Note In My Passport

[ciooni]

When the person in your example enters on August 25, 2007 he will be allowed 11 days only (up to 90 days during the period 13 Mar-12 Sep) not 30, not 19,

The officer (and the passport holder) knows how many days are remamining, he only needs to look at the previous note near the entry stamp, similar to the one the OP posted.

Don't forget that the permission of stay and its length are at the sole discretion of the Immigration official. If he gives less and not the right expected amount, hardly anybody can argue anything.

[Maestro]

...he only needs to look at the previous note near the entry stamp, similar to the one the OP posted.

That note in the OP’s passport so far looks like a one-off thing; nobody else has mentioned it yet.

And at any rate, it doesn’t really help to calculate the number of remaining days allowed – and thus the new “admitted until” date – correctly, i.e. taking into account the 6-month period until the new “admitted until” date, not the period prior to arrival.

Don't forget that the permission of stay and its length are at the sole discretion of the Immigration official. If he gives less and not the right expected amount, hardly anybody can argue anything.

That’s right, and that’s where it may end up at. Regardless whether or how long a tourist has previously stayed visa-exempt in Thailand, the Immigration officer can admit him for any number of days from 1 to 30, or deny him entry. From National Police Order 608/2006:

...permission of which must not exceed thirty days per entry...

--

Maestro

[ciooni]

I think that you make it more difficult than it really is.

Say, the first entry after 1st October 2006 is 10 December 2006

Periods of six months to consider are:

10 Dec 06 - 9 Jun 07

10 Jun 07 - 9 Dec 07

10 Dec 07 - 9 Jun 08

and so on...

Where's the problem?!

In any given period the immigration has to check the number of days the foreigner stayed in Thailand and subtract this number from 90 to actually know how many days are still allowed.

I think all Immigration check-points will progressively adopt the practice the OP posted, because it is really effective and makes subsequent calculations much easier. They only need to check the last stamp (note) and the 6 months expiration day.

But anyway, as you also point out, it's always... up to them!

[Maestro]

I think that you make it more difficult than it really is.

If it were easy, why did it, in this example reported by Sunbelt, take immigration officers 20 minutes to add up the days, and still come up with the wrong result?

It is complicated, it is a mess, and they will find a face-saving way to abolish it. Until then, we shall hear a few more horror stories on the subject.

--

Maestro

[ciooni]

I don't think it's very easy, but it will be easier when all Immigration check-points start doing as the OP mentioned.

At each visa-exempt entry they number the stamp in sequence in any six month period, and they write the remaining days in a note next to the stamp.

So next time they don't need to make a calculation from scratch and look at many previous stamps, but only check:

- the last numbered stamp (if any)

- the note nearby showing remaining days and

- the actual length of the last stay;

(all in the same page of passport)

- the proper six month frame.

and then put a new numbered stamp and a new note on the passport accordingly.

Well... just a guess

Edited February 6, 2007 by ciooni

[Maestro]

I don't think it's very easy, but it will be easier when all Immigration check-points start doing as the OP mentioned.

They still would have to be able to count the days correctly, and Sunbelt’s post shows that not all can. Just wait and see what happens. Useless to speculate at this point, except that I predict that before this year ends the 90-day limitation in its current form will have been abolished.

--

Maestro

[sriracha john]

Tropo, Hippo, and other interested parties: attached is the Excel spreadsheet I am using for my calculations.

The formula in cell E4 works only if you have the Add-In “Analysis ToolPack” installed. Otherwise, use the formula B9-183 or B9-182, whichever, depending on the value in B9, gives you the correct date for E4.

--

Maestro

and we're expecting that the lone Immigration official at the Chong Mok, Ubon Ratchathani border crossing shack stands a snowball's chance in he11 with sorting this out?

Edited February 7, 2007 by sriracha john

[tropo]

Adding all days stayed during this period gives a total of 93 days (22+21+23+11+15), therefore on the 25 August this hypothetical tourist should not be allowed entry and the earliest legal entry would be on 28 August, and on that day he would be allowed a maximum stay of 19 days to 15 September. i.e. During the 180 days from 20 March to 15 September he has reached his 90 day limit.

Good try, my friend, but wrong.

I arrive on 28 AUG, you give 19 days and admit me until 15 SEP. This means that you have to look at the 6-month period from 16 MAR until 15 SEP.

