UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

It's simply Starmer's ready made excuse to reject any deal.  The only way to pass the 6 'tests' is to remain in the EU.

 

So much was promised by the Brexiteers. Shouldn't lie like that. It's the opposition holding the Government to account, while at the same time seeking to gain power themselves. That's politics!

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, oilinki said:

You called? ????

 

 

 

Thornbury - a true sign of desperation 

[CG1 Blue]

33 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

'Ultimately people voted with their gut'.

 

But that's really not enough is it? I mean it's so much more than just wanting, and wishing! It's an interesting point though, because I think another referendum would produce much the same result. However, when we come down to specific issues, such as the type of deal, it's funny that people are resoundingly behind the single market option, or more precisely against anything that smacks of hard Brexit. I guess the questions are a reality check.

 

Yes, it should be noted there were lies on the Remain side too, as big, maybe bigger.  But what can you say?... two wrongs never made a right.

 

If Labour dig their heels in, and why shouldn't they because the likely plan simply won't meet what was envisaged (as we might politely say). and is simply not what people want, then anything could happen, so to say there won't be a second referendum of some sort is somewhat optimistic imo. What we saw last week was a show of stability and calm, but how long will that last?

 

At root, Brexit in anything other than single market form is simply unpopular, and so too is staying in the EU. A poison chalice made worse by toxic lies on both sides. 

 

 

I agree with some of what you say.  I disagree with this bit: "At root, Brexit in anything other than single market form is simply unpopular"

 

The single market is the cornerstone of the EU.  You can't leave the EU and stay in the SM. Most people understand this now.

If you mean the public don't want to leave without a free trade agreement with the EU, you may have a point. And actually a FTA is looking more likely now.

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

3 hours ago, oilinki said:

You called? ????

 

 

I don't usually pay much attention to Mrs. Thornberry here as she so often talks a load of old toot, many of her opinions are seemingly derived from and speak to metropolitan type neoliberals and their echo chamber of ignorance and pomposity. I found myself giving her a little more credit than normal this time round, however, in view of some of what she said here.

 

The video, for my money, that should be watched, listened to and properly understood was actually on the same playlist as the above though.

 

I am, generally speaking, a fan of both the Hitchens brothers, and IMO Peter has spoken and written a lot of sense in recent times and has done so with sincerity, great eloquence and undeniable balls. He is among a few outspoken quality journalists who have the rare combination of integrity and intelligence. He isn't afraid to speak his mind, presenting unpopular, anti-establishment opinions rooted in undeniable truth, with the knowledge that he'll be attacked, mocked and marginalised for doing so.

 

I have read the book he is on air here to promote, and it is a highly interesting, astute and, sadly, pretty depressing read, and although I definitely don't agree with all of his sentiments or align my views with his across the board, I do think he's very often right on the money in his appraisal of the past, the poor decisions that have been made and then repeated, the UK's fall from grace and its very uncertain future. Where my opinion differs from his, is that I believe the UK does at least have a chance of a bright future. Less influence than in previous times, to be sure, and achieved only by traversing possibly quite a tumultuous road. The UK isn't alone in that possible future, I'd say, either. His reference to statistics used to justify claims of prosperity and to inflate the UK's supposed affluence and power are spot on, it's based on what at the end of it all? DEBT! The same falsities are employed to promote the affluence and economic influence of every major country in the western world and a fair few outside of it, however.

 

It may be nihilistic and a little alarmist in some people's eyes, but I think it's a reality check and fundamentally accurate. Another reason for leaving the debt ridden EU is to make a go of things on our own as a nation without being liable for the inevitable financial/fiscal time bomb that will ensure the demise of the European project. Having for a long time 'punched above our weight' (being on the face of it, a wet and grey, diminutive outcrop off the western coast of Europe) we shouldn't (in theory) have a problem continuing to do so, albeit in a different way and via different methods than those employed in the past, of course. AND, undeniably, with the right leadership and collective attitude of the population, healing of divisions would be a good place to start. Singapore, Iceland, Taiwan among others have become economic success stories in the last few decades and havn't required being part of a union such as the EU to do so.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

43 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I agree with some of what you say.  I disagree with this bit: "At root, Brexit in anything other than single market form is simply unpopular"

 

The single market is the cornerstone of the EU.  You can't leave the EU and stay in the SM. Most people understand this now.

If you mean the public don't want to leave without a free trade agreement with the EU, you may have a point. And actually a FTA is looking more likely now.

