UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

9 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

People with skills anywhere in Europe will always be able to find work in Europe. So-called unskilled jobs will also remain open to those East Europeans currently in employment .... I doubt there will be any future serious constraints if demand for Labour continues.

 

The LOS model on Immigration is a good place to start...... you can stay if you can evidence the ability to support yourself but there is no immediate right to any benefits. After a period of paying into the system benefits/NHS could start to become available.

 

Yes I would broadly agree. This is what we of course ALWAYS should have had. A points system could work, similar to Australia's, somewhere between the two even. We don't owe anyone coming in to the country anything and that has been one of the central issues with historic immigration. Let the demand of the market dictate the surpluses and deficits. The public have had enough of the old ruinous model imposed on working people by those who remain largely unaffected by it. It's criminal and I hope will soon be at an end. 

 

If you have the skills and experience and willingness to learn and integrate, you should be welcomed with open arms. Our exit from the EUSSR will also open up the world and its people to us like never before and it will mean a halt to this ridiculous discrimination against all non-EU citizens such as my Thai-Burmese girlfriend for one, and countless millions more from across the WORLD. Bring it on! 

Edited October 3, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

If/when I have lived away from the UK for 15 years, I won't complain if I can't vote. After all, why should I vote on topics affecting a country I no longer live in? 

Why should I have the same voting rights as those who are still living there and will be directly affected by the result?

 

Because rightly or wrongly many of your rights are tied to your country of nationality - even if this is only an accident of birth.

 

If one could change one's nationality easily at a whim I'd be not unhappy to lose my rights to participate in UK democrocay, but that is not something that is possible.

 

Given that most of us can't vote in our adopted counties general elections, why should we lose all our democratic rights ?

     

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

25 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

More evidence of desperation from some of the Remoaner crowd who cannot accept their losing position.

 

Sensationalism is all they have left... sadly, they seem to forget that it also failed to work in June 2016.

 

Ad hominem attacks, self-serving lies and sensationalised horse s**t is all they ever had, yes. To me the biggest travesty is that so many fellow Brits bought into it. Many probably had no clue and felt that since trendy metropolitan types, possibly their friends and many celebs were endorsing Remain, that this was the right thing to do and that Brexit held no merit. Oh how silly they would feel if they actually kept an open mind and did some research. Needless to say the majority never did and probably had no intention to.

 

Modern maladies eh!

 

'No one knows anything, they just feel warm and fuzzy about things' - Mark Steyn.

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[My Thai Life]

“Leftwing Brexiters want out from the 'transnational juggernaut”

 @mommysboy asked me a few days go if I was a socialist. It’s not an easy question to answer, as I’ve never felt comfortable in off the peg politics, and I’ve never been in one country long enough to engage in politics.

But there was an interesting article in The Guardian a couple of days ago about leftwing Brexiters, including a brief review 0f 2 new books by left-wing thinkers.

 The are quite a few people on this thread who do consider themselves to be socialist, so they might want to consider this:

the “EU’s bias in favour of multinational capital, its hardwired monetarism and its obsession with balanced budgets means it is more Thatcherite than social democratic.”

The Left Case Against the EU by Costas Lapavitsas; Polity

The Left Case for Brexit by Philip Whyman; Civitas

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/30/leftwing-brexiters-want-out-from-the-transnational-juggernaut

[CG1 Blue]

18 minutes ago, tebee said:

Because rightly or wrongly many of your rights are tied to your country of nationality - even if this is only an accident of birth.

 

If one could change one's nationality easily at a whim I'd be not unhappy to lose my rights to participate in UK democrocay, but that is not something that is possible.

 

Given that most of us can't vote in our adopted counties general elections, why should we lose all our democratic rights ?

     

I just think it's a little unfair voting from afar on things that affect people in your former country. I think 15 years is a reasonable cut-off point.

Ok, you like to participate in democracy. But this isn't a game - your vote would affect real people's lives in the UK - people who still live there and experience what it's like living in that country right now. Do you think you have the right to do that?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

16 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

“Leftwing Brexiters want out from the 'transnational juggernaut”

 @mommysboy asked me a few days go if I was a socialist. It’s not an easy question to answer, as I’ve never felt comfortable in off the peg politics, and I’ve never been in one country long enough to engage in politics.

