UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, vogie said:

There you go again being weak and confused, do you think that leavers are bothered about what you want.

No I don't and that is one of the key issues. Brexiteers do not care about others' views. They seem to believe a majority 28 months ago gives them carte Blanche. 

[vogie]

36 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I have no idea what some Brexiteers here are banging on about a lot of the time but there it is.

Oh come on now don't be wan????, don't tell me you are not an avid fan of P Morgan, you have used him in the past to make a point. You'll be telling me next that you don't follow him on twitter and you are not up at crack of dawn chirping away together.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No I don't and that is one of the key issues. Brexiteers do not care about others' views. They seem to believe a majority 28 months ago gives them carte Blanche. 

Like you care for the brexiters views.

So are you saying if I won the Nat Lottery 28 months ago it should be voided, because if I picked them same numbers today they would probably not come out as the winning numbers again.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Like you care for the brexiters views.

So are you saying if I won the Nat Lottery 28 months ago it should be voided, because if I picked them same numbers today they would probably not come out as the winning numbers again.

Actually, I do care about others' views and that is why I am happy to compromise. For example I do want restrictions pin immigration because we are overcrowded. However, I am pro European and anti muslim as you know.

 

I think Brexit is far more complex and important to be compared to a lottery. If you feel getting a majority in the referendum was like winning the lottery you confirm the worst fears of people like me.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Actually, I do care about others' views and that is why I am happy to compromise. For example I do want restrictions pin immigration because we are overcrowded. However, I am pro European and anti muslim as you know.

 

I think Brexit is far more complex and important to be compared to a lottery. If you feel getting a majority in the referendum was like winning the lottery you confirm the worst fears of people like me.

If you care what other people think ie, people that don't share the same values as you, sometimes you and many of your peers have a funny way of showing it. I would suggest name calling and insults hardly makes that person or persons empathetic, infact can create hostility.

 

Again you are putting words into my mouth, I never said that getting a majority in the referendum was like winning the Lottery, but you already knew that, didn't you.

 

I am very pro European and not too keen on the Muslim culture, but being pro European don't mean I want them running our country. There is a vast difference in being pro European and anti EU in my honest opinion anyway.

[tebee]

Scenarios proposed so far:

 

minus

plus plus

Any of the above with extras

Max fac

Transition

No transition

Bespoke

No deal

 

 

Which of these options exactly is the "will of the people"?

[tebee]

14 hours ago, vinny41 said:

 Prof Patrick Minford schools the idiots in Parliament about the EU and trade

Regarding the UK car industry he is talking about moving away from EU protectionism and into more free trade

 

But that  is not the only  vision of the Minford and the right wing Brexiters...

 

Minford’s specific vision is to unilaterally lower tariff barriers across the board.

 

 

Think high-ground, low ground: That would put us down a tariff well...

 

i.e. all countries could pour down goods to us tariff-free. But our producers see high tariff walls all around them.

 

The effect of this is that we do indeed reduce costs for our consumers in the short-term.

 

But where do the consumers get the £ to buy the products? Either by selling products/services at home or abroad.

 

If both of those are out-competed, they have no £ to buy anything with.

 

They would happily run down industries associated with our basic security (food, manufacturing) - and make us a consumer nation that trades on high-tech and services (industries that are, incidentally, pro- Single Market)

 

 

So Brexit’s guru Minford would shaft the industries that voted for Brexit...

 

... and put his faith for Brexit Britain in the industries that are most strongly opposed to Brexit.

 

And that, in a nutshell, is Brexit for you.

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

12 hours ago, oilinki said:

So cute by a country which joined to WWII only after it came to it's borders. So cute to claim to be the heroes of the WWII only after joining the fight when it treated her own borders.

 

Yes, it's widely known that the history is written by those who win the wars. However the statistics, without political tendencies, do tell the own and real story.

 

As I have so often said. I do not have any respect for the people who are trying to abuse the heroism by their grandfathers. I do not respect Nigel Farage a single bit. I do respect the people who have done the march themselves. 