 

 

 

Free Trade Agreement is not the same as Free Trade Deal.  The crucial difference is the single market.  The Government is to be held to account imo, because Leavers promised the moon on a stick.

 

What people understand now vs what they were sold at the vote is obviously the key issue.

 

I agree that an FTA is looking increasingly likely, but is not what the majority of people want, and particularly not in Scotland and N. Ireland. It's my belief that could have severe implications for the future of the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

 

While I'm at it... another one worth a watch, in my opinion. Funny how relavent it is now, dating as it does, from 2014, I believe. Some interesting and salient points raised and discussed, the one the clip ends on, to my mind, being equally or perhaps even the most pertinent. ???? 

Edited October 8, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

SHEER LITTLE ENGLANDER MADNESS. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live

 

Majority of Tory voters in England would be happy to see UK break up as price of Brexit, survey suggests

 

According to research by the Centre on Constitutional Change, which is based at Edinburgh University, Brexit is “dislodging long-held red lines about the [UK] union”. It says a majority of Conservative voters in England would prefer to press ahead with Brexit even if it led to the UK breaking up.

Here is an extract from the news release it has sent out.

Clear majorities of English Conservatives would support Scottish independence or the collapse of the NI peace process as the price of Brexit

 

87% of (overwhelmingly unionist) leave voters in Northern Ireland see the collapse of the peace process as an acceptable price for Brexit ...

Nearly half (49%) of English Conservative voters do not think Scottish MPs should sit in the UK cabinet and, in worse news for David Mundell [the Scottish secretary] as the SNP gathers in Glasgow, 24% of Scottish Conservative voters agree with them

Who'd have thought it? Labour being the party for Great Britain. Tories caring for nothing more than the 'holy grail' of Brexit.

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by mommysboy

[melvinmelvin]

 

??????????

 

appears pretty natural to me, the opposite would have been weird

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

While I'm at it... another one worth a watch, in my opinion. Funny how relavent it is now, dating as it does, from 2014, I believe. Some interesting and salient points raised and discussed, the one the clip ends on, to my mind, being equally or perhaps even the most pertinent. ???? 

I agree fully that EU is the force, which allows UK's separate entities to become independent. No the way the purists see it, but as part of EU and as one of EU's member states. That would allow these countries to interact with EU directly and not be vassal states of England. 

 

There is one more solution to Brexit. If England should leave the UK, while Northern Ireland, Scotland and possibly Wales would stay in UK, then England could go on it's separate way and UK could withdraw the A50 and continue stay within EU. Wouldn't that be something.

 

(Reducing brexiters one stroke at a time ????

 

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

46 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I agree fully that EU is the force, which allows UK's separate entities to become independent. No the way the purists see it, but as part of EU and as one of EU's member states. That would allow these countries to interact with EU directly and not be vassal states of England. 

 

There is one more solution to Brexit. If England should leave the UK, while Northern Ireland, Scotland and possibly Wales would stay in UK, then England could go on it's separate way and UK could withdraw the A50 and continue stay within EU. Wouldn't that be something.

 

(Reducing brexiters one stroke at a time ????

 

 

 

That would indeed be quite 'something'. But I doubt it will happen.

 

Vassal states of England huh!? The subsidies that go to the other nations of the UK, paid for by English public, are pretty numerous and valuable. Devolution within N.I. and Scotland has also existed in a meaningful way for many years now, so 'vassal states' is both inaccurate and insulting to the Irish and Scots, two proud peoples.

 

Like your friend Mr.O'Sullivan, you seem to be forgetting the fact that we did offer the Jocks a free referendum. Vassal state allowances? They had it, and they chose to remain part of the United Kingdom. The same could, potentially happen with N.Ireland, although again, I don't see it happening at the moment. If it comes to that, I'm not convinced they would choose to leave the union either.

 

Just as Peter Hitchens points out in the above video, very correctly, it is strange to note that we English who voted to leave the EU are constantly deemed 'little Englanders' at every turn, it's very puzzling. As is discussed in the above excerpt, we are the people who have had our national identity eroded and the celebration of that identity scoffed at most within the UK. To the point where it is considered totally illegitimate and even racist, by many. Why is that?

 

No, it seems that it is the other nation states of the UK that hold the desire to secede from the union and purse their own unilateral 'nationalist destiny', away from the UK (or perhaps just England?) far more vigorously of late. Yet you never hear the term little Scotlander flung around do you? No, their simply pursuing their right to independence, haha! Hypocrisy much?