But there was an interesting article in The Guardian a couple of days ago about leftwing Brexiters, including a brief review 0f 2 new books by left-wing thinkers.

 The are quite a few people on this thread who do consider themselves to be socialist, so they might want to consider this:

the “EU’s bias in favour of multinational capital, its hardwired monetarism and its obsession with balanced budgets means it is more Thatcherite than social democratic.”

The Left Case Against the EU by Costas Lapavitsas; Polity

The Left Case for Brexit by Philip Whyman; Civitas

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/30/leftwing-brexiters-want-out-from-the-transnational-juggernaut

 

Fair points. Unknown by many I fear.

 

People who know nothing about the circumstances around our initial entrance and the political divide around the vote to do so, back in 1973, don't realise that it was the LEFT who were Eurosceptic, not the right. Enoch Powell defected to Labour from his Tory seat in Parliament for that very reason. Tony Benn lead the rallying cry against big buisness / multinational hegemony and its enabling by the EEC after all, not Heath or his acolytes.

 

Heath et al wanted to to join the protectionist cartel in the hopes it would aid multinational capital investment and create increased FDI, successive governments then allowed the ever increasing union to continue because it benefited the political class and their donors in finance and the corporate world. The EU is and always was all about elitism, rigging the system in the favour of multinationals and continuing the wealth transfer from the poor to the rich. Its fundamental lack of electoral democracy should be case in point. The few control the many - simple as that.

 

Oh sure, chuck in a few human rights and workers rights directives to misdirect the average Joe in the street and people soon start singing the EUs praises, erroneously so.

 

It's very much akin to when people say that the EU is solely responsible for everyone eating good quality food for 50 years whilst simultaneously ignoring the criminality and corruption of the CAP and CFP. Or perhaps, like so many other aspects, they have no idea about it?

 

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Janner1]

8 hours ago, tebee said:

one million brits who have live outside the UK for more than 15 years were disenfranchised - some of these are directly affected by the result of the vote  

 

No they were not, they had every right to vote in the referendum and most did, and those who voted to remain not because they were patriotic and interested in the future of their country, but because of self preservation, lost the DEMOCRATIC vote.

 

melvinmelvin,

In answer to your question 

There are one or two anomalies but for the most part Yes they can, they need do nothing more than register for a postal vote and as long as they retain the British passport they retain the power to vote.

 

[Janner1]

18 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

But there was an interesting article in The Guardian a couple of days ago about leftwing Brexiters, including a brief review 0f 2 new books by left-wing thinkers.

 

This comment is entire without prejudice 

The Guardian is a cesspit of extreme left wing socialism so you can be sure absolutely everything reported will be total lies and extremely biased.

Sadly socialists believe their own rhetoric and find it impossible to confront the truth.

[welovesundaysatspace]

54 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

this ridiculous discrimination against all non-EU citizens such as my Thai-Burmese girlfriend for one

It’s not discrimination when your girl cannot get a visa. Stop spreading such nonsense. Thais can get a Schengen tourist or visitor visa. They can also get a work, business or study visa if they fulfill the requirements. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, Janner1 said:

 

No they were not, they had every right to vote in the referendum and most did, and those who voted to remain not because they were patriotic and interested in the future of their country, but because of self preservation, lost the DEMOCRATIC vote.

 

-

 

Stop talking rubbish Man, no they didn't have any right to vote - there is a court case going on about it at the moment .

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-talks-illegal-uk-expats-british-abroad-not-vote-french-lawyer-julien-fouchet-european-a7745216.html

[CG1 Blue]

41 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Ad hominem attacks, self-serving lies and sensationalised horse s**t is all they ever had, yes. To me the biggest travesty is that so many fellow Brits bought into it. Many probably had no clue and felt that since trendy metropolitan types, possibly their friends and many celebs were endorsing Remain, that this was the right thing to do and that Brexit held no merit. Oh how silly they would feel if they actually kept an open mind and did some research. Needless to say the majority never did and probably had no intention to.

 

Modern maladies eh!

 

'No one knows anything, they just feel warm and fuzzy about things' - Mark Steyn.

