump starting from 2,500 baht) ( different plots.take home ect..) why not look at the kubota 100/110/120 cc diesel engine or the cheaper copy goldenbow. to drive the pump.kubota will start from 40,000 goldenbow from 18,000 baht. we have been using goldenbow for the past 7 years. fabric hose for water, water sit in a plastic tank,say 2000 litre dos brand starting from 2000 baht. build a frame with wheels for engine.....

we run the goldenbow engines for 100's of hours every month, cheap on fuel too.

[thoongfoned]

kubota shop.

for the goldenbow dohome, dohome will sell the piston pumps too. maybe the hose, and for sure the water tanks.

[tryasimight]

16 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

Hardly an overkill if the op selected a multi stage submersible to suit his demand and head. Something from the Pedrollo or Chinese Sangom stable would suit the application. Boiler feed is probably the least common application for the huge range of multi stage pumps available.

Most common type for boiler feedwater pumps though. I'm talking power station type boilers not small domestic/ commercial types. 

[tryasimight]

15 hours ago, djayz said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly, in plain English, do you mean by the last two sentences? 

That 5,000 l / hour at 6 bar is

1) too much for those pipes or

2) not enough?

Just trying to understand it as I have zero experience with pumping water yet (I need to sort this out in the next 2 to 3 months for our place in Korat, hence my curiosity). 

The flow through any pipe is subject to different forces. One obviously is the power applied to the pump.  Another is the flowing resistance loss.  What this means is in very simple terms us that it is relatively harder to force a fluid to flow through a smaller pipe than a large one for a constant power input.  This loss is multiplied by the length of the pipe.  I'm guessing you are looking at a pipe length of 150-200m for a vertical lift equivalent of 60m. I'm assuming you are not pumping completely vertically but on the ground up a hill. 

200m of 1/2" pipe will have a lot of resistance. 

For your application I think the 12v pumps you are considering are really just toys and will give you problems over time.  That's just my opinion though. 

As a previous poster said,  look at a positive displacement pump. 

Ask the sales people for the pump curve. They can look daunting at first but really not that difficult to understand. 

There will be a point on the pump curve showing the head capability.  Cross reference this to you flow which is roughly 20 litres an hour and voila you now have the size of the pump and the power input required. 

Please nite: 20 liters per hour is over 24 hour time frame.  If you want to stand and water each tree over a four hour period then you now need a 1250 litre an hour pump.  Very, very different duty and pump required. 

I'd be looking at 40mm pipe minimum as a gut feeling. Don't forget to buy the pipe rated for the pressure -you're looking at nearly 100psi in the old money. High pressure pvc tubing might work if glued correctly otherwise agricultural type flexible piping or reinforced hose. 

 

If you do use a positive displacement pump make sure you have a pressure switch on it. If for any reason the outlet pipe is blocked something is going to break.  Hopefully just  a burnt belt.... 

[tryasimight]

horsepower_water_gpm_head.png (798×610)

[tifino]

24 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

horsepower_water_gpm_head.png (798×610)

... been trying your uploaded file, but the Extension is still not correct, for opening it

 

as seen...

1798632789_horsepower_water_gpm_head_png(798610).f68c0647804612091d184935696cf13d

 

 

so, with thanks to what you'd already written, I simply Googled you term "horsepower_water_gpm_head.png" 

to then take a punt on which Graph looks best to work with...

[nitecm]

3 hours ago, tryasimight said:

 This loss is multiplied by the length of the pipe.  I'm guessing you are looking at a pipe length of 150-200m for a vertical lift equivalent of 60m. I'm assuming you are not pumping completely vertically but on the ground up a hill. 

200m of 1/2" pipe will have a lot of resistance. 

For your application I think the 12v pumps you are considering are really just toys and will give you problems over time.  That's just my opinion though. 

 

There will be a point on the pump curve showing the head capability.  Cross reference this to you flow which is roughly 20 litres an hour and voila you now have the size of the pump and the power input required. 

Please nite: 20 liters per hour is over 24 hour time frame.  If you want to stand and water each tree over a four hour period then you now need a 1250 litre an hour pump.  Very, very different duty and pump required. 

I'd be looking at 40mm pipe minimum as a gut feeling. Don't forget to buy the pipe rated for the pressure -you're looking at nearly 100psi in the old money. High pressure pvc tubing might work if glued correctly otherwise agricultural type flexible piping or reinforced hose. 

 

If you do use a positive displacement pump make sure you have a pressure switch on it. If for any reason the outlet pipe is blocked something is going to break.  Hopefully just  a burnt belt.... 

Thanks

Mostly used flexible reinforced hose. At the 60 m height and  40 m height will has a tank at each location so only 40 % need to pump up to  60 m height and 60 % at the height of  40 m .Each 1000  to 2000 liters Pvc  tank just cost 3000 to 5000 baht . The outlet hose will open all the time.