 

I, for one, as an Englishman who wants to leave the EU, really don't want to see the disbandment of a union that has worked well for centuries, as the cost for doing so.

It would be a great shame and in the case of N.Ireland could even become a dangerous and bloody affair. I, and I'm sure many others have no desire to see that happen.

 

As you say, and as is mentioned in this discussion by both Bragg and Hitchens, the EU has enabled practicable independence from the UK to the RoI by way of joining the Eurozone and severing its currency union with the UK, so it could do the same for other member states of the UK should they so wish this would mean. The absurdity of it that would totally undermine any decision to secede, is that in reality, if they did so, they would simply be swapping one federation for another. One in which they'd have immeasurably less say and less political influence as members of than if they were to remain part of the UK, instead of becoming miniature 'provinces of the EU'.

 

'The EU won't tolerate other federations on it's turf, that's why it is opposed to the UK and even more so now for leaving and attempting to regain sovereignty of itself'

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[billd766]

From the BBC News website this morning.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45780889

 

Britain would be welcomed into the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal with "open arms" after it leaves the EU, Japan's prime minister has said.

While the UK would lose its role as a gateway to Europe after Brexit, it would retain its "global strength", Shinzo Abe told the Financial Times.

He also urged the UK and EU to use "wisdom" to avoid a no-deal scenario.

The TPP is a trade agreement between 11 countries, including Japan, Canada, Australia and Malaysia.

 

One door closes and another door opens.

[whatsupdoc]

36 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

'The EU won't tolerate other federations on it's turf, that's why it is opposed to the UK and even more so now for leaving and attempting to regain sovereignty of itself'

 

5555555, what a nonsense. Stop blaming the EU and just leave. Good riddance (only feel very sorry for all those who didn't vote for Brexit and still have to suffer the consequences).

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

5555555, what a nonsense. Stop blaming the EU and just leave. Good riddance (only feel very sorry for all those who didn't vote for Brexit and still have to suffer the consequences).

'The EU won't tolerate other federations on it's turf, that's why it is opposed to the UK and even more so now for leaving and attempting to regain sovereignty of itself'

 

Not my words, hence the ' ' marks...they are however ones I would firmly agree with. 

 

'Good riddance' - some of that warm, magnanimous EU spirit on display once again. ????????

Don't worry though, those of us who voted to leave look forward to doing so. You shan't have to suffer us 'bigoted nostalgists' for too much longer.????

It's just a shame it has been and will continue to be such a mess. That's what happens when the government tasked with severing the UKs ties with the EU is comprised of a majority that would really rather remain part of it.

 

It's quite the farce, and one reason I would second Hitchens's point about the benefits of an actually Eurosceptic party being voted in to power at a GE with a public mandate to Leave - being the preferred and sensible way of doing things. That isn't what happened however, so things must progress as they are and the best must be made of bad situation and compromised position.

 

Enjoy what remaining time the EU has left as an entity and though you may care less about the UK's future, I only hope the inevitable 'consequences' of the EU's continued policies and eventual demise don't irrevocably change Europe for the worse. Adios muchachos.

Edited October 9, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[whatsupdoc]

8 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Enjoy what remaining time the EU has left as an entity and though you may care less about the UK's future, I only hope the inevitable 'consequences' of the EU's continued policies and eventual demise don't irrevocably change Europe for the worse. Adios muchachos.

Nothing lasts forever but I do not share your pessimistic view about the EU. It certainly isn't perfect but in my opinion the EU is absolutely necessary to counterbalance the influence of the USA, Russia and China. The individual countries are all too small for that (yes, that includes the UK).

And if members of the EU are not happy with it they should try to achieve change from within or leave. Members that are constantly complaining about and blaming the EU without trying to solve the issues are not constructive and I am happy if they leave the union.

I believe those countries would quickly realize the consequences of leaving the benefits of the EU behind. Brexit might well drive the UK into the arms of the USA and I do not think that that will improve the quality of life for most of the UK population. But hey, the UK voted for Brexit, just live with the consequences. Your own choice, not the fault of the EU (who clearly expressed they wanted the UK to stay).

[adammike]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

That would indeed be quite 'something'. But I doubt it will happen.