 

I did my own country's military service. I can't claim that I would be much of a help in a battle, should a battle start today. I however can claim that I would do what's right to my country (even if I have said earlier that I'm more for the EU than for my country), than Nigel Farce would do in any harder situation presented in front of me. 

 

Nigel Farage is just like Cadet Bone Spurs. Coward. 

A perfect example of the drivel spouted on here by too large a proportion of those commenting, seemingly having no idea what they're talking about. If one sees BS, one must call it out as such.

 

Domestic borders were threatened thus instigating the UK's entrance into WWII? Arai-wah!? Have a little more respect mate, and at least have it right. Because this is laughable dross I'm afraid... Totally off topic too, but nonetheless an important issue and one that informs the current situation we face to some extent.

 

The same goes for this outlandish appraisal of the EU and it's 'high-minded' work towards an 'egalitarian superstate', nearly as laughable as the above hokum.

--

It's staggering that today with the bank of information so readily accessible by us all, that the minds of so many supposedly educated people have been filled with such nonsense or indoctrinated into thinking a certain way to fit a certain agenda.

 

Brexit is currently a messy situation without precedent being handled poorly by a majority of people who are opposed to its very consummation, and with no clear outcome as of yet at this early stage - however that doesn't invalidate in any way the reasons for it's occurrence. The reasons for leaving are just as solid now as they were in 2016 and before, and will continue to be so. Ironically I would agree with you that we may now be closer to some kind of international conflict within Europe since the end of WWII, but the primary reasons for this are symptoms of the EU and its loony policies. Civil discontent brought about by EU policies (among other influences) has led to the resurgence of the far right and far left. Working people are becoming angrier by the week and more and more are supposedly leaving for greener pastures.

 

The people who sacrificed their lives for a free Europe are not ours to appropriate, I totally agree with you there too, they were friends and family members for may of us. However, I think it is very fair to say that those people will have made sacrifices in vain if our continent fully transgresses into a period defined by undemocratic centralised control - loss of freedom for the citizenry, our political voices ignored by bureaucrats and their corporate cronies. Furtively and with the guise of good intentions, the EU steams ahead with its misguided mission and the countries of Europe become ever more indebted, less prosperous, less contented, less competitive and more divided. Seems to many of us like this is gradually turning into a Europe that isn't worthy of the sacrifice of those you, and others, claim to have so much respect for. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The elephant in the room is Hard Brexiteers thinking they own the process.

DIfferent elephant. If you are right about the "thinking", that's only driven by the continual effort of Rabid Remainers to completely undermine the result of the referendum.

[rixalex]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Parliament has already decided that any deal reached will have to be ratified. No reason at all why this can not be done by means of another referendum. Simple.

 

Of course, whether or not the remain members would allow us to cancel Article 50 and carry on as if nothing had happened is doubtful! I can see them welcoming us back provided we adopted the Euro and fully joined Schengen at least.

 

Maybe you can answer my question; what is it about another referendum which scares Brexiteers?

I already answered the question. Another referendum doesn't scare me. I simply want Brexit to be given the best chance of being successful, and for that to happen, it's imperative that our negotiators strike the best possible deal with the EU. The EU knowing that there is a referendum coming up in which the British public can vote to remain, incentivizes them to give the worst deal possible, knowing the likely outcome will be the British public voting to remain and Britain therefore returning to the EU cap in hand.

 

Having a referendum in which remain is an option is not at all the same as parliament ratifying the deal, because a failure for the deal to be ratified by parliament does not necessarily lead to a reversing of the 2016 result in the way that a referendum vote to remain would.

 

 

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

State of the art as in shooting airliners out of the sky.

Another sick comment. Remainers becoming ever-closer to the bottom of the pit. 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

Minford was the man who thought the poll tax was a good idea - that destroyed Thatcher, just as Brexit will eventually consume the Conservative party 

The poll tax did not destroy Thatcher. Her Europhile lieutenants did.

[billd766]

13 hours ago, oilinki said:

So cute by a country which joined to WWII only after it came to it's borders. So cute to claim to be the heroes of the WWII only after joining the fight when it treated her own borders.

 

Yes, it's widely known that the history is written by those who win the wars. However the statistics, without political tendencies, do tell the own and real story.

