UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[3NUMBAS]

every day its confirmed there will be no more votes on leaving but remainers are stone deaf to this fact

[dunroaming]

I agree with quite a bit of Dicks last post except the "hard Brexit" is becoming the only option.

 

There were lots of possible scenarios flagged up if we end up with a no deal Brexit.  The flights issue being one of them.  It would be catastrophic for both sides of the channel so very unlikely it would be allowed to happen.  But I reject the suggestion that it was just panic fear because it was/is a possibility although highly unlikely.

 

I am not as sure as some that we are heading towards a no deal result.  It would be dire for the UK and the EU alike and certainly would finish the Tory government.  Because none of the political parties can be trusted to do what is best for the country rather than their own interests I think more and more people will want some sort of voice in all this chaos.

[Stupooey]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

 

It comes as no suprise that you're deliberately (like oilinki....) missing the point of what we were discussing....

 

Do you think uk airports will be grounded in the event of 'no deal' brexit?

Do you think Turkey will join the EU in 2020? Do you think there will ever be a European Army? Fear tactics have been employed as much (if not more) by the Leave side, it's just Remainers don't do simplistic slogans and sound bites such as 'Project fear' (you have nothing to fear but fear itself) , 'Will of the people' (37%? Some will!), 'Remoaners' (from people who have been moaning for 40 years), 'Ever closer union' (taken out of context) etc.

[SheungWan]

15 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

every day its confirmed there will be no more votes on leaving but remainers are stone deaf to this fact

Any particular time of the day?

[melvinmelvin]

55 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

every day its confirmed there will be no more votes on leaving but remainers are stone deaf to this fact

 

don't think that the word fact is very suitable in the context of Brexit,

almost anything can happen between now and end  of March

 

deal

no deal

art 50 called off

prolonged neg period

2. ref

ref on result of talks, including don't leave option

 

legio, the possibilities are

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

In my honest opinion?  Neither.

 

Edit - I think this as the eu consists of many countries that need to trade with the uk as much as the uk needs to trade with those individual eu countries.

 

Both sides have too much to lose in the event of 'no deal', which is why I agree with other posters that a reasonable deal (for both sides) will be agreed at the last minute.

 

Of course this is just my opinion, but I gather you've backed away from the daily express claim you posted - stating that 'planes will be grounded in the event of 'no deal'?

Both sides have a lot to lose. One side has way more to lose than the other. Therefore there is imbalance of negotiation power. This has been the fact from the day one. 

 

Brexit was never going to be a negotiation between equal partners. 

 

Like @whatsupdoc already mentioned, grounding UK planes from accessing EU airspace is the default option in this case. The same applies the other way around. Which party hurts more in case of bad divorce?

 

If there are no deals at all, that is what we'll get. Do you still support walking away from the negotiations and wish UK to show it's arse to EU?

 

I personally think that EU and UK will make a deal about the matter, but do you still want that there is no deals made by these two entities? Perhaps UK could just walk away.. or fade away. 

 

 

 

 

[aright]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

I am more focussed on the Ireland mess in the event of a no-deal. But hey, keep paddling in whatever pool keeps you happy. (I forget, Hard Brexiteers don't do happy, even the ones who pretended they were fence sitters)

Brexiteers do very happy when they see reports like this

 

Dominic Raab has threatened Michel Barnier with the prospect that the EU will be forced to order the Irish government to reinstate the border in Northern Ireland in the event of a ‘no deal’ Brexit, the Telegraph can reveal.

Mr Raab’s challenge to Mr Barnier over the border reflects British thinking that in the event of a ‘no deal’ the EU will find itself having to face an invidious choice between forcing the Irish government to erect a border that would undermine the Good Friday Agreement, or imposing customs checks between Ireland and the EU.

UK sources report that Mr Barnier has been “grumpy” in the talks, refusing meetings and bristling at Mr Raab’s more combative approach compared to his predecessor David Davis, using his grasp of detail and background in international law to pick away at EU positions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/06/revealed-dominic-raab-threat-irish-border-left-michel-barnier/

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

54 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I agree with quite a bit of Dicks last post except the "hard Brexit" is becoming the only option.

 

There were lots of possible scenarios flagged up if we end up with a no deal Brexit.  The flights issue being one of them.  It would be catastrophic for both sides of the channel so very unlikely it would be allowed to happen.  But I reject the suggestion that it was just panic fear because it was/is a possibility although highly unlikely.

