UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I clutching at democracy.

 

The problem we have is that a majority of our politicians do not have the fortitude to act according to what they really believe. A people's vote now would mean that they need not fear going against there constituents. They could chuck Brexit which is clearly the best decision for parliament to take

Clearly! Oh wait...where's me specs?

[nauseus]

56 minutes ago, Grouse said:

A second opinion from the people after two years of enlightenment will allow weak MPs to do what they believe is the correct thing already - bury Brexit

Something like survival of the unfittest?

[nauseus]

57 minutes ago, Grouse said:

They moved it to Bradford

Harrow, actually Old Boy.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It was only regarded as a farce by remoaners after the result was known! In fact they were quite enjoying it it up to that point! That is the real pantomime.

To be fair, uk and eu politicians have turned it into a farce.

 

UK MPs are desperately try to 'leave in name only' (IMO), without losing their seats at the next election - and of course, the eu is worried that other countries may follow suit.

 

To look on the bright side, the eu knows that other countries are also unhappy with various aspects of the eu - and making it clear via elections.  So perhaps they may finally think about genuine change ????.

 

But I'm not holding my breath on that one....

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think May is on the ropes now

 

She was trying to protect the UK from as much damage as possible due to Brexit but it hasn't worked

 

If there is an election, she will definitely lose. What would the Cons put in their Manifesto about Brexit? It could result in a break up of the Tory Party

 

Best thing she can do is call for a peoples vote. If Labour speaks to DUP they could force it.

 

I believe that this would result in a majority in favour of remaining. Super majority is not required. These referendums are opinion polls only.

 

That would allow MPs to vote as they surely believe and bury brexit

 

She can then fall on her sword and the Tory party would survive in tact

 

I think a deal on restricting free movement IS possible for the whole of the EU

 

I think UK can negotiate to retain the rebates and opt outs.

 

If they can't, Ill do it.

 

 

"I believe that this would result in a majority in favour of remaining."

 

Why on earth would you believe that - bearing in mind the LibDems (or whatever they are called nowadays) were the only party to support this POV at the last GE - and lost, badly?

 

"Super majority is not required."

 

A bit odd as (IIRC) one of your gripes was that a super majority should have been required for the first referendum?

[dick dasterdly]

Duplicated post

Edited October 15, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[GeorgeCross]

if there is no deal then i as a brexiteer have gotten what i voted for all this soft brexit stuff is a betrayal of our vote.

 

vote leave means leave. 

 

then it's time to rebuild a better nation with our own trade deals of which the EU is welcome to come to the table OR NOT if they come with their current sh*tty attitude.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I clutching at democracy.

 

The problem we have is that a majority of our politicians do not have the fortitude to act according to what they really believe. A people's vote now would mean that they need not fear going against there constituents. They could chuck Brexit which is clearly the best decision for parliament to take

The problem we have is that a majority of our politicians do not have the fortitude to act according to what they really believe.

 

I agree, apart from the "believe" part.  Politicians have no desire to leave as it suits them financially for various reasons.

 

And please - let's not get back on the 'politicians are more knowledgable' merry-go-round....

 

Edit - You tried it recently with the 'referendums are only advisory' route, and I'm sure that most of us who have been following these threads for a LONG time (and like myself, you have been a regular on these threads since at least the day before the referendum) - we are sick and tired of going over the same ground time and time again....

 

So I've no idea why you keep dragging up the same old, tired arguments that have been frequently discussed previously ☹️.

Edited October 15, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"However, the referendum was not binding, regardless of any verbal assurances. I can post the original act if like?"

 

And yet the govt. told the electorate that they would 'enact the referendum result' (or words to that effect).

 

I'm sure another poster can post the relevant part of the govt.'s leaflet - send to every household - if you like?

 

Seems a bit pointless though, as we've had this discussion on the forum many times already....

