Thai Labour Law: Royal Decree blows work permits wide open

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, overherebc said:

Digital nomads will, to be legal, need a WP. 

Requirements for a WP are not mentioned and remain the same.

Catch 22! It think it has been established there is no such work permit?

[Small Joke]

On 7/30/2018 at 11:52 AM, oilinki said:

That's actually one of the places I might move to. Along with other EU countries, Portugal and Croatia. 

I came from a Portugal expat situation 4 years ago.  Nice country,  but not my cup of tea. Many parts of it are severely depressed.  I was back last year.  Not much had changed. 

[LivinLOS]

6 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

They don't check if you've you done 90 day reporting when you annually renew your work permit. When they see you have a recent entry stamp in your passport (maximim 90 days old) thats all they check.

When you have a <90 day entry stamp you dont need to do a report. 

That still doesnt go anywhere in explaining your claim by leaving the country once per year with a work permit you dont need to do 90 day reports.. Of course you do. 
 

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, overherebc said:

Digital nomads will, to be legal, need a WP. 

Requirements for a WP are not mentioned and remain the same.

Except there is now a clear exclusion for non Thais to not need a work permit if working for an existing business. 

https://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-law-working-without-a-work-permit-now-possible-67692.php#T5HlcLRQ6du71xRi.97
 

Quote

A. The following non-Thais can carry out certain activities in Thailand without a work permit:

(1) a non-Thai who comes to Thailand on a short-term periodic basis to: hold or to attend a meeting, lecture, seminar, training, exhibition of art or culture, or sports competition; provide an opinion; inspect work of others; or, any other activities, as prescribed by the Council of Ministers.

(2) a non-Thai who enters into Thailand to: operate a business; make an investment; or who has knowledge, ability, or skills that are considered beneficial to the development of the country;

 

How this is interpreted on the ground is key. 

 

I think this aspect is a much bigger issue than being able to use your work permit to operate in multiple locations. 

 

[Small Joke]

This is not all that great once the excitement wears off.

The obvious loophole is that you need a long term permission to stay to get the work permit. 

Somehow,  I don't think Retirement or Ed visa extensions will wash. 

Does any one know what visa is needed to kickstart the Process?  Or where the application online can be Found? 

Seems half baked in it's current form. 

I'm 'retired' here, but retain an active  directorship online and overseas,  where does that leave others in the same boat? 

[LivinLOS]

8 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Catch 22! It think it has been established there is no such work permit?

 

But there is.. 

Use a BOI registered umbrella company, or incorporate yourself. 

What nomads mean when they say this is "theres no free or cheap enough work permit" which allows them to be legal but not pay the costs of legalisation. 

[LivinLOS]

2 minutes ago, Small Joke said:

I'm 'retired' here, but retain an active  directorship online and overseas,  where does that leave others in the same boat? 

I employ managers in the west and leave the country to perform some functions. I probably spend 60 - 80k eur to do that. 

 

If I really can "enter into Thailand to: operate a business" without needing a work permit, thats a big help. 

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, PoorSucker said:

It's a requirement for extension of stay here on Samui.

In order to get an extension of stay immigration may want confirmation that the employer has at least four Thai employees for every work permit, because that is the requirement for issuing the work permit, and you need the work permit to get the extension.

 

Basically they are checking that work permit regulations are met.

 

[elviajero]

48 minutes ago, seancbk said:

And yet you can get a work permit if your business doesn't have 4 employees.   

Only if the labour office issuing the work permit bend the rules. The rule/concession  that applicants married to a Thai only need two was rescinded years ago.

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, Mattd said:

I

There is nothing that stops a foreigner from being employed and working for more than one company in the Working of Aliens Act 2008.

Which makes it more obvious to me that this is intended for migrant workers and will only be applicable to them.

[overherebc]

55 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Catch 22! It think it has been established there is no such work permit?

Agreed.

Edit.

And if ever such a law/rule whatever came to be it would most likely require a fixed address of business, tax registration blah blah blah.

I work from my hotel room/rented house/ condo wouldn't fly.

Edited July 31, 2018 by overherebc

[seancbk]

54 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

4 hours ago, overherebc said:

Digital nomads will, to be legal, need a WP. 

Requirements for a WP are not mentioned and remain the same.

Catch 22! It think it has been established there is no such work permit?

 

It's been well established that unless you are working *for* a Thai company you don't need a WP.     Working for yourself online does not constitute working anymore than doing housework.

[seancbk]

10 minutes ago, elviajero said:

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

And yet you can get a work permit if your business doesn't have 4 employees.   

Only if the labour office issuing the work permit bend the rules. The rule/concession  that applicants married to a Thai only need two was rescinded years ago.