Now, you have to add the figures in column C for the rows 5 to 9 plus, from row 4, the period from 16 MAR to 20 MAR, and you arrive at a total of 95 days within 6 months.

Next, please.

--

Maestro

No, my friend, I am correct. I stated quite clearly that I've used an EXACT 180-day period from 20 March until 15 September for my calculations which gives a total stay of 90 days up until that day.

If I use your 6-month period from 16 March to 20 September my calculations will obviously be different and I will end up with a different stamp date.

I think you are wrong in assuming a 6-month period will be used, but either way the calculations are not much different and will just yield slightly different numbers...and as long as we can agree on what constitutes the 6-month period, it will be easier than trying to work out 180 days.

There's an easy way to do these calculations. I'll post it shortly.

Edited February 7, 2007 by tropo

[tropo]

I think that you make it more difficult than it really is.

When the person in your example enters on August 25, 2007 he will be allowed 11 days only (up to 90 days during the period 13 Mar-12 Sep) not 30, not 19,

That's incorrect. If we use YOUR 6-month period for our calculations (26 February to 25 August) it clear that the hypothetical tourist has already been in Thailand 94 days over that period. Entry on August 25 is obviously a violation of visa rules and he should not be allowed to enter.

Your period of 13 March - 12 September yields 98 days in Thailand.

Please also note that my calculations were done for an EXACT 180-day period and not a 6-month period.

[Maestro]

I think you are wrong in assuming a 6-month period will be used

Don’t think, read this. It’s paragraph 3 you want.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

and we're expecting that the lone Immigration official at the Chong Mok, Ubon Ratchathani border crossing shack stands a snowball's chance in he11 with sorting this out?

I see the chance about equal to that of finding snow in Chong Mok.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

When the person in your example enters on August 25, 2007 he will be allowed 11 days only (up to 90 days during the period 13 Mar-12 Sep) not 30, not 19,

You are the immigration officer; I am the tourist. I enter on 25 AUG and you give me 11 days, i.e. you admit me until 04 SEP.

This means we have to look at the 6-month period from 05 MAR until 04 SEP. We add up the numbers in column C for rows 5 to 9 plus, from row 4, the days from 05 MAR to 20 MAR and we arrive at a total of 98 days within the 6-month period up to 04 SEP.

Next, please. I have given you the toy; play with it to your heart’s content.

--

Maestro

[tropo]

I think you are wrong in assuming a 6-month period will be used

Don’t think, read this. It’s paragraph 3 you want.

--

Maestro

Thanks for posting the official translation. I've seen it before, and I still don't believe they will use a literal 6-month period for actual calculations. I believe they've used 6-months in the sentence in paragraph 3 purely for ease of explanation.

In order to come up with an exact date for your exercise, please indicate what is the 6-month period to 28 August?

You would use 28 February - 27 August, but which 6-month period leads to 28 August in a non-leapyear?...and also to 29, 30 and 31 August?

Also try 6-months to October 31, December 31 and May 31. It's impossible as you would have to use the same starting dates 2 or more times.

[ciooni]

Your changing charts apart (which - I admit - I can not keep up with)

This is what Immigration does (presumably):

- checks the 6 months frames (months not days as the rule explicitly states, and for easier calculation); starting day is the first entry AFTER 1 October 2006

- checks the lenght of previous stays/remaining days (notes like the one the OP posted will be common practice and make everything easier);

- if, say, 12 days are remaining in the semester, Immigration will give 12 days maximum;

- or can give up to 30 days if a new semester begins in the meanwhile.

That's it.

If they can not count no system can be reliable.

First and most important thing to remember: it's always up to the immigration officers.

They won't care much about the exact calculation for a few days. They will go for the quickest and simplest way.

And they can never be wrong!

[ciooni]

Actually there's another realistic option that would make things even easier (for them. And this is what european consular and immigration officers normally do, being the rules very similar)

When 90 days are reached at the end of a semester, like in my previous example, the officer will say: "I'm granting you 12 days only (up to 90 days altoghether), then you have to leave for 3 months before coming back", i.e. he will not grant a stay spreading over two consecutive semesters.

[tropo]

Your changing charts apart (which - I admit - I can not keep up with)

This is what Immigration does (presumably):

- checks the 6 months frames (months not days as the rule explicitly states, and for easier calculation); starting day is the first entry AFTER 1 October 2006

- checks the lenght of previous stays/remaining days (notes like the one the OP posted will be common practice and make everything easier);

- if, say, 12 days are remaining in the semester, Immigration will give 12 days maximum;

- or can give up to 30 days if a new semester begins in the meanwhile.