 

As I have so often said. I do not have any respect for the people who are trying to abuse the heroism by their grandfathers. I do not respect Nigel Farage a single bit. I do respect the people who have done the march themselves. 

 

I did my own country's military service. I can't claim that I would be much of a help in a battle, should a battle start today. I however can claim that I would do what's right to my country (even if I have said earlier that I'm more for the EU than for my country), than Nigel Farce would do in any harder situation presented in front of me. 

 

Nigel Farage is just like Cadet Bone Spurs. Coward. 

I have to disagree with you completely there.

 

The UK and France declared war on Germany because they invaded Poland and the 2 powers had signed a pact to do so. Finland OTOH actually fought on the side of Germany against Russia before finally changing sides in 1944 to join with the Russians.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Finland_during_World_War_II#Lapland_War

 

If you had listened to Nigel Farage he was certainly not abusing heroism by grandfathers but pointing out the realities of what happened then. I doubt that Nigel Farage is a coward even though you do.

 

I also served the UK for 25 years from 1960 until 1984. By the time Nigel Farage was eligible for military service at the earliest in 1984 the UK forces had drastically slimmed down and required far less people so he chose a different career.

 

How many of your EU heroes such as Juncker, Tusk et al have ever served in the military?

[Orac]

I have to disagree with you completely there.
 
The UK and France declared war on Germany because they invaded Poland and the 2 powers had signed a pact to do so. Finland OTOH actually fought on the side of Germany against Russia before finally changing sides in 1944 to join with the Russians.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Finland_during_World_War_II#Lapland_War
 
If you had listened to Nigel Farage he was certainly not abusing heroism by grandfathers but pointing out the realities of what happened then. I doubt that Nigel Farage is a coward even though you do.
 
I also served the UK for 25 years from 1960 until 1984. By the time Nigel Farage was eligible for military service at the earliest in 1984 the UK forces had drastically slimmed down and required far less people so he chose a different career.
 
How many of your EU heroes such as Juncker, Tusk et al have ever served in the military?

Can’t stand Juncker myself but you are being a tad unfair questioning Tusk not doing military service since it was hardly a viable option for him in Poland given his opposition to communism, involvement with Solidarity and being imprisoned under General Jaruzelski.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[BwindiBoy]

51 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I already answered the question. Another referendum doesn't scare me. I simply want Brexit to be given the best chance of being successful, and for that to happen, it's imperative that our negotiators strike the best possible deal with the EU. The EU knowing that there is a referendum coming up in which the British public can vote to remain, incentivizes them to give the worst deal possible, knowing the likely outcome will be the British public voting to remain and Britain therefore returning to the EU cap in hand.

 

Having a referendum in which remain is an option is not at all the same as parliament ratifying the deal, because a failure for the deal to be ratified by parliament does not necessarily lead to a reversing of the 2016 result in the way that a referendum vote to remain would.

 

 

Spot on. The belligerent cannot see this, unfortunately.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The poll tax did not destroy Thatcher. Her Europhile lieutenants did.

You're doing that Brexiters thing of reinventing history again.

 

Poll tax introduced in April 1990 .

 

Wildly unpopular, riots in the streets, people refuse to pay in droves.

 

Conservative lead over Labour collapses.

 

Tories realize they need to get rid of poll tax to be re-elected, can't do with her as PM, get rid of her in November 1990.

 

The abolition of the poll tax was announced on 21 March 1991. Vat raised in meantime to allow reduction of poll tax bills

 

There were European issues but they were not what killed Thatchers support.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

You're doing that Brexiters thing of reinventing history again.

 

Poll tax introduced in April 1990 .

 

Wildly unpopular, riots in the streets, people refuse to pay in droves.

 

Conservative lead over Labour collapses.

 

Tories realize they need to get rid of poll tax to be re-elected, can't do with her as PM, get rid of her in November 1990.

 

The abolition of the poll tax was announced on 21 March 1991. Vat raised in meantime to allow reduction of poll tax bills

 

There were European issues but they were not what killed Thatchers support.