 

 

Apart from the fact that the referendum was not legally binding you have to remember that no government can dictate what a future government must do. DC gave the assurance in the belief that he would still be in charge after the referendum, a bit presumptious wouldn't you say.

TM is solely responsible for the action that has been taken and as I have said before she allows criminals the benefit of beyond reasonable doubt, but it would appear that benefit is not extended to the country as a whole.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, sandyf said:

Apart from the fact that the referendum was not legally binding you have to remember that no government can dictate what a future government must do. DC gave the assurance in the belief that he would still be in charge after the referendum, a bit presumptious wouldn't you say.

TM is solely responsible for the action that has been taken and as I have said before she allows criminals the benefit of beyond reasonable doubt, but it would appear that benefit is not extended to the country as a whole.

There was no reason for cameron not to believe that he would still be in charge after the referendum - as politicians are so out of touch with the electorate, that they didn't even consider that 'leave' vote might win the referendum!

 

Hence the lack of any plan in the event of a leave vote - and no preparation even after the vote as the govt. preferred to rely on being able to get away with a 'leave in name only' agreement....  (IMO)

 

And at the moment, it appears they are still pursuing this path - but have 'cottoned on' that the electorate don't agree, and may punish them at the next GE.

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Can you identify what rules allowed me to vote for Martin Selmayr and the rule which allows me to get rid of him. because I can't find them. You obviously know them since you feel the Union and the Commission were democratically elected.

Do the voting patterns of the last 2 years show that the electorate are satisfied with the undemocratic response to their needs? . 

Your elected govt took place in the process.

 

Just as in a general election you vote for a party, you do not vote ministers, prime minister, speaker of the house of commons, under secretaries...

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Had he been a British MP he would have been out on his ear but he is still in post.

So tell me how do I get rid f him?

Let the procedures take their place.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Bluespunk

[sandyf]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

There was no reason for cameron not to believe that he would still be in charge after the referendum - as politicians are so out of touch with the electorate, that they didn't even consider that 'leave' vote might win the referendum!

 

Hence the lack of any plan in the event of a leave vote - and no preparation even after the vote as the govt. preferred to rely on being able to get away with a 'leave in name only' agreement....  (IMO)

 

And at the moment, it appears they are still pursuing this path - but have 'cottoned on' that the electorate don't agree, and may punish them at the next GE.

Wouldn't disagree with most of that, apart from the last bit. At this point in time I don't think that the electorate comes into it, those that may punish are sat at the same table.

[bomber]

2 hours ago, Esso49 said:

She has been on the ropes for months,  Just trying all manner of things to fix up directorships once she resigns from the Tory party, hopefully soon, just like her buddy  David Cameron did.

and who would possibly want the job? BJ is clown and more interested in shagging than sorting out the mess he helped create,a blind man on a galloping horse can see whats coming,JC and his comrades,and ya think brexit is going to be bad wait till he destroys whats left of the UK

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, bomber said:

and who would possibly want the job? BJ is clown and more interested in shagging than sorting out the mess he helped create,a blind man on a galloping horse can see whats coming,JC and his comrades,and ya think brexit is going to be bad wait till he destroys whats left of the UK

David Davis has been spoken to about taking over as interim PM if TM doesn't change tack, but he said he won't do it on a temporary basis.

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

A second opinion from the people after two years of enlightenment will allow weak MPs to do what they believe is the correct thing already - bury Brexit

Even if the people and politicians were to jump to your bidding, which, let's face it, is pie in the sky, would it all be signed and sealed before March 29 2019? More pie in the sky.

 

British MPs voting down a deal won't klll Brexit, it will just provide a no deal Brexit.

[brewsterbudgen]

But a soft Brexit is not Brexit. David Cameron said before the the referendum that it meant leaving the single market, everybody was well informed no matter what remainers believe was said.