That's it.

If they can not count no system can be reliable.

First and most important thing to remember: it's always up to the immigration officers.

They won't care much about the exact calculation for a few days. They will go for the quickest and simplest way.

And they can never be wrong!

When 90 days are reached at the end of a semester, like in my previous example, the officer will say: "I'm granting you 12 days only (up to 90 days altoghether), then you have to leave for 3 months before coming back", i.e. he will not grant a stay spreading over two consecutive semesters

I really hope the Immigration Officers are not as confused as you seem to be.

[Maestro]

It's impossible as you would have to use the same starting dates 2 or more times.

Thank you for pointing that out, tropo. Useful as the EOMONTH function may be in Excel, it cannot be used to calculate 6 months backward. It works only with calculating forward. If there is a way to use it for backward calculation, I have yet to find it. Back to manual calculation of the date 6 months earlier, then.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

This is what Immigration does (presumably):

... semester...semester...

Immigration as an agency seems to be doing nothing at all. This leaves each immigration officer to do his own thing and I would certainly not exclude the possibility you suggest, i.e. that some officers will use fixed 6-month periods instead of floating periods. What’s more, at least the way the English translation is written, the Police Order it does not seem to exclude this possibility.

This is where I sign off on this topic, lean back and wait for more reports by members from the field about what is happening. The fun has just started.

--

Maestro

[ciooni]

I know for real what immigration (consular) people do in practice in Europe, when they face the same problems Thai have now to face.

And I can assure you that they make the things simple for them, not difficult as many of you want to do.

There's no confusion.

We only have to accept the fact that we can not expect an immigration officer does what we like or what we think is correct. He has the last word.

Six months periods don't have to be calculated backwards.

What you need to do is look at your first entry in Thailand after 1st October 2006. Suppose it is May 31, 2007.

So these are the six months periods to consider:

31 May 07 - 30 Dec 07

31 Dec 07 - 30 May 08

31 May 08 - 30 Dec 08

etc...

I don't think they will be getting crazy counting and re-counting days, to grant you the expected amount. They will adopt the simplest and quickest solution.

Hopefully we will see more uniform practices in the future.

The note in the passport of the OP is an indication of what they're going to do.

[tropo]

Six months periods don't have to be calculated backwards.

What you need to do is look at your first entry in Thailand after 1st October 2006. Suppose it is May 31, 2007.

So these are the six months periods to consider:

31 May 07 - 30 Dec 07

31 Dec 07 - 30 May 08

31 May 08 - 30 Dec 08

etc...

Of course they have to be calculated backwards in order to determine the total days a tourist has been in Thailand PRIOR to their entry.

You still haven't given me the periods I was asking for. i.e. The 6 month period leading to Oct 31, Dec 31, May 31, August 31,30,29. It's not possible.

A month is not a valid unit for calculation purposes, and for this reason they will use 180 days, and not 6 months.

Maestro may have a point in that they will just use the first 30 days from a 6-month period and give the balance from 90 for each new entry. An easy calculation that will never be exact.

It may get to the point where tourist visas will become a necessity for frequent visitors as the amount of days they could expect without visa will amount to a crap shoot.

Edited February 8, 2007 by tropo

[ciooni]

No, tropo, backward calculation is not in conformity with the regulations.

The count starts at the first entry as I said before and as the rule states:

Royal Thai Police Order No. 608/2549

"3. Passport holder...shall be permitted for multiple entry into Thailand, by permission of which must not exceed thirty days per entry wit a total period of stay not exceeding ninety days within six months from the date of the first entry into the Kingdom..."

(official transalation: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/2notice/rtp608EN.pdf)

It says "within six months from the date of the first entry" and not "within six months from the date of the last entry (backwards)"

They must not consider the semester prior to each entry, they must consider the semester(s) AFTER the FIRST entry.

This is what the rule states. But anyway we can never be sure how an immigration officer interpretes it case by case. And they care little about being exact in your favour.

In Europe, as I mentioned before, there are (almost) identical rules for tourists, and visa sections of consulates abroad and immigration police in Europe count the periods the way I said. But even here you can find some officer who has his own ideas...

Convention Implementing the Schengen Agreement

Article 20: "Aliens not subject to a visa requirement may move freely within the territories of the Contracting Parties for a maximum period of three months during the six months following the date of first entry..."