[scubastephen]

I plan to use a submersible pump because it do no need priming . The water is from the river which is about 0.5 meter below the rice field so I need to dip a well about 2 m deep and pipe the water from the river. The river about 20 m from the rice field . I only need 4 or 5 ton of water for 200 trees .The height of the slope is about 60m

You can use other types of pumps, just use a foot valve at the bottom of your inlet pipe , so once primed the water stays in the pipe. Same principle as a windmill.

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[nitecm]

17 hours ago, scubastephen said:

You can use other types of pumps, just use a foot valve at the bottom of your inlet pipe , so once primed the water stays in the pipe. Same principle as a windmill.

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Thanks 

If have foot valve can use other types of pump with enough power . It may be cheaper as well

[carlyai]

@nitecm You seem to have it all figured out.

Another thing to keep in mind: when you pump up the 60 m with tanks and pumps at different levels, you should make sure that those concrete rings or tanks you are using can store a few days of water. Probably more would be better.

One day your pump inlet in the river will be blocked with weed or something and you will have to clear it, therefore your pump could be not working for a few days.
You could have 2 inlets on the pump maybe 1 meter apart, and if one inlet got blocked the other would still work. I've never done that, but it could help with blockages.




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[nitecm]

34 minutes ago, carlyai said:

@nitecm You seem to have it all figured out.

Another thing to keep in mind: when you pump up the 60 m with tanks and pumps at different levels, you should make sure that those concrete rings or tanks you are using can store a few days of water. Probably more would be better.

One day your pump inlet in the river will be blocked with weed or something and you will have to clear it, therefore your pump could be not working for a few days.
You could have 2 inlets on the pump maybe 1 meter apart, and if one inlet got blocked the other would still work. I've never done that, but it could help with blockages.




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One thing still not sure. Will it very difficult to crank the engine because the pump is pressurized.

[carlyai]

I think you would start the engine with no pump load, wait till the voltage builds up to a steady 220V and then put the pump on load. I don't know what engine you ended up using. I'll have a look back.

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[Fruit Trader]

Now we have had the super pump suggestions,  here's a fairly cheap redneck Thai solution to the problem.

1.5hp (85M head) Chinese deep well pump inside large diameter screen connected to rated pressure PE pipe. Job done. All readily available in the LOS.

 

US quick fit version used for irrigation.

 

 

[carlyai]

@nitecm Sorry but can I make another suggestion?

 

There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum, so when you think you have it all sorted, draw it, (pipe size, pump model, length of pipe in water, pipe height on each lift, tanks capacities, diesel/petrol engine model size, electrical wiring set up, non return valves etc.

If you do this before you start to build it, people here will help you sort out any problems.

 

It's a big project and you want it to work well. [emoji3]

 

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EDIT

 

I sent this before I saw fruitrader video. Looks like a good solution.

[carlyai]

I really like that video from Fruit Trader.

You can also buy the big pipe hammer in Thailand and Star Pickets from the same place. If you used a couple of long star pickets welded together, they would grab the river- bed soil more.

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[RKASA]

On 7/28/2018 at 5:28 PM, CLW said:

I'm not an expert would with a difference of 60 m you would several pumps at different levels (plus eventually reservoir tanks) unless you have a very huge diameter pipe, not to mention the sufficient pressure and necessary pump size.

Pumps mfg and also online have charts that can tell you what you need.  5000l a day is not hard and 60m is not much.  The only part that counts is the head of level between the top of the water and the top of the tank - that is where the work is done.  Water above the pump does not count - so mean low water level to top of tank is the head and look for 220v/1ph and get the required Hp pump. It will also give a flow rate to match up to duty cycle (time off and on) I would say in your case the weeds are going to be a bigger problem then you might know.  Sink a well next to the pond and set it up turn it on with a float switch and forget about it for years at a time.

[djayz]

4 hours ago, carlyai said:

I really like that video from Fruit Trader.

You can also buy the big pipe hammer in Thailand and Star Pickets from the same place. If you used a couple of long star pickets welded together, they would grab the river- bed soil more.

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Where can I find star pickets in Thailand? I don't believe I've ever seen them here. 

[carlyai]

Where can I find star pickets in Thailand? I don't believe I've ever seen them here. 

www.ppfence.com

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[VocalNeal]

Ausfence if they are still around.

[nitecm]

On 8/10/2018 at 5:21 PM, Fruit Trader said:

Now we have had the super pump suggestions,  here's a fairly cheap redneck Thai solution to the problem.

1.5hp (85M head) Chinese deep well pump inside large diameter screen connected to rated pressure PE pipe. Job done. All readily available in the LOS.

 

US quick fit version used for irrigation.