'You're doing that Brexiters thing of reinventing history again' 

Woooaaah, hang on now. That's quite an indictment coming from the remain/project fear Europhile camp. Especially considering some of the pseudo-historical codswallop that's already been called out by myself and 'bill d' just a few comments back.

 

Are you suggesting Major and his pro-EU cohorts hadn't been plotting Maggie's demise long before the disastrous poll tax policy?

 

Her distaste for Maastricht, the EU project in general and the catastrophe of ERM are just as important to her downfall it could be argued, via opposition and subsequent mutiny within the Tory party.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

'Yes, it's widely known that the history is written by those who win the wars. However the statistics, without political tendencies, do tell the own and real story.'

 

Have to ask - what 'real story' would that be then?

 

 

British Empire and Commonwealth

Total Armed forces: All branches of service

17,843,000

580,497

475,000

318,000

3.3

United States

Total U.S. Armed Forces

16,353,639

407,316

671,846

130,201

2.5

Soviet Union

Total Soviet Forces

34,476,700

10,725,345

14,915,517

5,750,000

31.1

Germany

Total (incl. conscripted foreigners)

18,200,000

5,318,000

6,035,000

11,100,000

29.2

 

 

You do realise that upwards of 6 million soviet troops and civilians died from famine and disease directly resulting from the war, right? The figure for Germany is also very high, including POW deaths, with a precise figure being unknown.

 

The USA and British E&C (incl. IND, AUS, NZ, CAN, SA) expended less in the way of troops or civillain deaths than both Germany or the USSR (for many reasons, not least because none were occupied), these two juggernauts fought bitterly over a huge land area throwing millions of men into the fray, destroying much of their human potential and nearly wiping out whole generations in the process. Do the smaller figures of military/civilian losses make the US or Brit E&C efforts less heroic, committed or necessary in combating the Axis aggressors internationally? No, of course not, but then anyone who knows the history of the period knows this.

With whom did Finland align themselves during the preliminary stages of WWII again, remind me, if you can?

 

'People in glass houses' pal. ????

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

I already answered the question. Another referendum doesn't scare me. I simply want Brexit to be given the best chance of being successful, and for that to happen, it's imperative that our negotiators strike the best possible deal with the EU. The EU knowing that there is a referendum coming up in which the British public can vote to remain, incentivizes them to give the worst deal possible, knowing the likely outcome will be the British public voting to remain and Britain therefore returning to the EU cap in hand.

 

Having a referendum in which remain is an option is not at all the same as parliament ratifying the deal, because a failure for the deal to be ratified by parliament does not necessarily lead to a reversing of the 2016 result in the way that a referendum vote to remain would.

 

 

In effect then you are making the claim that the Remainers are to blame for the failure to strike a deal that the electorate and Parliament deems acceptable.  

 

It was clear early on that the most satisfactory deal was not available.  There is a very limited scope for negotiation anyway.  However, there are some attractive options such as EFTA that could have proved do-able had the Government applied its efforts effectively instead of pursuing a hard deal.

 

In my opinion, by far the biggest problem is the undue influence of the right wingers in the Tory Party, together with the Government's poor performance, although to some extent this may be mitigated by the former.

 

The biggest shame in all this is that when one examines the case for Brexit, as presented reasonably, then one can see that Leave has justifiable cause for alarm over the EU, though in my opinion the Leave cause fails when we consider economic strategy- 2/10 on this. Sadly, reasonable argument fell by the wayside mainly because of the misinformation perpetrated by the hard right, which started in the referendum and continues to this day.

 

 

 

 

[tebee]

38 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

'You're doing that Brexiters thing of reinventing history again' 

Woooaaah, hang on now. That's quite an indictment coming from the remain/project fear Europhile camp. Especially considering some of the pseudo-historical codswallop that's already been called out by myself and 'bill d' just a few comments back.

 

Are you suggesting Major and his pro-EU cohorts hadn't been plotting Maggie's demise long before the disastrous poll tax policy?

 

Her distaste for Maastricht, the EU project in general and the catastrophe of ERM are just as important to her downfall it could be argued, via opposition and subsequent mutiny within the Tory party.

 

 

Oh come on, this is Conservative party we are talking about, the number of Knives in the back make the Roman Senate look like a kids playground. Everybody is always plotting against everybody else.