[tijnebijn]

...and the winner is...ciooni. His is the correct calculation.

Waiolas, treasure that stamp. Keep that passport even after it expires. That stamp will become an important memento of Thailand’s history of immigration procedures.

--

Maestro

What a masterful calculation again maestro,you are right again,and for once the imm as well.....!!!!!

[ciooni]

The only calculation that has explained the number (44) written in the passport of the OP is the one I wrote at the beginning of the thread:

1. First entry (on or after 1 Oct 2006):

14.10.2006 --> 29.10.06 = 16 days

(six months period = 14 Oct 2006 - 13 Apr 2006)

2. Second entry

28.01.2007 --> 26.02.2007 = 30 days (not yet used!)

Total stay in the semester (from the date of first entry) = 46 days

90 - 46 = "44" (like in passport)

Maestro calculation is different from mine and it is not correct. It considers an entry before 1 October 2006, which is not right, and day count is wrong:

- period 13.09.06-->29.10.06 is 47 days altoghether and not 46, since day of entry and day of exit must also be counted. Remaining days would be then 43 and not 44 like in the "note"

This demonstrates also that the immigration officer didn't count six months backwards from the day of last entry, but he started counting from the the day of first entry (14 Oct 2006) onward.

[tropo]

No, tropo, backward calculation is not in conformity with the regulations.

The count starts at the first entry as I said before and as the rule states:

Royal Thai Police Order No. 608/2549

"3. Passport holder...shall be permitted for multiple entry into Thailand, by permission of which must not exceed thirty days per entry wit a total period of stay not exceeding ninety days within six months from the date of the first entry into the Kingdom..."

(official transalation: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/2notice/rtp608EN.pdf)

It says "within six months from the date of the first entry" and not "within six months from the date of the last entry (backwards)"

They must not consider the semester prior to each entry, they must consider the semester(s) AFTER the FIRST entry.

This is what the rule states. But anyway we can never be sure how an immigration officer interpretes it case by case. And they care little about being exact in your favour.

In Europe, as I mentioned before, there are (almost) identical rules for tourists, and visa sections of consulates abroad and immigration police in Europe count the periods the way I said. But even here you can find some officer who has his own ideas...

Convention Implementing the Schengen Agreement

Article 20: "Aliens not subject to a visa requirement may move freely within the territories of the Contracting Parties for a maximum period of three months during the six months following the date of first entry..."

No Ciooni, you are confused.

Obviously to find out how long the person has been in Thailand up to an entry date, the immigration officer is counting backwards. It really amazes me you can't understand this. The "point of first entry" can only be calculated by counting back from the date of entry.

The whole concept of "date of first entry" is totally meaningless anyway when a person has been visiting Thailand regularly for years, and it's probably a mistranslation from the original Thai.

[ciooni]

Read again tropo.

You can not force the interpretation your own way.

The note in the passport (44 days) demonstrates that they don't count backwards. Did you notice? Read my previous post.

I know the way they count here in Europe (same time limits). They don't count backwards. And as far as we can understand from the original post they don't count backwards in Thailand either.

Your way of counting is not what the regulations mean and not what an immigration officer want to get lost in.

[tropo]

Read again tropo.

You can not force the interpretation your own way.

The note in the passport (44 days) demonstrates that they don't count backwards. Did you notice? Read my previous post.

I know the way they count here in Europe (same time limits). They don't count backwards. And as far as we can understand from the original post they don't count backwards in Thailand either.

Your way of counting is not what the regulations mean and not what an immigration officer want to get lost in.

I'm not forcing anything, merely using basic logic.

The note in the passport indicates nothing of the sort. It's merely an attempt to make subsequent calculations more simple. All they are doing is noting how many days are left in this, the very first 6-month period.

You're getting confused becuase this is the FIRST 180 day period since the new rules came into force. There is only one "semester" (as you call it) to consider...very simple.

If you carry your assumption of no backward counting further it's theoretically possible to log 180 days straight. In fact if they don't count backwards it would theoretically be possible to stay forever.

This is clearly absurd. There will be no semesters, only rolling 6-month (180 day) periods. The rules don't state that you are allowed 90 days from October to April, and another 90 days from April to October. They clearly state 90 days are allowed in a 6 month period, but not WHICH 6 month period. Right now there is only ONE possible 6 month period which will change in April. By April 2008, 365 x 6-month periods will have elapsed.