 

Vassal states of England huh!? The subsidies that go to the other nations of the UK, paid for by English public, are pretty numerous and valuable. Devolution within N.I. and Scotland has also existed in a meaningful way for many years now, so 'vassal states' is both inaccurate and insulting to the Irish and Scots, two proud peoples.

 

Like your friend Mr.O'Sullivan, you seem to be forgetting the fact that we did offer the Jocks a free referendum. Vassal state allowances? They had it, and they chose to remain part of the United Kingdom. The same could, potentially happen with N.Ireland, although again, I don't see it happening at the moment. If it comes to that, I'm not convinced they would choose to leave the union either.

 

Just as Peter Hitchens points out in the above video, very correctly, it is strange to note that we English who voted to leave the EU are constantly deemed 'little Englanders' at every turn, it's very puzzling. As is discussed in the above excerpt, we are the people who have had our national identity eroded and the celebration of that identity scoffed at most within the UK. To the point where it is considered totally illegitimate and even racist, by many. Why is that?

 

No, it seems that it is the other nation states of the UK that hold the desire to secede from the union and purse their own unilateral 'nationalist destiny', away from the UK (or perhaps just England?) far more vigorously of late. Yet you never hear the term little Scotlander flung around do you? No, their simply pursuing their right to independence, haha! Hypocrisy much?

 

I, for one, as an Englishman who wants to leave the EU, really don't want to see the disbandment of a union that has worked well for centuries, as the cost for doing so.

It would be a great shame and in the case of N.Ireland could even become a dangerous and bloody affair. I, and I'm sure many others have no desire to see that happen.

 

As you say, and as is mentioned in this discussion by both Bragg and Hitchens, the EU has enabled practicable independence from the UK to the RoI by way of joining the Eurozone and severing its currency union with the UK, so it could do the same for other member states of the UK should they so wish this would mean. The absurdity of it that would totally undermine any decision to secede, is that in reality, if they did so, they would simply be swapping one federation for another. One in which they'd have immeasurably less say and less political influence as members of than if they were to remain part of the UK, instead of becoming miniature 'provinces of the EU'.

 

'The EU won't tolerate other federations on it's turf, that's why it is opposed to the UK and even more so now for leaving and attempting to regain sovereignty of itself'

 

"We did offer the jocks a free referendum" That's the most little Englander line in this and the other brexit threads I've read so far.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

46 minutes ago, adammike said:

"We did offer the jocks a free referendum" That's the most little Englander line in this and the other brexit threads I've read so far.

Haha, woah, that's quite a statement to make.

 

What in particular is 'little Englander' about my statement? It is most importantly, factual. When I use the word 'we' I simply meant the United Kingdom via our central parliament in Westminster. Devo-max propositions are yet to come to fruition and full autonomous independence was voted against. Your reaction to it, rather than the content of my statement, speaks volumes.

 

What exactly do you take issue with? The use of the term 'Jocks'? ???? I do hope not. That would be beyond precious! Not least considering the language used to describe us 'English bastards' on a regular basis by every other nation within the union. I and I think most other English people, could care less to be honest, as it's recognised by most that this is banter - and usually said in good humour, just as my (non offensive) comment above was. You also, I notice, chose to ignore the rest of my comment where I espoused my view that I don't want to see Brexit be the instigation of a break up of the union with our Scottish and Irish cousins. That would be something I'd hate to see happen. Spinning of words comes in to play once again, as per usual.

 

Other than possibly misconstruing the playful use of an oft-used moniker I totally fail to see your point, probably because you don't have one. 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

Nothing lasts forever but I do not share your pessimistic view about the EU. It certainly isn't perfect but in my opinion the EU is absolutely necessary to counterbalance the influence of the USA, Russia and China. The individual countries are all too small for that (yes, that includes the UK).

And if members of the EU are not happy with it they should try to achieve change from within or leave. Members that are constantly complaining about and blaming the EU without trying to solve the issues are not constructive and I am happy if they leave the union.

I believe those countries would quickly realize the consequences of leaving the benefits of the EU behind. Brexit might well drive the UK into the arms of the USA and I do not think that that will improve the quality of life for most of the UK population. But hey, the UK voted for Brexit, just live with the consequences. Your own choice, not the fault of the EU (who clearly expressed they wanted the UK to stay).

'It certainly isn't perfect but in my opinion the EU is absolutely necessary to counterbalance the influence of the USA, Russia and China. The individual countries are all too small for that (yes, that includes the UK).'