 

And remember, not long before, Maggie had been very pro-Europe - the Single market was her idea.

 

It was the poll tax that killed her politically though, without it other factions would never have had the power to overthrow her. 

 

I don't know what Brexit will do to the current Conservative party, I suspect it won't survive in it's present form. It has certainly lost it's appeal as the sensible party of buisness.

[rixalex]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

In effect then you are making the claim that the Remainers are to blame for the failure to strike a deal that the electorate and Parliament deems acceptable. 

I'm making the claim that if another referendum is called in which there is an option to remain, it will cut the legs from beneath our already rather hopeless negotiators. It would guarantee the EU offer us a bad deal. Obviously this suits remainers as not only do they get a second shot at winning a vote they lost, it means there is no chance of Britain getting a good deal, so even if Brexit does happen in spite of their efforts to prevent it, they'll get the satisfaction of saying, "see, i told you so".

[mommysboy]

Just now, tebee said:

Oh come on, this is Conservative party we are talking about, the number of Knives in the back make the Roman Senate look like a kids playground. Everybody is always plotting against everybody else.

 

And remember, not long before, Maggie had been very pro-Europe - the Single market was her idea.

 

It was the poll tax that killed her politically though, without it other factions would never have had the power to overthrow her. 

 

I don't know what Brexit will do to the current Conservative party, I suspect it won't survive in it's present form. It has certainly lost it's appeal as the sensible party of buisness.

'It has certainly lost it's appeal as the sensible party of buisness.'

 

Absolutely. And this is astonishing really.

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I'm making the claim that if another referendum is called in which there is an option to remain, it will cut the legs from beneath our already rather hopeless negotiators. It would guarantee the EU offer us a bad deal. Obviously this suits remainers as not only do they get a second shot at winning a vote they lost, it means there is no chance of Britain getting a good deal, so even if Brexit does happen in spite of their efforts to prevent it, they'll get the satisfaction of saying, "see, i told you so".

 

The EU will surely already be aware of the fragility of the Government, and it's somewhat tentative mandate.

 

The deal imagined was never on the cards.  The plan adopted by the Government is not popular- full stop.

 

Brexit will fail, in the short term at least, because the EU wants it to.

 

Poor strategy- start to finish.  In it's dithering, stalling, and filibustering the Government allowed the Brexit wagon to fall in to disrepair.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by mommysboy

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

If you care what other people think ie, people that don't share the same values as you, sometimes you and many of your peers have a funny way of showing it. I would suggest name calling and insults hardly makes that person or persons empathetic, infact can create hostility.

 

Again you are putting words into my mouth, I never said that getting a majority in the referendum was like winning the Lottery, but you already knew that, didn't you.

 

I am very pro European and not too keen on the Muslim culture, but being pro European don't mean I want them running our country. There is a vast difference in being pro European and anti EU in my honest opinion anyway.

I guess some people are more sensitive than others. I have moderated my tone over the last year.

 

I have no wish to insult anyone personally

 

I do feel that Brexit is idiotic from any rational angle. If you feel that comment insults you then I am sorry but that is my opinion.

 

 

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I'm making the claim that if another referendum is called in which there is an option to remain, it will cut the legs from beneath our already rather hopeless negotiators. It would guarantee the EU offer us a bad deal. Obviously this suits remainers as not only do they get a second shot at winning a vote they lost, it means there is no chance of Britain getting a good deal, so even if Brexit does happen in spite of their efforts to prevent it, they'll get the satisfaction of saying, "see, i told you so".

The EU can already offer us any deal it wants - they know the gov is desperate to avoid no deal. 

Our negotiators are useless and half of them seem to have no idea how the EU works.

Any good deal we  get will only be through the EUs generosity, not our negotiators prowess  

[rixalex]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

The EU will surely already be aware of the fragility of the Government, and it's somewhat tentative mandate.

 

The deal imagined was never on the cards.  The plan adopted by the Government is not popular- full stop.

 

Brexit will fail, in the short term at least, because the EU wants it to.

 

Poor strategy- start to finish.  In it's dithering, stalling, and filibustering the Government allowed the Brexit wagon to fall in to disrepair.