 

I am not as sure as some that we are heading towards a no deal result.  It would be dire for the UK and the EU alike and certainly would finish the Tory government.  Because none of the political parties can be trusted to do what is best for the country rather than their own interests I think more and more people will want some sort of voice in all this chaos.

 

There are several aspects to this no-flight issue.

It seems reasonably clear that in case of no deal the regulatory framework that keeps BM and BA and LHR operational re transport

to/from EU collapses as we approach 31 March.

Some questions:

Are UK air transport authorities and operators prepared to act accordingly? Ie discontinue transport to/from EU?

Are EU air transport authorities prepared to enforce the new reality from day 1?

Now, insurers. How will they handle transport on more than shaky regulatory ground?

Air transport workers, plane drivers and dry martini servers, will they be willing to work without a solid regulatory framework?

What about health insurance for workers in a not properly regulated environment?

 

Air transport is just one of several key areas.

 

Will trains originating in UK be allowed into EU at all?

 

Will UK citizens need a Schengen visa for entering France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands?

 

I can see some fairly thorny issues re ships transitting the Channel which I think France and Netherlands and Belgium would

like to see sorted fast as double shit. Has to do with safety and environmental protection.

 

transport is just one of many areas

 

 

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, aright said:

Brexiteers do very happy when they see reports like this

 

Dominic Raab has threatened Michel Barnier with the prospect that the EU will be forced to order the Irish government to reinstate the border in Northern Ireland in the event of a ‘no deal’ Brexit, the Telegraph can reveal.

Mr Raab’s challenge to Mr Barnier over the border reflects British thinking that in the event of a ‘no deal’ the EU will find itself having to face an invidious choice between forcing the Irish government to erect a border that would undermine the Good Friday Agreement, or imposing customs checks between Ireland and the EU.

UK sources report that Mr Barnier has been “grumpy” in the talks, refusing meetings and bristling at Mr Raab’s more combative approach compared to his predecessor David Davis, using his grasp of detail and background in international law to pick away at EU positions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/06/revealed-dominic-raab-threat-irish-border-left-michel-barnier/

Why not to simply encourage Northern Ireland to take a step towards independence so that it could become its own country, which could be part of the EU?

 

The problem of the EU border is solved by simply separating the country from UK. 

 

Perhaps, some day in the future, the fine people of Northern Ireland and Ireland can find more common ground than the separating force of religion and these countries could join together.

 

Perhaps. 

[Grouse]

19 hours ago, aright said:

Typical! You aren't familiar with the Canadian model but like the Swiss model yet want to debate the best course for the UK without knowledge of all the options. Are you having a laugh or a troll?

I'd prefer a Swedish model

[aright]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'd prefer a Swedish model

I always had you down as a Natasha Crown from Gothenburg man.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, SheungWan said:

I will be in Thailand end of March so I don't really care if the whole of the UK grinds to a halt. I will worry about the future availability of Italian Gruyere though when I am next in town post B-Day.

Italian Gruyere? Is that like Barnsley Emmental?

[aright]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Italian Gruyere? Is that like Barnsley Emmental?

No its the one that goes with that Italian wine which has a distinct smell of donkey.

[melvinmelvin]

35 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Why not to simply encourage Northern Ireland to take a step towards independence so that it could become its own country, which could be part of the EU?

 

The problem of the EU border is solved by simply separating the country from UK. 

 

Perhaps, some day in the future, the fine people of Northern Ireland and Ireland can find more common ground than the separating force of religion and these countries could join together.

 

Perhaps. 

 

now, som further thoughts re your entry

 

assuming that UK will leave EU next March:

 

NI going it alone

NI being folded into Ireland

are possibilities, at least in theory

 

Scotland would probably get wound up wanting to leave the UK and entering EU

 

if that should happen, what about the overseas territories?

there are some UK heaps of stones around the world, the remains of the empire

 

some in the Channel

the cliff

some in the Mexican Gulf, British Virgin etc. ...

Ascension

Falklands

Pitcairn

Diego Garcia

and probably some more

 

is it a given that these follow the queen? ie will be considered as English territory?

or??

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[ivor bigun]

I guess all the Hard Brexiteers are individually wrapped Kraft Cheese Slices type of guys.