 

I take your point, and it is one that I kind of, nearly, half agree with. In an age of superpowers the UK will undoubtedly play a more minor role as our influence and global hegemony has long since declined. This was recognised by Churchill toward the end of WWII, Yalta, the venue of the conception of the UN, served as a harbinger of the modern world we exist in now. Russia and the USA taking the primary roles on the world stage, with the UK playing deputy to the US's sheriff. This point was almost personified by the body language of the heads of state at that conference. Now we have the likes of China and India as major players too of course. This rise to power, of nations such as India in particular, is a topic I could talk about at length. But I am verbose enough as it is, so maybe another time. 

 

There are however plenty of far smaller and less influential nations that fair perfectly well outside of political, fiscal, currency, trade or customs unions. I have mentioned a few examples a few times, already. So this evidence is one source of my disbelief in your statement to the contrary. 

 

If other greatly smaller and less influential nations can make their way in the world unilaterally, the UK definitely has a fair chance of doing so too, with some proper planning and leadership.

Any other arguments for staying in the EU seem to me, and a great many others, to be vastly outweighed by the manifest negatives of doing so. It will continue to disintegrate, this process has already started, so my opinion is totally opposed to yours on that one. I and others on this thread have explained our reasons for believing this many times already.

 

The other point I would contest is that we should 'try to achieve change from within', seems patently clear that the EU is not reformable. A sentiment echoed by many greater minds than mine,

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

From the BBC News website this morning.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45780889

 

Britain would be welcomed into the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal with "open arms" after it leaves the EU, Japan's prime minister has said.

While the UK would lose its role as a gateway to Europe after Brexit, it would retain its "global strength", Shinzo Abe told the Financial Times.

He also urged the UK and EU to use "wisdom" to avoid a no-deal scenario.

The TPP is a trade agreement between 11 countries, including Japan, Canada, Australia and Malaysia.

 

One door closes and another door opens.

Not much of a door really.

[mommysboy]

Yup, guess the easiest solution would be for England to devolve from the rest of the UK. That would give Tory England what it wants. Who knows once the Tories have been massacred at the polls we'd probably rejoin as a junior partner of course.

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Yup, guess the easiest solution would be for England to devolve from the rest of the UK. That would give Tory England what it wants. Who knows once the Tories have been massacred at the polls we'd probably rejoin as a junior partner of course.

You do know most Tory MPs are pro-Remain, don't you? And you do realise the leader of the Labour Party is a lifelong Eurosceptic? Corbyn is just hedging his bets at the moment, praying for a general election. He loathes the EU project!

 

Brexit really isn't along party lines.

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by CG1 Blue

[7by7]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Yup, guess the easiest solution would be for England to devolve from the rest of the UK. That would give Tory England what it wants. Who knows once the Tories have been massacred at the polls we'd probably rejoin as a junior partner of course.

What about Wales?

 

Wales voted Remain as well; by a, slightly, larger margin than England.

[vinny41]

Wales voted to leave

854,572 (52.5%) voters in Wales chose to leave the EU, compared with 772,347 (47.5%) supporting Remain.

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

> The cattle "north of the border" are not necessarily destined for Ireland, and vice versa, so checks aren't and will not be necessary for those cattle. There are cattle checks currently, it has been proposed that where necessary existing checking points continue to be used. The "single market" is not quite as single as some people may believe: different EU countries currently maintain different veterinary regulations with regards to livestock. 

 

> The issue of people crossing the Irish border post-Brexit is not a Brexit issue, because nothing will change post-Brexit: Ireland will remain in the Common Travel Area with the the UK, and outside of Schengen. It is not a Brexit issue. I've said this three times now:  Irish citizens will continue to have the right to move freely between Ireland and the UK just as they currently do, and vice versa for UK citizens.

You continually try and circumvent the point in question, current arrangements exist under regulatory alignment.

We can only hope that same regulatory alignment will continue to exist.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Good to see the Japanese still recognise the UK as a global player. Pity these positive Brexit stories are rather hidden on the BBC website, whereas they give any negative story front page billing!

 

Brexit: Japan 'would welcome' UK to TPP says Abe

While the UK would lose its role as a gateway to Europe after Brexit, it would retain its "global strength", Shinzo Abe told the FT.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45780889

The "welcome" is conditional and it should also be borne in mind that the EU has already applied to the WTO to use the EU tariff schedule.