 

Under the right circumstances they are happy to work with you, as long as you can show you are trying to find 4 or more staff.   

Case in point, you setup a company, but you then find that it is much harder than you thought to find 4 qualified Thai staff.   Do you think that as the owner of the company who needs to work that they are going to refuse you a work permit because you've not been able to hire the 4 Thai staff?   

Or how about you lower your requirements so you can hire 4 Thai staff, you get your WP then 3 of your staff leave.  Do you think they are going to care that you now have only 1 Thai working for you?    

[overherebc]

3 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

It's been well established that unless you are working *for* a Thai company you don't need a WP.     Working for yourself online does not constitute working anymore than doing housework.

Grey area that is tolerated at this time.

They are expending energy and 'doing' something to make money in Thailand. That is enough to constitute work under the rules but only because a direct way of imposing tax on it hasn't been worked out yet.

Do you think they are not working/thinking about how to do it?

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Quote

A. The following non-Thais can carry out certain activities in Thailand without a work permit:

(1) a non-Thai who comes to Thailand on a short-term periodic basis to: hold or to attend a meeting, lecture, seminar, training, exhibition of art or culture, or sports competition; provide an opinion; inspect work of others; or, any other activities, as prescribed by the Council of Ministers.

(2) a non-Thai who enters into Thailand to: operate a business; make an investment; or who has knowledge, ability, or skills that are considered beneficial to the development of the country;

 

How this is interpreted on the ground is key. 

 

I think this aspect is a much bigger issue than being able to use your work permit to operate in multiple locations. 

 

 

Yes this is very interesting.   I'm going to have to get clarification on what (2) really means.   

 

[humbug]

i am no lawyer but it smells of loosening the valves around working for non-thai passport holders to allow more intergration for Asean and future Asean rules around working

 

 

[overherebc]

30 minutes ago, humbug said:

i am no lawyer but it smells of loosening the valves around working for non-thai passport holders to allow more intergration for Asean and future Asean rules around working

 

 

Asean is the key word.

[elviajero]

53 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

Under the right circumstances they are happy to work with you, as long as you can show you are trying to find 4 or more staff.   

Case in point, you setup a company, but you then find that it is much harder than you thought to find 4 qualified Thai staff.   Do you think that as the owner of the company who needs to work that they are going to refuse you a work permit because you've not been able to hire the 4 Thai staff?   

Or how about you lower your requirements so you can hire 4 Thai staff, you get your WP then 3 of your staff leave.  Do you think they are going to care that you now have only 1 Thai working for you?    

The answer to both your questions is that they could care and could refuse a WP.

 

I am well aware that they will under certain circumstances ‘bend the rules’, which is why I said that in my post.

 

However, the fact remains that the current regulations require four Thais for every WP, and that’s what people should expect to be enforced.

[mindfulness]

... why not just set up your Registered Business in HongKong ‘Offshore Limited Company’ as a non resident, the Tax Liabilites have fallen and let the VPN do its magic. 

[ttrd]

1 hour ago, overherebc said:

Asean is the key word.

It can be that the announced changes/modifications/legislative easing are dedicated for farangs belonging to a country under the Asean umbrella.

[tukkytuktuk]

After chatting to a few people today concerning the new work permit regulations the majority opinion was the following:-

If you are qualified in a certain field of work and you are issued a work permit then that work permit is yours for as long as you work in Thailand.

 

So if your a teacher working for a school and want to move to another school you just take your work permit you were issued with and ask the school to inform the labour department that you work there now, etc.. pay tax on your wages and your a free agent.

 

No need to re-apply, renew, the new regulation is making the work permit similar to a drivers license. You apply once, then just inform the authorities of who you work for, for how long, pay tax, etc.

 

This is what I heard from recruitment staff I know, but obviously these are still just rumours. Any how I just wanted to add this opinion to the many others.

[ttrd]

34 minutes ago, tukkytuktuk said:

After chatting to a few people today concerning the new work permit regulations the majority opinion was the following:-

If you are qualified in a certain field of work and you are issued a work permit then that work permit is yours for as long as you work in Thailand.

 

So if your a teacher working for a school and want to move to another school you just take your work permit you were issued with and ask the school to inform the labour department that you work there now, etc.. pay tax on your wages and your a free agent.

 

No need to re-apply, renew, the new regulation is making the work permit similar to a drivers license. You apply once, then just inform the authorities of who you work for, for how long, pay tax, etc.

 

This is what I heard from recruitment staff I know, but obviously these are still just rumours. Any how I just wanted to add this opinion to the many others.