How double dare you sir,its mature english chedder for me ,and Danish blue for the wife(the only Thai that i know that likes that and marmite)

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Stupooey]

8 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

now, som further thoughts re your entry

 

assuming that UK will leave EU next March:

 

NI going it alone

NI being folded into Ireland

are possibilities, at least in theory

 

Scotland would probably get wound up wanting to leave the UK and entering EU

 

if that should happen, what about the overseas territories?

there are some UK heaps of stones around the world, the remains of the empire

 

some in the Channel

the cliff

some in the Mexican Gulf, British Virgin etc. ...

Ascension

Falklands

Pitcairn

Diego Garcia

and probably some more

 

is it a given that these follow the queen? ie will be considered as English territory?

or??

 

Diego Garcia? Hardly British, doesn't he play for Real Madrid?

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'd prefer a Swedish model

I have found the Swedish models to be rather self centered ?

 

If you can speak the lingua, this works very, very well as Brexit song.  

 

 

[aright]

7 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

How double dare you sir,its mature english chedder for me ,and Danish blue for the wife(the only Thai that i know that likes that and marmite)

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I like Danish Blue myself especially "Debbie does Skagen" 

[ivor bigun]

I like Danish Blue myself especially "Debbie does Skagen" 

Oh i love "Debbie does Dallas".

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

now, som further thoughts re your entry

 

assuming that UK will leave EU next March:

 

NI going it alone

NI being folded into Ireland

are possibilities, at least in theory

 

Scotland would probably get wound up wanting to leave the UK and entering EU

 

if that should happen, what about the overseas territories?

there are some UK heaps of stones around the world, the remains of the empire

 

some in the Channel

the cliff

some in the Mexican Gulf, British Virgin etc. ...

Ascension

Falklands

Pitcairn

Diego Garcia

and probably some more

 

is it a given that these follow the queen? ie will be considered as English territory?

or??

 

The simplest solution would them becoming independent territories. After all, they should be allowed to do that. 

 

After independence, the people can choose to be part of specific unions. Whether their Union of choice is UK or EU is up to the people. 

 

I'm not sure what happens with Piccairn with it's rather dark history, but for the rest would be most probably happy to join the EU.

 

Even Argentain should not complain to have entity of EU next to it's doorstep as it enables further co-operation between Argentina and EU. 

 

 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, dunroaming said:

I agree with quite a bit of Dicks last post except the "hard Brexit" is becoming the only option.

 

There were lots of possible scenarios flagged up if we end up with a no deal Brexit.  The flights issue being one of them.  It would be catastrophic for both sides of the channel so very unlikely it would be allowed to happen.  But I reject the suggestion that it was just panic fear because it was/is a possibility although highly unlikely.

 

I am not as sure as some that we are heading towards a no deal result.  It would be dire for the UK and the EU alike and certainly would finish the Tory government.  Because none of the political parties can be trusted to do what is best for the country rather than their own interests I think more and more people will want some sort of voice in all this chaos.

 

From what I have read here and on the various papers and news web sites the EU seems to have rejected everything that the UK has put up for negotiation and they seem to not want to compromise at all.

 

The time scale is getting very short and in less than 7 months some sort of deal needs to be sorted out otherwise the UK will have a solid no deal. The UK PM is in the position where she either accepts that and we walk away or she rejects the no deal and accepts a very soft Brexit.

 

Either way her political career is over.

 

If she goes for the no deal and walks away the Remainers will kill the Tories at the next election. And If she takes the very soft Brexit the  Leavers will kill the Tories at the next election.

 

Who would win the next election I have no idea.

 

The Lib-Dems stand little or no chance.

 

In Scotland the SNP may well push for independence once again but they are not the only political party in Scotland.

 

The Greens and the other also rans stand no chance.

 

That leaves the Labour Party, led or not as the case may be, by Jeremy Corbyn. They are badly split and IMHO stand a chance of winning, but only if they can sort themselves out and decide who they are and who they represent.

 

Would they be the best option? I have no idea.

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The simplest solution would them becoming independent territories. After all, they should be allowed to do that. 

 

After independence, the people can choose to be part of specific unions. Whether their Union of choice is UK or EU is up to the people. 

 

I'm not sure what happens with Piccairn with it's rather dark history, but for the rest would be most probably happy to join the EU.