 

The UK would only be able to join the bloc if it left the EU customs union and was able to set its own tariffs. In the interview Mr Abe also expressed concern about a no-deal scenario.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45780889

[Grouse]

While I have been away I have been pondering

 

It seems to me that Brexit is a Nash equilibrium issue

 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/03/29/article-50-the-eu-will-drive-a-hard-bargain/

 

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2948140

 

I assume Remainers will understand Nash equilibrium

 

Brexiters, did you see "A Beautiful Mind?" Yes, It was rubbish. explained nothing really

 

Try "The prisoners' dilemma"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

 

Of course the ideal result for EVERYONE is to remain. BUT we have chosen this route so I hope the negotiators understand Nash's work. The EU certainly appear to.

 

Nash essentially saved the world during the Cold War - read up on Game Theory....

 

Norwegian model anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Grouse
prisoners dilemma

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

From the BBC News website this morning.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45780889

 

Britain would be welcomed into the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal with "open arms" after it leaves the EU, Japan's prime minister has said.

While the UK would lose its role as a gateway to Europe after Brexit, it would retain its "global strength", Shinzo Abe told the Financial Times.

He also urged the UK and EU to use "wisdom" to avoid a no-deal scenario.

The TPP is a trade agreement between 11 countries, including Japan, Canada, Australia and Malaysia.

 

One door closes and another door opens.

Is it really an open door Bill?

The door is already there but a very small percentage of UK business is prepared to turn the handle.

A report some time ago indicated that the main barriers to trade were language,finance and distance.

Bottom line is that the majority of UK companies would rather do business on their doorstep than the other side of the world.

PS My wife's niece is at uni in China and she brought me some Mackies potato crisps that she had bought cheaper than available in the UK. Makes you wonder if domestic customers are paying a premium to support foreign exports.

Edited October 9, 2018 by sandyf

[aright]

34 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Norwegian model anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is Helga still available?

[Grouse]

56 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The "welcome" is conditional and it should also be borne in mind that the EU has already applied to the WTO to use the EU tariff schedule.

 

The UK would only be able to join the bloc if it left the EU customs union and was able to set its own tariffs. In the interview Mr Abe also expressed concern about a no-deal scenario.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45780889

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/10/08/tpp-trans-pacific-partnership-could-mean-uk-joins/

 

Great idea!

 

Tariff free shoes from Vietnam will be great for Leicester's Brexiters

 

BTW, the EU has already done a deal with Japan

 

Great bit of Abenomics that. Move all the Japanese car plants to mainland Europe and arrange cheap shoes for the UK ????

Edited October 9, 2018 by Grouse

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

You continually try and circumvent the point in question, current arrangements exist under regulatory alignment.

We can only hope that same regulatory alignment will continue to exist.

The original point in question as posted by you had nothing to do with regulatory alignment as far as I can remember. Even if it had, your comments about cattle are incorrect: there are currently different veterinary rules between the UK and Ireland (as I've already mentioned) ; and it has been proposed that current checking points continue to be used, albeit at a higher volume (as I've already mentioned).

 

This is one example of many where there are different national regulations within the "single market" (as I've already mentioned).

 

As for people crossing the border, which was the main part of your original post, nothing is going to change: Ireland and the UK have had a Common Travel Area since 1922, and Ireland is in Schengen. These provisions will continue after Brexit (as I've already mentioned three times). Irish and British citizens will continue to have freedom to travel throughout the CTA. 

 

The Irish border is one of the key discussion points over the next 10 days, so I would hang fire until we see the next set of proposals. However, the points I have highighted above will not change.

[My Thai Life]

23 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I understand your frustration. Some people on TVF (and of course the wider world) simply don't want to listen to fact and reason. It must threaten both their perceived identity & personal world view too much to base opinions they hold about Brexit on fact rather than their own emotional reaction to it. 

 

That, in my opinion, is why we've seen such little informed, fact based debate coming from the remain camp and vastly more identity politics and slander.

I agree completely. When I joined this thread I was neutral to the debate, and actually neutral to the outcome of the referendum, as I was not entitled to vote, being a very long term ex-pat. My position was simply to accept the result of the vote, whichever way it went.

 

So I was pretty surprised to discover the extent of the abuse from the remain side, and the incessant trolling from international posters. The former I can understand as sour grapes, but the latter is just weird.

 

More surprising was that, with the exception of one or two remainers such as tebee, the remain side of the debate rarely puts forward any informed opinion; sarcasm, abuse and emotionalism seem to be their main contribution.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by My Thai Life