 

But Russell Brand, Bob Geldof and and Eddie Izzard supported Remain. Oh, and the Beckhams. So it must be right? ????

 

Re the Beckhams, David voted Remain because he really enjoyed playing football with other players from across Europe. And Victoria supported him.  That's despite her saying her following in 1996:

 

"The whole European Federal plan is ridiculous. We are patriotic. The single currency is an outrage.

"We want the Queen's head — or the King's head if we have a king — on our own coins."

"It's been a terrible trick on the British people," said Victoria, reportedly outraged by "the impertinence of the bureaucrats in Brussels. "The Euro-bureaucrats are destroying every bit of national identity and individuality."

 

 

 

 

 

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

This is what I was referring to when I mentioned "conditions and restrictions but these are difficult to control or are not well applied". 

 

It is not so easy to send people away and enforcing the rules is time-consuming and costly. EU Citizens have several other EU rights to fall back on if they face removal back to their home nations. Just yet another sub-web of control and imposition from the EU.

And as I said before these conditions and restrictions are very easily applied to Non EU citizens. Discrimination, exercised by the UK government and blamed on the EU.

[tebee]

35 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I just think it's a little unfair voting from afar on things that affect people in your former country. I think 15 years is a reasonable cut-off point.

Ok, you like to participate in democracy. But this isn't a game - your vote would affect real people's lives in the UK - people who still live there and experience what it's like living in that country right now. Do you think you have the right to do that?

But that is my point - it does directly affect me.

 

At this point in time I have no certainty that I will be allowed to live in my own house after next March 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

20 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

It’s not discrimination when your girl cannot get a visa. Stop spreading such nonsense. Thais can get a Schengen tourist or visitor visa. They can also get a work, business or study visa if they fulfill the requirements. 

 

Stop with your asinine and AS EVER uninformed comments ok, it's tiring. I never said she couldn't get a visa, she can and will in the future and has once before already. What I said was that the UK government discriminates against her or ANYONE else from outside the EU in regards to granting all types of visa - particularly work, study or business. If you disagree with that then you are REALLY showing your utter ignorance of the situation. Refrain from misquoting or falsely appropriating sentiments to me. Not cool.

Edited October 3, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[My Thai Life]

15 minutes ago, Janner1 said:

This comment is entire without prejudice 

The Guardian is a cesspit of extreme left wing socialism so you can be sure absolutely everything reported will be total lies and extremely biased.

Sadly socialists believe their own rhetoric and find it impossible to confront the truth.

Wow, as per my post the other day, my MSM sources are Guardian, BBC, Telegraph. Whether you like The Guardian or not, it can hardly be described as a "cesspit". The Guardian generally aligns with Remain, so I thought this article on the socialist reasons for Leave might be of interest, especially would-be remain socialists on this forum.

 

The problem with just reading the stuff that aligns with you own views, whether they be left or right, is that you end up in a self-reinforcing echo chamber, and get commensurately shocked when confronted by people with opposite views - as we see every day on this forum. 

 

Obviously you haven't bothered to read the article, you've just spouted your prejudices for all the world to see.

[CG1 Blue]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

But that is my point - it does directly affect me.

 

At this point in time I have no certainty that I will be allowed to live in my own house after next March 

You think the EU will have you kicked out of your house in France after we leave? They don't sound like very nice people to me.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

 

So how come my home town is plagued with unemployed Romanians, who are assaulting, sexually assaulting, raping, and thieving their way to ruining the town? Their kids are terrorising the local kids (and adults), from the age if 6, riding around in gangs, robbing mobile phones, bicycles and other property out of the hands of frightened locals. How come these benefits leaching scum are able to stay here without "sufficient resources not to become a burden"?!

You should ask the government, after all it is them that is responsible. Of course they will blame the EU, never admit to under funding the enforcement agencies.

 

Brexit has always been about money and emotion, predominantly money.

If no one had to wait to see a doctor or to have an operation, and

If the elderly and mentally ill were efficiently treated with respect, and

If the police had crime under control, and 

If every school was performing to an acceptable level, and

If the social security system was running smoothly, and 

If the unemployed Romanians had been dealt with quickly and deported,

Then it would have been a different outcome altogether and the emotional paranoids would have been left crying in their beer.