 

 

Some points i agree with there but none really related to the question that was asked, that i was addressing.

[nontabury]

15 hours ago, oilinki said:

If 750.000 (million) brexiteers have already passed away since the referendum, doesn't it mean that there are currently more people alive who were against brexit than for brexit?

 

How is that democracy and executing the will of the people?

Many people who did vote for remain in the referendum, have now seen the reality of what the E.U. Represents, and are now firm Brixeteers.

One very good example being Caroline Flint, the member of Parliament for Don Valley (Doncaster). She voted remain, yet respects her constituents, who voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, and as such has defended their democratic decision to lave the hated E.U.

 And how have some remainers reacted to her stance, well they have physically threated her, and other prominent Brixeteers.

In fact it would appear that this is how the bully boy E.U supporters operate. Unfortunately they underestimate the resolve of the British people, as Miss Macron is finding out with his latest threat to block the port of Dover, unless we agree to the E.U. terms.

is it any wonder that more and more Brits are coming around to favoring a Very hard Brexit. Which will hopefully occur when Appeaser May is despatched to the back benches.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

19 minutes ago, tebee said:

Oh come on, this is Conservative party we are talking about, the number of Knives in the back make the Roman Senate look like a kids playground. Everybody is always plotting against everybody else.

 

And remember, not long before, Maggie had been very pro-Europe - the Single market was her idea.

 

It was the poll tax that killed her politically though, without it other factions would never have had the power to overthrow her. 

 

I don't know what Brexit will do to the current Conservative party, I suspect it won't survive in it's present form. It has certainly lost it's appeal as the sensible party of buisness.

Haha, true enough tbf to you.

 

I realise Thatcher made a massive u-turn on Europe through the course of her political life, I think she woke up to the unpleasant facts late on. I can't say I remember it well though as I was far too young to keep abreast of current affairs at that time.

 

I would simply contest that Major et al had it in for her for many months before the poll tax riots and that her refusal to sign Maastricht and her growing anti-EU sentiment is what finished her off, from within her own party.

 

The poll tax issue, it's fair to say, was the last nail in the coffin for her politically, but her own party had been seeking to oust her for some time, as we now know. The Cons stopped being traditionally Tory and abandoned much of their core and established electorate a long time ago. It will be interesting indeed to see what happens to them, I too think they're dead on their feet at this point. A shake up is needed within British politics, UKIP and Brexit lit the powder keg you could argue, it was a long time coming and overdue IMO.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

You're doing that Brexiters thing of reinventing history again.

 

Poll tax introduced in April 1990 .

 

Wildly unpopular, riots in the streets, people refuse to pay in droves.

 

Conservative lead over Labour collapses.

 

Tories realize they need to get rid of poll tax to be re-elected, can't do with her as PM, get rid of her in November 1990.

 

The abolition of the poll tax was announced on 21 March 1991. Vat raised in meantime to allow reduction of poll tax bills

 

There were European issues but they were not what killed Thatchers support.

I remember the poll tax problems. But as far as the Tories were concerned the problem her swing against the European Community. Howe did not resign, then get his dagger out over the poll tax, it was because of the ERM and Europe.

[rixalex]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

The EU can already offer us any deal it wants - they know the gov is desperate to avoid no deal. 

Our negotiators are useless and half of them seem to have no idea how the EU works.

Any good deal we  get will only be through the EUs generosity, not our negotiators prowess  

The EU can already offer us any deal it wants - they know the gov is desperate to avoid no deal. 

 

No it can't. Completely untrue. A bad deal will hurt the EU too. The EU is trying to strike a balance between punishing us so other nations don't get any funny ideas about leaving too, whilst at the same time, not punishing itself. The problem for the EU is that it's hard to do both.

 

Any good deal we  get will only be through the EUs generosity, not our negotiators prowess 

 

The EU doesn't have any generosity. They are just trying to get the best possible deal for themselves. Perfectly understandable. We should be doing the same.

 

Not impossible but not easy when you've got all these cries of, "let's capitulate... we are weak... we are nothing without the EU", from not only the sidelines, but from within our own camp.