Really? Care to provide a link showing Cameron saying that?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[vogie]

1 minute ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Really? Care to provide a link showing Cameron saying that?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I’ll pull UK out of the single market after Brexit’

cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of-the-single-market-after-brexit-eu-referendum-vote-june-23-consequences-news/

 

[brewsterbudgen]

I’ll pull UK out of the single market after Brexit’

cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of-the-single-market-after-brexit-eu-referendum-vote-june-23-consequences-news/
 

Thanks.

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[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Really? Care to provide a link showing Cameron saying that?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

"If Leave, you're quitting the Single Market" v1 Cameron/Osborne

 

[brewsterbudgen]

I’ll pull UK out of the single market after Brexit’

cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of-the-single-market-after-brexit-eu-referendum-vote-june-23-consequences-news/
 

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

It was envisioned by the majority that we would leave. So leave.

Tell your party to do it then!

[whatsupdoc]

For some more surrealism in the Brexit negotiations:

 

On Twitter, Katya Adler (BBC) reported:

 

Anyone wondering why - after so many months of #Brexit talks - the Irish border issue hasn’t yet been settled should consider that - according EU sources - the Irish backstop was not discussed in negotiations by U.K. request between Dec and the end of the Tory party conference

5:09 PM - Oct 15, 2018

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

"If Leave, you're quitting the Single Market" v1 Cameron/Osborne

 

But the point is the worry of this was quickly countered with a pledge by leavers of a trade deal of boundlesss splendour.

[vinny41]

14 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

For some more surrealism in the Brexit negotiations:

 

On Twitter, Katya Adler (BBC) reported:

 

Anyone wondering why - after so many months of #Brexit talks - the Irish border issue hasn’t yet been settled should consider that - according EU sources - the Irish backstop was not discussed in negotiations by U.K. request between Dec and the end of the Tory party conference

5:09 PM - Oct 15, 2018

she has added a correction since that statement

EU CORRECTIONS coming in on Irish backstop discussions: the issue was debated but not advanced in #Brexit negotiations between Dec and end of Tory Party Conference

 

 

[bomber]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

David Davis has been spoken to about taking over as interim PM if TM doesn't change tack, but he said he won't do it on a temporary basis.

nobody wants it the tories know they have little chance of winning the next GE,I give you JC 

[melvinmelvin]

quite interesting really,

 

now - when a possible tentative deal might surface

NI border one of the major issues it seems

 

UK/Tory/PM has given the steering wheel - hand brake - juice pedal to Ms Dup

 

what a farce

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, aright said:

Because of the fuss of the margin of the first referendum I am agreeable as many Remainers have said after the last vote, it is fair that it must be at least an equal or greater than a 65%:35% split whatever the outcome.

No, the EU referendum was advisory and not binding so a super majority is not required

 

If a second referendum delivers a majority in favour of remaining then that will enable our weak MPs to can Brexit. For good.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

To be fair, uk and eu politicians have turned it into a farce.

 

UK MPs are desperately try to 'leave in name only' (IMO), without losing their seats at the next election - and of course, the eu is worried that other countries may follow suit.

 

To look on the bright side, the eu knows that other countries are also unhappy with various aspects of the eu - and making it clear via elections.  So perhaps they may finally think about genuine change ????.

 

But I'm not holding my breath on that one....

I agree your view of the politicians

 

I also think the EU will now allow restrictions on free movement of people.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"I believe that this would result in a majority in favour of remaining."

 

Why on earth would you believe that - bearing in mind the LibDems (or whatever they are called nowadays) were the only party to support this POV at the last GE - and lost, badly?

 

"Super majority is not required."

 

A bit odd as (IIRC) one of your gripes was that a super majority should have been required for the first referendum?

Good points.

 

I think the Lib Dems failed to gain traction because our ridiculous FPTP system means that unless the two main parties are tied, then a Lib Dem vote is wasted.

 

I do believe that there is a substantial majority of people who on balance would prefer to remain

 

I have changed my position on referendums after research. The referendum was indeed advisory and not legally binding. A super majority is therefore unnecessary as parliament can ignore the result