Moving to Thailand & working remotely question!!

[ploigos]

Hello

I am in the process of moving to Thailand (Phuket is lovely!) but wanted to check whether it would be possible to continue to work as a consultant for UK or other non-Thailand companies while staying in Thailand? To be clear, i would be planning to work (and earn income) while i am in Thailand, working remotely, using emails/skype meetings/calls. the income will not be paid into Thailand and can be received in accounts that i hold outside of the country.

Specifically, i am looking to check how this will work for tax and any work permit purposes.

To clarify - i would ideally be doing the move via the retirement visa scheme (have already got all my docs and applications ready so i am all good in that respect).

any help would be much appreciated!

[mommysboy]

As described there would be no issues. 

 

There are no definite laws at present.

[BritTim]

This is question that is often asked. The usual term for what you are doing is "digital nomad". You will receive different opinions as to whether it is strictly allowed. My own interpretation of the law is that it is illegal. However, the Thai authorities have decided to tolerate it. There are many here doing what you intend to do. They are never prosecuted as long as they are neither employed by Thais nor have Thai clients.

 

The Working of Alien Act in Thailand is well out of date, not recognizing the reality that working remotely via the Internet is easy. Until there is a major revision of the law, I would not expect the current policy of tolerating digital nomads to change.

[elviajero]

Any work, even for a foreign employer, if carried out in Thailand needs permission, which in your case you won’t and can’t get. So technically if you work whilst ‘living’ in Thailand it’s unlawful,

 

There are many people now in your situation and the authorities are highly unlikely to come looking for you or prosecute if they found out what you’re doing. The best advice is to keep your ‘work’ to yourself, and do not declare it to the authorities, especially if applying for an extension of stay based on retirement.

 

If you live in the country for more than 180 days in a tax year you’ll be considered resident for tax; and any foreign income, that you bring into the country in the same tax year it’s earned, could be liable to tax. It would be your obligation to declare it.

[4MyEgo]

I have been living here for almost 3 years, and I suppose you say I live in a remote part of Thailand away from farangs and I renew my stay based on retirement annually, that said, I am retired and day trade with my life savings on the stock market back in my country and do some consultancy work back in the old country as the work comes in, no one has raised an eyebrow as I have the money paid into my bank account back in the old country.

 

The only thing is that I have to pay 32.5c in every dollar that I earn back in the old country as I am considered a foreign resident, and the threshold of $18,200 is removed, so it's literally a straight 1/3 of what I make back in the old country, that said the money I make from day trading is not taxable, so it works for me, however as the work take me about 10-15 minutes per job and pays around 10,000-12,500 baht per job, I suppose giving them 3,250-4,000 per job still leaves me money for beer.

 

A lot of blokes here would be saying would love to be making that kind of money for that little effort, but hey, I am retired, and my intention coming here was to retire and do what I like, eating grass like a cow, as opposed to having my brain fried, so if the work comes in, say 4 jobs a month I am ok with it, and if it's zero jobs, I am fine with it, yes I am lazy in my retirement.

 

You will be fine, just keep a low profile but check what the implications back in your home country are regarding your residency status and tax, 6, 2, 1 half dozen the other I would say, also see what effect property tax would have, because I will tell you now, if your coming from the "Lucky Country" Australia, you will be swimming up Sheeeeet Creek mate.

 

Like I said, beer money ??

 

 

[JRinPDX]

I'd be circumspect.  Not just 'not declaring it to the authorities'  but in general.  You never know when someone may lose face and/or want you out of the way.   That said, best of luck!

[Loaded]

20 hours ago, mommysboy said:

As described there would be no issues. 

 

There are no definite laws at present.

Not true.

 

The statement is also breaking TV rules by encouraging illegal activity.

 

" 2) You will not use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. "

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/terms/

 

There are definite laws that apply to you the same way they apply to all foreigners living here. You need a non-immigrant (usually B but O based on marriage to a Thai is OK) plus a work permit to do any sort of work. You'll need to declare regular income earned by your labors in Thailand to the Thai Revenue department.