If correct which also make sence then you will save much hassle and as well cost involved for applying for a new WP each time you change place of work involving a new employer - BUT it it the cost involved when changing employer based on todays rules I am concerned about that can be the hurdle for not changing the regulation alternatively the application cost for a new revolving WP will increase accordingly which anyway wil be a better option: 

 

Existing rule(s):

Once granted, the foreigner has to bring the work permit all the time especially at the work place and during working hours. Please note that the foreigner can only perform the job stated in the work permit and on the specific employer.

 

http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/work-permit-rules.php

Edited July 31, 2018 by ttrd

[kwilco]

I get the feeling that this is a loophole created by an un-anticipated  or reviewed dictum, with little prior research done.

As such one can expectyou "clarification" on thisthe shortly to close the loophole?

 

It ccertainly otherwise seems an unexpected and massive mindblowing leap in liberalising working in Thailand for foreigners.

 

PS - will current work permits be automatically included in the new liberal arrangements or will we have to re-apply?

Edited August 1, 2018 by kwilco

[seancbk]

15 hours ago, overherebc said:

15 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

It's been well established that unless you are working *for* a Thai company you don't need a WP.     Working for yourself online does not constitute working anymore than doing housework.

Grey area that is tolerated at this time.

They are expending energy and 'doing' something to make money in Thailand. That is enough to constitute work under the rules but only because a direct way of imposing tax on it hasn't been worked out yet.

Do you think they are not working/thinking about how to do it?

 

Of course they are and I look forward to it.   Not that it affects me directly.  But I'd like to see some form of long stay visa for young entrepreneurs who want to base themselves in Thailand while they develop and build their apps, blockchains or other tech related projects.  

[Time Traveller]

54 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I get the feeling that this is a loophole created by an un-anticipated  or reviewed dictum, with little prior research done.

As such one can expectyou "clarification" on thisthe shortly to close the loophole?

 

It ccertainly otherwise seems an unexpected and massive mindblowing leap in liberalising working in Thailand for foreigners.

 

PS - will current work permits be automatically included in the new liberal arrangements or will we have to re-apply?

Don't be reading too much into this. Like everything in Thailand, Big Headline Announcement and no substance.

 

Expect WP laws as they previously stood to remain the same for 99% of foreign workers. Still need employers to have 4 thai workers for every foreign.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Time Traveller

[seancbk]

12 hours ago, mindfulness said:

... why not just set up your Registered Business in HongKong ‘Offshore Limited Company’ as a non resident, the Tax Liabilites have fallen and let the VPN do its magic. 

In December 2017, Hong Kong bought in a new two tier tax rate for businesses and reduced the tax payable on the first HK$ 2 million of profits (8.5 million baht).  Makes me wish I hadn't closed down my Hong Kong companies, although it's easy enough to open new ones.

For corporations, the first HK$2 million of profits earned by a company will be taxed at half the current tax rate (i.e., 8.25%) whilst the remaining profits will continue to be taxed at the existing 16.5% tax rate.
For unincorporated businesses, the first HK$2 million of profits earned will be taxed at half of the current tax rate (i.e., 7.5%) whilst the remaining profits thereafter will be taxed at the existing 15% tax rate.


This assumes of course that your business can be run remotely (online businesses can of course).   But you will still get people on this forum claiming that because you are situated in Thailand and working online for your company in HK, you will still requires a Thai WP.

[Mattd]

15 hours ago, overherebc said:

Which makes it more obvious to me that this is intended for migrant workers and will only be applicable to them.

Quite possibly, although normally it is quite clearly stated in any act or decree when it applies to the migrant workers, i.e. it refers to neighbouring countries when describing a part of the act / decree that is applicable to migrants only.

 

[wgdanson]

On 7/30/2018 at 2:02 PM, LivinLOS said:

or skills that are considered beneficial to the development of the country;

Prime Minister?

[overherebc]

3 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Prime Minister?

I immediately thought of Jim Hacker when I read that. ??

[thedemon]

10 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

Don't be reading too much into this. Like everything in Thailand, Big Headline Announcement and no substance.

 

Expect WP laws as they previously stood to remain the same for 99% of foreign workers. Still need employers to have 4 thai workers for every foreign.

 

Yes pretty much. The driving force for Decree number 2 is the big reduction in financial penalties for employers. Decree number 1 had the penalties set too high which caused the corresponding bribe amounts to be out of proportion with the current economic conditions for most large scale employers. 

 

On the other hand although penalties have ostensibly also been reduced for alien employees without work permits, they can still be detained and imprisoned under Section 37 (1) of the Immigration Act so for them extortion will remain the name of the game.

 

All the other stuff about regulations concerning where, what and for whom appears to me to be largely window dressing since they will still be subject to bureaucratic interpretation the same way they always have been