The austerity program has a lot to answer for.

[dunroaming]

13 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

But Russell Brand, Bob Geldof and and Eddie Izzard supported Remain. Oh, and the Beckhams. So it must be right? ????

 

Re the Beckhams, David voted Remain because he really enjoyed playing football with other players from across Europe. And Victoria supported him.  That's despite her saying her following in 1996:

 

"The whole European Federal plan is ridiculous. We are patriotic. The single currency is an outrage.

"We want the Queen's head — or the King's head if we have a king — on our own coins."

"It's been a terrible trick on the British people," said Victoria, reportedly outraged by "the impertinence of the bureaucrats in Brussels. "The Euro-bureaucrats are destroying every bit of national identity and individuality."

 

 

 

 

 

Don't think we can learn much from Mr and Mrs Beckham actually.  But Victoria speaking in 1996 doesn't relate to what she might say today.  Especially when she has an international business heavily dependent on the European market and an extensive presence in Paris.  Come to think of it, the things I said in 1996 hardly reflect what I would say today.  That's a lot of water under a lot of bridges ????

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

 

How much tax did those one million pay to the UK Treasury during those 15 years since they abandoned their home country?

What on earth makes you think that expats do not pay tax.

[sandyf]

It has often been said that brexit was about taking back control, looks like it may have been right.

 

Theresa May will try to take back control of her party on Wednesday after its members queued for hours to hear Boris Johnson demand her Brexit agenda be dumped.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-boris-johnson-speech-tory-party-chequers-uk-eu-a8565626.html

[welovesundaysatspace]

17 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

the UK government discriminates against her or ANYONE else from outside the EU in regards to granting all types of visa - particularly work, study or business.

That’s just an accusation. 

 

17 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If you disagree with that then you are REALLY showing your utter ignorance of the situation.

If you want someone to agree to your accusations, then provide evidence for it. 

 

[CG1 Blue]

6 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Don't think we can learn much from Mr and Mrs Beckham actually.  But Victoria speaking in 1996 doesn't relate to what she might say today.  Especially when she has an international business heavily dependent on the European market and an extensive presence in Paris.  Come to think of it, the things I said in 1996 hardly reflect what I would say today.  That's a lot of water under a lot of bridges ????

Exactly, so she fundamentally objected to the EU principles and loss of sovereignty, until she had had businesses that were helped by EU membership. This is a bit of a theme with many remainers I know. They voted remain purely because it helps their business. They forgot about their principles or the wider impact on their country.

I on the other hand voted Leave, despite the fact it could harm my career (financial services). I had the same feelings about the EU in 1996 as I have now.

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

33 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

That’s just an accusation. 

 

If you want someone to agree to your accusations, then provide evidence for it. 

 

 

Yeh of course you'd think that, you probably think its just another 'accusation' like your utterly erroneous one above! Difference is this, you may make lots of false accusations in your daily life, I don't engage in such activity. We on the Brexit side of the argument don't need to lie or even exaggerate to make our case, you see. 

 

So, you know what? As I have already provided so many facts throughout this thread and from doing so have garnered (in my eyes) some significant praise and agreement and have had interesting exchanges with people whose opinions I would place a lot more validity in than yours, I feel there is no onus on me to continue providing. 

 

I could quote people in government, business and the like, provide some reliable anecdotal evidence, even show you irrefutable figures too...but chances are you'd disbelieve it as you clearly have with other facts that I have listed previously.

 

No point in trying to change an entrenched view, not my concern. All I'd say is this, try opening your mind and realising that these things are ALL about quotas and when it comes to EU citizens we don't decide such quotas, they do. EU Rules and regs supersede our own, that's a big part of what this Brexit thing is all about. 

 

You've simply spouted drivel and misquoted people, so hows about this... if YOU think I'm incorrect in what I'm saying then try to disprove my claim...oh sorry, 'accusation'. ???? I know you won't be able to.

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[dunroaming]

6 minutes ago, sandyf said:

What on earth makes you think that expats do not pay tax.