 

It's true there are no laws that allow remote working in Thailand without the appropriate visa and work permit. You won't be able to be legal unless you work through a Thai company/school. Saying that, it's unlikely you'll be caught.

[marqus12]

"I am in the process of moving to Thailand (Phuket is lovely!)"

 

You probably have not been searched yet around your balls in the middle of the road

by the police on one of many road blocks on phuket ... Besides, phuket got stuck

in traffic jams... You choose a different country .

[scorecard]

21 hours ago, mommysboy said:

As described there would be no issues. 

 

There are no definite laws at present.

 

Actually it's not that simple, just one point (and there are more), foreigners on a retirement visa cannot work in Thailand. But some folks believe that working is different and all OK. Again, not that simple.

 

Suggest you scan this thread back 1 year or more and you'll  get a lot of information. Some comments will be solid fact, some comments will be totally wrong, some comments will be driven by what the poster would like to have / like to see.

 

 

[dpspike]

A retirement visa forbids one from working in Thailand. People might be doing this, but it is illegal. As stated above, working in Thailand requires a work permit, upon which a visa is dependent (no work permit, then no visa). In the vast majority of cases, the work permit application must be filed by a Thai-owned company. The laws governing who requires a work permit have changed recently, and will change further in the near future as the Thai govt is currently revamping these laws. See here:

https://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-law-royal-decree-blows-work-permits-wide-open-68051.php#IWvyA3Jt8bIQV6xF.97

What do these changes mean for you? I can't say. Depends on your situation and connections as to how you might create an opportunity/take advantage of these changes. For an example:

https://www.sunbeltasia.com/amity-treaty-americans-can-qualify-for-no-work-permit?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI88bn_LrX3AIVSRFoCh0FPwdUEAEYBCAAEgJJVvD_BwE

This information describes relevant changes for some Americans with companies. Obviously, you're not American, but this an example of how these changes are opening new opportunities for some foreigners. Whether you can create a situation that benefits your plans to stay in Thailand is "up to you", but I would suggest learning more about these laws by speaking with a Thai lawyer who specializes in this type of law practice. There many such law offices around Thailand, many of which offer free initial consultations.

 

There have been a number of recent arrests of foreigners working in Thailand without a work permit. These stories have been covered here on Thaivisa.com and include locations throughout the country. The types of jobs have included, among others, online teaching to students in China and call center workers which I presume were speaking by phone with people outside Thailand (because the "illegal" workers were not Thai). So working remotely does not exempt one from the work permit requirement. I suggest you read about these arrests by searching the forum threads. Use the "search for the phrase 'work permit'" function to narrow your results.

 

As a closing note, I will further suggest that you view the information in these stories with a healthy degree of skepticism, as I believe the Thai police use claims of criminal activity to enhance their public image. The details of the crime and punishment imposed (if any) are often omitted from the information provided to the news media. For example, the call center workers were said to have been running a phone scam, but no information about the alleged phone scam is provided. However, for discussion purposes, the bottom line is that these people were working without work permits, and the purpose of the police raid was to arrest them for labor law violation, not for a phone scam.

 

Know the facts. Don't assume. And keep your final decision to yourself. I see Thais breaking the law everyday, but they seem to have a different view of things when a foreigner breaks the same law. Just the appearance of impropriety can cause problems in a country where the laws are so convoluted and law enforcement so corrupt. That having been said, I have lived in Thailand since 2011, and never had a problem with police or immigration. But I never break the law either.

Edited August 9, 2018 by dpspike

[khunPer]

There are many different opinions about "digital nomads" and their need of a Work Permit. The last public known case in the news, where a group of Chinese working with stock investment for Chinese foreigners living outside Thailand, seem to be in favor of that digital nomads can work legally...
»

Sanook reported that the hands of the Thai authorities in Ubon Ratchathani were tied in the arrest of 166 Chinese nationals doing online stock trading in a "mansion" in the north eastern Thai city.