In April the fun will really begin. In the meantime I would suggest you practice counting backwards.

Edited February 8, 2007 by tropo

[ciooni]

According to my calculation, you get to 44, like the immigration officer did.

If you calculate the same way maestro did (counting 180 days backwards from the last entry) you won't get to that number, and he didn't. Well, he did, but with a mistake (not counting one day)!

Stick to the letter of the Police Order. If they say "six months from the date of first entry", reading this as "six months from the date of last entry backwards" is obviously a strained interpretation.

The real point is what "first entry" means.

Before going on, may I ask you one thing tropo?

Do you agree with me that Thailand and Europe have almost same regulations about time restrictions for stay of tourists, visa-exempt, in their territory?

Look at this:

Royal Thai Police Order No. 608/2549

"3. Passport holder...shall be permitted for multiple entry into Thailand, by permission of which must not exceed thirty days per entry wit a

total period of stay not exceeding ninety days within six months from the date of the first entry into the Kingdom

..."

And this:

Convention Implementing the Schengen Agreement

Article 20: "Aliens not subject to a visa requirement may move freely within the territories of the Contracting Parties

for a maximum period of three months during the six months following the date of first entry

..."

If I know we can agree on this, I'll let you know something that could be veeeery interesting, not only for you, but for anybody here.

If you carry your assumption of no backward counting further it's theoretically possible to log 180 days straight....

This is correct and possible in theory, but in practice I think they will not permit it. Anyway this doesn't mean necessarily they're going to count backward. They won't. Too complicated and not conforming to the rule.

Consider also the possibility that having different opinions from yours and supporting them with clear arguments doesn't necessarily mean confusion...

Edited February 8, 2007 by ciooni

[tropo]

Ok, let's talk Schengen.

I've got news for you, they count backwards too.

You must understand that when we talk Schengen, we are talking about a visa with a strictly marked period of validity, just the same as Thailand's tourist visa. It's different from the visa exempt 30 day entries allowed in Thailand. That being said, it would seem that Schengen countries are strict about the 90 day limit in any previous 6 months and use a calculator to work out the allowable time on any new visa they issue...counting backwards!

You may find this explanation interesting from UDI (Norwegian Directorate of Immigration):

Visitor’s visa (type C)

A visa for Norway and the Schengen area may be granted for up to 90 days. However, you may not stay in the Schengen area for more than 90 days in the course of the past six months. This means that any stay in the Schengen area in the past six months must be taken into consideration when calculating the duration of a visa. The duration of the visa is stated on the visa sticker. The visa sticker also states the first permitted entry date and last permitted exit date.

Here are some screen shots of the calculations I made on their visa calculator (link given below) using Maestro's dates. As you can see, an entry (in Schengen's case the visa) is not allowed on 25 August, just as I had calculated.

Just to test it out, I've entered some subsequent test dates to see how many days are given.

It would appear they are using a 6-month period instead of 180 days. Some smart guys figured it out and it works like a charm.

VISA CALCULATOR

PS. Maestro, you may want to analyse this calculator and post it seperately if you think it has merit.

Edited February 9, 2007 by tropo

[Maestro]

Maestro, you may want to analyse this calculator

A PM of tropo’s called me back from my self-imposed exile from this topic.

Thanks, tropo, for the link to the Schengen calculator and to ciooni, for first quoting the rule from the Schengen agreement.

I am really tired of these calculations, which I have come to realise lead nowhere. They are only hypothetical as reality has shown that Immigration has no clue how to count the days. Anyway, let’s have a quick look at the following example of tropo’s:

The Schengen calculator does not meet my criteria in that it does not consider the 6-month period until the future date of the new “valid until...” date, which in this example of tropo’s would be 25 SEP (12.09.07 plus 14 days = 25.09.07). Hence, we would have to look at the 6-month period from 26 MAR until 25 SEP, and this gives only 85 days, i.e the total of rows 4 to 8 in column C in the spreadsheet below:

All right, so looking forward is perhaps expecting too much. The Schengen calculator is looking backward, as I see it, and in this case pretends to consider the 6-month period prior to the new entry date, i.e. until 11 SEP. This would mean the period from 12 MAR until 11 SEP. However, instead of counting the 9 days from 12 MAR to 30 MAR, it counts only 5 days. Strange...Wait a moment; I think I’ve got it. They calculate backward from 12 SEP not 6 months, but 180 days, to 16 MAR:

Well, calculating 180 days backward is easy; even I can do that (see attached XLS file). It’s calculating 6 months backward that had me stumped.