 

Even Argentain should not complain to have entity of EU next to it's doorstep as it enables further co-operation between Argentina and EU. 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

From what I have read here and on the various papers and news web sites the EU seems to have rejected everything that the UK has put up for negotiation and they seem to not want to compromise at all.

 

The time scale is getting very short and in less than 7 months some sort of deal needs to be sorted out otherwise the UK will have a solid no deal. The UK PM is in the position where she either accepts that and we walk away or she rejects the no deal and accepts a very soft Brexit.

 

Either way her political career is over.

 

If she goes for the no deal and walks away the Remainers will kill the Tories at the next election. And If she takes the very soft Brexit the  Leavers will kill the Tories at the next election.

 

Who would win the next election I have no idea.

 

The Lib-Dems stand little or no chance.

 

In Scotland the SNP may well push for independence once again but they are not the only political party in Scotland.

 

The Greens and the other also rans stand no chance.

 

That leaves the Labour Party, led or not as the case may be, by Jeremy Corbyn. They are badly split and IMHO stand a chance of winning, but only if they can sort themselves out and decide who they are and who they represent.

 

Would they be the best option? I have no idea.

 

If, Labour should split into a centre and a left branch - I see tory cabinets no end until the sun switches off

regardless of what TM  does

unless UK politicians start to understand that coalitions are good for them

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

don't think that the word fact is very suitable in the context of Brexit,

almost anything can happen between now and end  of March

 

deal

no deal

art 50 called off

prolonged neg period

2. ref

ref on result of talks, including don't leave option

 

legio, the possibilities are

 

Most likely is Parliamentary rejection of final deal/no deal, PM resignation, and collapse of the Government within the next couple of months or three.  That will obviously impact on Brexit.  I'd say there is some doubt as to whether Brexit will even happen, with or without a second referendum.

 

[melvinmelvin]

41 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The simplest solution would them becoming independent territories. After all, they should be allowed to do that. 

 

After independence, the people can choose to be part of specific unions. Whether their Union of choice is UK or EU is up to the people. 

 

I'm not sure what happens with Piccairn with it's rather dark history, but for the rest would be most probably happy to join the EU.

 

Even Argentain should not complain to have entity of EU next to it's doorstep as it enables further co-operation between Argentina and EU. 

 

 

 

oilinki, get a grip or have an iso olut or both

 

EU stands for European Union. they don't take up member states from the south Atlantic or the south Indian Ocean

 

My guess is that several of these territories do not even want to become independent states,

not least 'cause of financial aid from the motherland

 

It is also an open question as to if these territories would even be able to satisfy the set of fairly objective criteria which should be met

in order to be recognized as a sovereign state in the UN context

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Most likely is Parliamentary rejection of final deal/no deal, PM resignation, and collapse of the Government within the next couple of months or three.  That will obviously impact on Brexit.  I'd say there is some doubt as to whether Brexit will even happen, with or without a second referendum.

 

 

agree with you,

I can also see Brexit not happening at all

 

most is up for grabs

 

[melvinmelvin]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

 

agree with you,

I can also see Brexit not happening at all

 

most is up for grabs

 

now,

Id like to repeat what I have said before

the Brexit process is followed in detail by the whole world

 

it has been very damaging for UK's image in my view, regardless of the final outcome

 

keep on vote tory and enjoy

 

 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

Why not to simply encourage Northern Ireland to take a step towards independence so that it could become its own country, which could be part of the EU?

The problem of the EU border is solved by simply separating the country from UK. 

Perhaps, some day in the future, the fine people of Northern Ireland and Ireland can find more common ground than the separating force of religion and these countries could join together.

Perhaps. 

Now that one IS a non-starter.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Stupooey said:

Diego Garcia? Hardly British, doesn't he play for Real Madrid?

Plays for Grateful Dead.

[SheungWan]

22 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

now,

Id like to repeat what I have said before

the Brexit process is followed in detail by the whole world

it has been very damaging for UK's image in my view, regardless of the final outcome

keep on vote tory and enjoy

Well that's very true, but I have had one or two German friends express quiet sympathy for the idea of leaving. Just sayin........

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Well that's very true, but I have had one or two German friends express quiet sympathy for the idea of leaving. Just sayin........

comes as no surprise that some Germans are becoming unhappy

they have to carry several EU related burdens