 

Police had raided the premises of the Zara Double Tree on Wednesday amid much fanfare of illegal activity.

 

But it has emerged that no arrests were made - only witness statements were taken and everyone was let go.

 

The tourists were in Thailand legally and despite it being known that each was paid for their online work there was nothing the Thais could do to arrest them or have them deported.

 

They will leave when their visas expire...«
Source:

A little older interview with officials in Chaing Mai Work Permit Office from March 2018 seem to conclude that there's no simple answer, and each case shall be valued separately; the conclusion was...

Quote

The Work Permit office also stresses that " there is no mathematical formula to determine what constitutes work, each case has to be evaluated individually. All circumstances will be taken into account, including the time that the foreigner resides in the Kingdom, the true purpose of the foreigner coming to Thailand, the work location and work situation of the foreigner and so on."

–and...

Quote

Most cases of Digital Nomads who stay in Thailand for a long time (say several months instead of several weeks) with the purpose of "work" can officiallly be viewed as doing work by authorities. This means, they actually need a work permit and are acting illegally if they work without a work permit.

 

The reason why the authorities have so far allowed it, is because there was no main concern, Thai jobs or Thai security were not threatened, there were no problems or nobody reported it. This position of allowance may change in the future, if there are problems or if Thai law is adjusted.

 

While most Digital Nomads staying long-term to work in Thailand actually need a work permit, but are allowed to 'do their thing' because they are of no main concern, some Digital Nomads are clearly crossing the line and may be a concern to the authorities and get checked, especially those competing with local Thai workers, threathening Thai security in some way, retrieving resources from Thailand or those working in a company-like structure.

 

In another interview with an official it was said, that digital nomads normally are self employed and not working with Thai clients, and therefore can work in Thailand (I didn't store a link, so I cannot instantly include source, believe it was som mr. Big from Phuket). Others have mentioned that Working remotely/working online for a non-Thai company or company not in Thailand doesn't come under the Alien Employment Act.

 

However, a number of foreigners seem to work as digital nomads, just keeping low profile. Their major concern is visa-status, where the Elite Card Visa might be the solution for some, and officially living of savings; i.e. not transferring funds into Thailand, the same year, as earned. Generally advice seem to be: Keep low profile about any online work, and just live from savings...?

[5633572526]

As long as your pay is not directly deposited to a Thai bank you are ok.

[somtumwrong]

1. Keep a low profile (don't brag if you earn a lot and life is easy)

2. Keep money flowing from your offshore account to your Thai account (not directly to your Thai account)

3. Have a good cover story such as .. well there are many. But essentially the key is to prevent anyone from 'exposing' you to the authorities like ex gf's etc.

4. Don't trust the law. The law can be bent so you never know if you are on the safe side.

 

or.. just get a work permit I guess.

[elviajero]

27 minutes ago, somtumwrong said:

2. Keep money flowing from your offshore account to your Thai account (not directly to your Thai account)

How would that help?

 

28 minutes ago, somtumwrong said:

or.. just get a work permit I guess.

That would not be possible unless he became employed by a business registered and operating in Thailand.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, 5633572526 said:

As long as your pay is not directly deposited to a Thai bank you are ok.

How so?

[somtumwrong]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

How so?

 If they do a simple bank transaction query 'X-Outlaw Foreigner Bank Move' or whatever funny they name it, they will bypass anything you have moved from your private offshore account to your Thai account. If the money comes from a customer to your Thai account, the whole thing changes as the 1st recipient country of the payment is now in Thailand. Taxable. Work permits needed.

 

I guess they don't do it atm, but it's rather simple to do, and most western countries already do this by routine.

[jackdd]

Currently the authorities in Thailand have no problem with people working online, they don't consider it as work which would require a work permit:

A while ago i also asked the department of employment directly, they confirmed this.