Thanks

This is a good solution

 

It used a 220V ac submersible pump-and can get it about 5000  to 8000 baht from aliexpress   and need a  1.5 kw generator. If use petrol engine just cost 7000 baht

I only need to choose the correct pump with a head of more than 60m

 

[CLW]

 

You should look at the pump diagram if there's any.

[thoongfoned]

with the above products you tend to get what you pay for..... we have been using the franklin submerge pumps for years, 1hp will start from 12,000 ish baht depending were it was assembled. again with the generator i would go with a name you can "trust" over the cheapest one on the market, usless of course you can fix it as and when it will not start.

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, thoongfoned said:

with the above products you tend to get what you pay for..... we have been using the franklin submerge pumps for years, 1hp will start from 12,000 ish baht depending were it was assembled. again with the generator i would go with a name you can "trust" over the cheapest one on the market, usless of course you can fix it as and when it will not start.

Always best to use quality pumps like Franklin in a deep well bore - http://www.franklinthailand.com. On the surface where pumps are easy to change you can save a few bucks and often get lucky.

 

Down in Chanthaburi we have a 45M 6 inch deep well for irrigation which at the time of drilling got a Ying Ding super Chinese well pump installed by my cheap Charlie family. The pump lasted about 5 years before disintegrating and leaving its multi stage modules on the well bottom which we managed to fish out. The pump casing had been made using mild steel and coated to look like stainless.

[Fruit Trader]

@nitecm

 

I think its time for you to visit local pump stores and see what available for your budget and 60M spec. Most bore pumps have their starting components in separate control box.

 

 

Chinese deep well pump

[Wanderer555]

On 8/3/2018 at 11:42 AM, lannarebirth said:

 

A centrifugal pump to pump 60 meters straight up a hill?  I wouldn't think so.

The use of centrifugal pumps to pump to a height of greater than 60 meters is quite common, one just needs to match the correct pump(s) to meet the required head & system pressure while maintaining the desired flow rate. 

In both Wildland firefighting operations and High rise firefighting operations, it is normal practice to use centrifugal pumps (the most common type of pump in US based fire departments) either with a single pump or in series (using multiple stages on the
same power source or 2+ individual pump/power units) to pump water to very great heights.

It should be noted that as the Head (height of fluid to be pumped) increases the Flow will decrease.

-------------

For the OP, there seems to be 3 choices. Option (1) Have a low rated pump (head rating) work for an extended time to either directly irrigate the plants,  or fill a hilltop storage tank that could then be used for irrigation needs, Option (2) use a higher rated pump (head rating) for a short duration to fill a storage tank, and then irrigate using the stored water. Option 3 would be to use a small pump at the rice paddy and then provide a booster pump at about 30 meters to boost the flow up the remainder of the hill. This is common agriculture, industry, and wildland firefighting operations.

This option also provides the option of using smaller pumps that are less costly to purchase, operate and repair. Whatever your choice, I would recommend that you try to maintain the normal operation of the pump(s) at no more than 70-80 percent maximum operating capacity as this will increase longevity, and reduce maintenance costs.

 

Choice of pump will depend on supply needs, head, budget and the time one has to monitor the system, and of course availability of the pump here in Thailand. Hope this helps, and good luck with the project.

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

[impulse]

I'm with Wanderer555  The OP needs to look at the whole system and not just the pump.  Not only does he need to pump water up a hill, he needs to control the whole mess.

 

He's looking for 5000 liters per day (about 1 Gallon per minute) at 60M (200' of TDH) plus friction losses which should be pretty low unless he uses tiny piping.  It's going to be tough to find in most centrifugal product lines, especially that low rate.  Hydraulic HP will be about 1 GPM x 200' TDH/ (3960 * Efficiency), so around 0.1 HP or 75 watts.  Again, that's in the hobby range and it's going to be hard to find such a small pump system.  

 

The normal solution is a bigger pump (still less than 1HP) that runs intermittently to fill a tank at the top, then pull water off the tank to meet the sprinkling schedule.  That puts the application well within the range of a typical household system for wells up to 60 meters deep. Being in the mainstream, there will be scads of choices, the economies of scale will make that a cheaper install than something strange, and control systems will be extremely simple- as they need to be for a typical family home.

 

He can use a deepwell submersible, or a surface located pump that will be well within its self priming abilities if he can place it close to the source.  The control system will turn the pump on when the tank needs to be refilled, and turn it off when it's full.  Just like a household system.  Eezy peezy, with thousands of choices and lots of people with spare parts and the know how to fix it.

 

BTW, I suspect he's going to find out he may not need more than 5,000 liters per day, but he will find it handy to get more on the days he does need it.  Or, more precisely, he won't be pumping 1 GPM for 24 hours.  He'll be pumping 10 GPM for 2-1/2 hours.  Which is a different animal.