--

Maestro

days_Schengen.xls

[ciooni]

Tropo, would you please read what I write one time?

If you are so well informed as you seem to be, you should know that Schengen Countries admit tourists of certain foreign countries *without visa* just as Thailand does.

Otherwise than in Thailand:

- the immigration officer at the border doesn't put an "admitted until...." stamp on the passport at the entry, but he only stamps the date of entry into the Schengen area. No officer calculates the allowed stay BEFORE the entry.

- the maximum allowed period is three months without need of border runs.

Once again:

Convention Implementing the Schengen Agreement (CISA)

Article 20

1.

Aliens not subject to a visa requirement

may move freely within the territories of the Contracting Parties for a maximum period of three months during the six months following the date of first entry..."

To know who needs a tourist visa and who doesn't, you may like to read Article 1 (2) and the Annex II of Regulation no. 539/2001.

Ok, I want to be kind. More convenient to look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_visa_lists

*********************************************************************

Anyway this is not the point. With a Visa or Visa exempt, the limits (and the counting) of stay for tourists are identical, i.e. three months during the six months following the date of first entry.

As I said before, the very point is the notion of "first entry".

Tropo has informed us that consulates of Norway abroad count backwards i.e. "six months" is meant as a rolling period depending on the last entry.

Nordic people are very rational and straight-minded and presumably they have not so many visa applications to process, so they can enjoy spending some time in precise and very logical calculations.

Only one observation: how can they count from the date of last entry at the moment they release a visa, if the date of "last entry" has still to come?

Thanks for the information and for the calculator anyway.

Norway has its own way of counting that is conforming with tropo's (and many others) backward calculation.

But now they must change their calculator...

**********************************************************************

The problem of counting the days and interpreting Article 20 (1) CISA has recently been brought to the attention of the highest European Court i.e. the Court of Justice of the EU, which, given the importance of the question (!), has pronounced, as a Grand Chamber (!), a ruling on the matter on 3 October 2006 (proceedings Nicolae Bot v Préfet du Val-de-Marne) stating the correct and binding interpretation.

Many national governments submitted their observations to the Court and gave their interpretation of Article 20 (1) CISA.

The Finnish government (nordic again...) backed up the same interpretation that Tropo and Norway are adopting (par. 36 of the judgment):

36 As for the Finnish Government, it submits that the term ‘first entry’ is to be interpreted as referring to the first entry into the Schengen Area which took place during the six-month period preceding a new entry into that area, with every stay which has already been made in the area during that period reducing the length of the permitted three-month stay accordingly.

But the Court refused this interpretation on the basis that (par. 40 and 41 of the judgment):

40 ....... By focusing on the variable dates of first entry depending on the date of last entry, those interpretations effectively overlook the fact that Article 20(1) of the CISA is framed around the very notion of ‘first entry’, in order to replace it with date of last entry, which is not to be found in that provision.

41 In those circumstances, as they have no basis in the wording of that provision, those interpretations, the relative complexity of which could, moreover, affect the uniform application of Article 20(1) of the CISA and therefore prejudice legal certainty for individuals, cannot be accepted.

.........

And finally (TA-DAAAA) the ruling:

Article 20(1) of the Convention..... is to be interpreted as meaning that the term ‘first entry’ in that provision refers, besides the very first entry into the territories of the Contracting States to that agreement, to the first entry into those territories taking place after the expiry of a period of six months from that very first entry and also to any other first entry taking place after the expiry of any new period of six months following an earlier date of first entry.

Therefore "FIRST ENTRY" in Europe means:

1. The very first entry

2. The first entry after six months from the very first entry

3. And so on....

Six months must be calculated FROM the "first entry" onward.

For those who has nothing else to do than reading boring, obscure judgments, this is the link:

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/gett...mp;seance=ARRET

About the Court of Justice of the EU:

http://www.curia.europa.eu/en/instit/prese...r/index_cje.htm

********************************************************************

I would conclude by quoting maestro:

They (all the above ways of calculating) are only hypothetical as reality has shown that Immigration has no clue how to count the days.

And I would add:

The last thing they would do is getting themselves into even deeper trouble by adopting the most complicated and time-consuming system of calculation. Especially when they always have the power to say "take or leave".

Edited February 9, 2007 by ciooni