So at the moment people who work online can continue doing this, but of course there is a possibility that this changes in the future.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

Currently the authorities in Thailand have no problem with people working online, they don't consider it as work which would require a work permit:

That is misleading at best. The authorities currently don't have a problem with 'tourists' keeping up with their foreign based work/business whilst holidaying in Thailand. Expats that have permission to 'live' in the country that prohibits work opens up a whole new can of worms.

 

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

So at the moment people who work online can continue doing this, but of course there is a possibility that this changes in the future.

Whilst the authorities are not actively looking to prosecute or kick out expats (the OP) working remotely that possibility exists without any changes, so the best advice is not to rely on reports of unrelated incidents, and to not disclose something you are not asked to disclose.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

7 hours ago, 5633572526 said:

As long as your pay is not directly deposited to a Thai bank you are ok.

How so?

3 hours ago, somtumwrong said:

 If they do a simple bank transaction query 'X-Outlaw Foreigner Bank Move' or whatever funny they name it, they will bypass anything you have moved from your private offshore account to your Thai account. If the money comes from a customer to your Thai account, the whole thing changes as the 1st recipient country of the payment is now in Thailand. Taxable. Work permits needed.

You seem to be describing tax evasion. And work carried out in Thailand requires permission regardless of where the business/employer is located or income paid.

 

Here are the simple facts. If you live in Thailand for more than 180 days of a tax year you become 'Tax Resident' and have a potential tax liability on any worldwide income that is earned and brought to Thailand in the same tax year. It doesn't matter how many "offshore accounts" or countries see the money first. If you don't declare such income you are potentially guilty of tax evasion.

 

The only legal way to avoid potential tax on income brought in to Thailand is to only transfer savings from earnings in a previous tax year.

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

That is misleading at best. The authorities currently don't have a problem with 'tourists' keeping up with their foreign based work/business whilst holidaying in Thailand. Expats that have permission to 'live' in the country that prohibits work opens up a whole new can of worms. 

The Department of Employment says working online doesn't require a work permit because they don't classify it as work (that's what they told me when i asked them, you can of course call them by yourself and report back what they tell you). This classification does have nothing to with the type of visa somebody is using.

[khunPer]

35 minutes ago, jackdd said:

The Department of Employment says working online doesn't require a work permit because they don't classify it as work (that's what they told me when i asked them, you can of course call them by yourself and report back what they tell you). This classification does have nothing to with the type of visa somebody is using.

Which makes sense, as a Work Permit is issued for working for a Thai employer – "Please note that the foreigner can only perform the job stated in the work permit and on the specific employer." – not a foreign company, or being self-employed in a foreign country.

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, jackdd said:

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

That is misleading at best. The authorities currently don't have a problem with 'tourists' keeping up with their foreign based work/business whilst holidaying in Thailand. Expats that have permission to 'live' in the country that prohibits work opens up a whole new can of worms. 

The Department of Employment says working online doesn't require a work permit because they don't classify it as work (that's what they told me when i asked them, you can of course call them by yourself and report back what they tell you). This classification does have nothing to with the type of visa somebody is using.

The Department of Employment have never said that online work doesn't require a work permit.

 

I have had many conversations with the bosses at two labour offices that I use, and they all say the same thing. Any work requires permission, but that foreigners doing 'remote work' can do so off the radar. They are not interested in going after this group of foreigners or prosecuting, but that doesn't mean they won't or can't.

 

All of the public discussions have focused on 'tourists', specifically Digital Nomads, working online. And even then there has been at least one report where the person interviewed said he would consider it work after a few months. In other words when the 'tourist' was no longer considered a tourist. Pretty much anyone with a tourist entry has a free pass for now, although long term tourists are pushing their luck. Expats are entirely different as they are living in the country, and for now should stay well off the radar.

 

Clearly neither Immigration or the Department of Labour are bothered by foreign remote workers, but facts are facts, and as it stands you can be prosecuted if you carry out any occupation or employment without permission.

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

Which makes sense, as a Work Permit is issued for working for a Thai employer – "Please note that the foreigner can only perform the job stated in the work permit and on the specific employer." – not a foreign company, or being self-employed in a foreign country.

Just because there is no way to get permission to do remote work, doesn't mean it's allowed by default. They could pass regulation tomorrow to exempt remote work, but they aren't going to do that anytime soon as far as I can see. It would create a whole lot of other issues if they did. 

[gk10002000]

I am sure I will be doing a little engineering consulting on the side for firms and people back in the states.  One co -worker just finishing up his PhD wants me to collaborate on a book/training/ best practice sort of thing for failure modes and effects analysis  (FMEA) citing some sanitzed examples of two Air Vehicles I have worked on.  Many things out there on the topic of course, but few give some detailed examples

 

  The money will be deposited in my USA bank accounts.  Absolutely no connection or affiliation with anything to do with Thailand. 

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

I am sure I will be doing a little engineering consulting on the side for firms and people back in the states.  One co -worker just finishing up his PhD wants me to collaborate on a book/training/ best practice sort of thing for failure modes and effects analysis  (FMEA) citing some sanitzed examples of two Air Vehicles I have worked on.  Many things out there on the topic of course, but few give some detailed examples

 

  The money will be deposited in my USA bank accounts.  Absolutely no connection or affiliation with anything to do with Thailand. 

You will be physically in Thailand when you do the work so it absolutely has a connection with Thailand. 

[gk10002000]

Just now, elviajero said:

You will be physically in Thailand when you do the work so it absolutely has a connection with Thailand. 

To me, it is the same as somebody on sabbatical, traveling the world, pausing for a while to write a book, pen their memoirs, etc.  Should the Thais ever have an issue with it, then fine.  They are free to ask and we will go from there.

[elviajero]

14 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

To me, it is the same as somebody on sabbatical, traveling the world, pausing for a while to write a book, pen their memoirs, etc.  Should the Thais ever have an issue with it, then fine.  They are free to ask and we will go from there.

I'm sure they never will have an issue. I am simply pointing out that the location of your 'work' counts and you shouldn't think otherwise.

[gk10002000]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

I'm sure they never will have an issue. I am simply pointing out that the location of your 'work' counts and you shouldn't think otherwise.

I don't think the laws as written or any case precedence in the courts exists one way or the other as has been discussed in many forums

Edited August 12, 2018 by gk10002000
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[elviajero]

31 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

I don't think the laws as written or any case precedence in the courts exists one way or the other as has been discussed in many forums

The law is crystal clear. It was deliberately written as a catch all. It clearly states that having been given permission to enter (you're on Thai land) you cannot work without permission unless the work concerned is excluded, which 'remote work' isn't. Why haven't they simply excluded it I wonder? It's is easily within their power.

 

Fortunately for all concerned the authorities take a pragmatic view of the law, and aren't prosecuting. Even if they wanted to prosecute it would be a practical nightmare. In my experience people confuse enforcement of the law with the law, and base their opinion of the law around the enforcement. All I do is point out what they do, don't do, and can do. 

[gk10002000]

7 hours ago, elviajero said:

The law is crystal clear. It was deliberately written as a catch all. It clearly states that having been given permission to enter (you're on Thai land) you cannot work without permission unless the work concerned is excluded, which 'remote work' isn't. Why haven't they simply excluded it I wonder? It's is easily within their power.

 

Fortunately for all concerned the authorities take a pragmatic view of the law, and aren't prosecuting. Even if they wanted to prosecute it would be a practical nightmare. In my experience people confuse enforcement of the law with the law, and base their opinion of the law around the enforcement. All I do is point out what they do, don't do, and can do. 

Most laws are subject to interpretation both in wording and intended meaning.  The laws as written are not clear at all on this particular topic and it clearly seems to not have ever been the intent of the law.

Edited August 13, 2018 by gk10002000
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