 

I did and so did/do the working age expats that I knew/know.  I am now an ex-ex-pat.  But all ex-pats are different and some will have strong ties to their home countries and some won't.  It is further complicated by the retired ex-pats who have decided to not live or contribute to their country of origin.  Their only real interest in their former country tends to be the value of their pensions and possible investments.  Apart from that the state of the potholes and the amount of soi dogs in the neighbourhood they now live in will have far more relevance.

 

I found that when I was an ex-pat, I felt far more patriotic than when I lived in the UK.  I followed my football team more closely and was very defensive when anyone attacked almost anything "British".   This was particularly prevalent when I lived in the USA and also Hong Kong. Like wise I would find myself chumming up with other Brits that, in the UK, I would have no common ground with at all.  Surprisingly they often turned into the closest friendships. 

 

My point is this.  I always had close ties to the UK when not living there through family, friends and business interests.  I always voted because it directly affected me, no matter where I lived.  But most of the ex-pats I met didn't have the connections I did and were fairly indifferent to what was happening back in Blighty.  Now with Brexit looming it appears that everyone is passionate about the country they have happily left behind.

[BwindiBoy]

35 minutes ago, sandyf said:

What on earth makes you think that expats do not pay tax.

 

Please show me where I said that.

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

We on the Brexit side of the argument don't need to lie or even exaggerate to make our case, you see. 

...says the one who accomplished to write four paragraphs and still couldn’t provide any evidence for his bold accusations. Bravo! That’s really you “on the Brexit side”. 

 

Truth is: Plenty of Thais get all sorts of visa for Schengen, including work, business and study visa. Not even particularly difficult. So stop talking nonsense. 

 

[nauseus]

44 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You should ask the government, after all it is them that is responsible. Of course they will blame the EU, never admit to under funding the enforcement agencies.

 

Brexit has always been about money and emotion, predominantly money.

If no one had to wait to see a doctor or to have an operation, and

If the elderly and mentally ill were efficiently treated with respect, and

If the police had crime under control, and 

If every school was performing to an acceptable level, and

If the social security system was running smoothly, and 

If the unemployed Romanians had been dealt with quickly and deported,

Then it would have been a different outcome altogether and the emotional paranoids would have been left crying in their beer.

The austerity program has a lot to answer for.

 

Still no clue why the majority want to leave. 

[brewsterbudgen]

 
Still no clue why the majority want to leave. 

I don't think that is the case any more. Let the people decide, and we'll find out.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[tebee]

Project fear eh?

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/paris-motor-show-no-deal-brexit-and-we-ll-have-to-leave-warns-bmw-9jf7sr5sr

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

...says the one who accomplished to write four paragraphs and still couldn’t provide any evidence for his bold accusations. Bravo! That’s really you “on the Brexit side”. 

 

Truth is: Plenty of Thais get all sorts of visa for Schengen, including work, business and study visa. Not even particularly difficult. So stop talking nonsense. 

 

 

As I said, I have already provided more than enough evidence to support my claims re: Brexit again and again. Just take a look back through the thread & that will become clear. There is no need for me to provide any more, the onus is on YOU. But you won't do it I'm sure because you're both unable to and probably not inclined to even try. I'm not going to change your misinformed beliefs, and I don't need to anyhow. Our side won! ???? 

 

BUT, I don't like being misquoted or misrepresented. This is the last resort of the person without an argument - such as yourself.

 

I never once said it wasn't possible for people from Thailand (as an example) to get a UK visa. It is NOT easy, especially the first time round to get any of the visas you have quoted, in reality, but it IS possible, of course.

 

Do you have ANY experience trying to get a Thai or any non EU national a visitor or work or study visa? If so then list it for me. Again, I'm sure you won't do.

 

Misquotes and drivel aside, what I did say was that the UK government discriminates against non EU citizens. As in they're not treated equally, for very very obvious reasons, if you think about the nature of the set up of the EU. Just as a little tidbit, and since it EVEN comes from The Guardian, (and judging by your apparent lack of critical thinking and political stance I'm sure you love a bit of The Guardian) I thought I'd share it with you.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/13/diane-abbott-to-announce-labour-plans-to-overhaul-visa-policy

Edited October 3, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker