UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

I, for one, think Brexit has been a futile, smoke filled exercise to ignore the pressing needs of the day that don't quite fit Tory dogma: failing economic model, the dangers of of over production/consumption, gross wage inequality, and of course, global warming.

Well we are all entitled to our opinions. There was no doubt an "up you" element to the vote, but Brexit has been a very long time coming, it's not a flash in the pan.

 

As for the dangers of over production and global warming, well you, me and the rest of the EU populace are paying to support the EU's over production and global warming via the CAP at 40% of the EU budget, and then dumping the over production onto Africa, thereby putting African farmers out of business and fuelling the migration crisis. Mind you, the big EU landowners are lining their pockets out of our subsidies, so at least someone's gaining.

Edited October 19, 2018 by My Thai Life

[billd766]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

but still without a name so doesn't matter what he/she says pure bull 

 

Grouse can say many things, but without backing it up it means nothing.

 

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Because remainers tend to be better informed, better educated, doing better and better looking.

 

What a crock of crap. Even more so if you actually believe it.

[Grouse]

27 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Grouse can say many things, but without backing it up it means nothing.

 

 

What a crock of crap. Even more so if you actually believe it.

Of course it's nonsense

 

Wake up! Smell the coffee!

 

It was a humorous comment, un bon mot, a laugh!

 

It's Friday, have beer have a laugh

 

Why is it that low level munchkins have a sense of humour bypass? Remainers at least have Junker as a figurehead!

 

Cheers!

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

When a deal does go through Tories are going to be hated- I wouldn't be surprised if they're not knocked out of politics for a couple of decades or more, just as Labour in the 70's.  Yet, I don't see Labour being so electable because of its very left policies and rather ambiguous stance on Brexit. I wonder if we'll see this in UK as Green issues will dominate in the future:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/19/adults-in-the-room-greens-surge-across-europe-as-centre-left-flounders.

 

I, for one, think Brexit has been a futile, smoke filled exercise to ignore the pressing needs of the day that don't quite fit Tory dogma: failing economic model, the dangers of of over production/consumption, gross wage inequality, and of course, global warming.

If the EU was so concerned about the environment then it would cancel their insane monthly parliament move from Brussels to Strasbourg and back. It would reduce their/our costs and their carbon footprint considerably! Vive La France!

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

Edited October 19, 2018 by nauseus

[brucec64]

I am not sure we are anymore enlightened on either the risks of staying in or leaving it appears the establishment didn't like the vote so have tried to frustrate the process of leaving. The government before voting day issued a booklet of properganda to aid the remain cause (12 million pounds of pro remain dribble) it clearly stated we would have what remainers term as hard Brexit, but is infact simply Brexit. The Government clearly told us the risks and that we would leave all institutions of the EU, so we voted for a hard Brexit in fact. Now just because the EU wouldn't compromise on their principals (I don't blame them) we should simply leave on WTO rules sign our own trade deals save what will be 15 billion pounds in contributions and receive due to EU imports a profit of 7-9 billion pounds on the tariffs the EU would have to pay us. Therefore we would profit by 20-25 billion a year. When we leave we also avoid the liabilities the EU builds up on our behalf such as the suposed 28 billion divorce bill. And the fact the EU budget is now set vastly above its income.
 
As to what I think your point is, the Brexit referendum was the largest democratic exercise in British history, if we had anouther referendum, (I don't mind if we do as think it will be very close again either way as don't see much option change in the real world) supose remain won, would we then in two years more time have anouther so we go best of three? MPs pretty much all voted for the referendum, and subsequenly for article 50 and there is likely to be serious unrest if we don't leave.
 
Additionally, the EU are funding (and we're before Brexit) in Slovakia over 125 million euros to build a Jaguar factory, that's not very fair to encourage a British manufacturer to shift production from the UK. They did the same with Ford who moved transit production from the UK to a EU funded factory in Turkey.
 
I do respect your remainers view, but there are serious risks in continuing with the EU project, which doesn't get a fair hearing.

Your math is flawed. You dont account for transfer payments back from the EU, nor do you account for tarriffs that UK companies will pay the EU. Both will net out the percieved gains. Its this type of misinformation that got you into this Brexit disaster in the first place.

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Guest]

The Brexiteers won. What are you going to do now?

 

The responsibility is on your hands now. 

[adammike]

5 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

The US government representative was talking to a UK government representative.

 

Barnier himself said a few weeks ago he would only talk to the UK government. Corbyn isn't, and won't be.

Corbyn is the leader of the opposition it's an official title and carries a ministers salary,he is always kept up speed on matters of national security etc.It may be an obligation for the EU to keep him up to date with negotiations.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, adammike said:

Corbyn is the leader of the opposition it's an official title and carries a ministers salary,he is always kept up speed on matters of national security etc.It may be an obligation for the EU to keep him up to date with negotiations.

After learning how abusive UK politics is towards to real living people, I start to think that Corbyn offers the only real solution for the people of UK. 

 

 

[tebee]

A long read - and far to many facts and figures for brexiters - but an interesting attempt to try and quantify what economic effect brexit will have 

 

Understanding the economic impact of Brexit

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/2018 IfG Brexit impact [final for web].pdf

[vinny41]

27 minutes ago, oilinki said:

After learning how abusive UK politics is towards to real living people, I start to think that Corbyn offers the only real solution for the people of UK. 

 

 

Jeremy Corbyn’s views on Brexit: a long held stance on Europe

 

Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn is both praised and criticised for one of his defining political features: sticking decade after decade to the same political views.

Some people see that as an attribute – sticking with your principles – and others as a flaw – being stuck in the past. Either way, it’s clearly a large part of his political personality.

It’s also the way to understanding his views on Brexit, as those too follow a long-run and consistent approach. He is, in short, a life-long Eurosceptic:

• Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.
• Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993. During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.
• Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.
• In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.
• Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).
• In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism, which helps members of the Euro in financial difficulties. (This vote is a good example of how Corbyn votes with hardcore Euro-sceptics. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of right-wing Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.)
• Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.
• In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.
• Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.
• The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two-year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.
• In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no later than 31 March 2017.
• Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.
• During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe.
• In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.

As the Labour Leave group wrote in April 2016:

Corbyn is a well known Eurosceptic, who voted against membership in 1975, voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, and voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.

Given his views he has made a number of strongly anti-EU comments over the years.

https://www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/

[vinny41]

The ‘Peoples’ Vote’ campaign have deleted a disturbing video where a parent pushes his five year old child to demand a second referendum. The poor kid can’t even remember what he’s been told to say. After a big backlash on twitter, the campaign sheepishly deleted the video. Guido has it saved for co-conspirators to see and cringe at. They professionally produced it with subtitles and an end screen, and called it a “MUST WATCH”…

 

https://order-order.com/2018/10/19/peoples-vote-delete-disturbing-must-watch-video-backlash/

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.

Well then, Jeremy should be perfect person to represent the Brexiters.

 

Combine the nationalism with a hint of high society of communism, Britain is well on the way to become either Singapore or Venezuela. 

 

Singapore is ruled by intellectuals who embrace foreign knowledge. Venezuela is ruled by lesser intellectual beings, who hate foreign influence.

 

Where England stands on this scale? I'd say it's more to the Venezuelan type. 

 

At the end of the day, the English will hate what they voted for and they will go against their own government. That's when the real suffering begins. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The ‘Peoples’ Vote’ campaign have deleted a disturbing video where a parent pushes his five year old child to demand a second referendum. The poor kid can’t even remember what he’s been told to say. After a big backlash on twitter, the campaign sheepishly deleted the video. Guido has it saved for co-conspirators to see and cringe at. They professionally produced it with subtitles and an end screen, and called it a “MUST WATCH”…

 

https://order-order.com/2018/10/19/peoples-vote-delete-disturbing-must-watch-video-backlash/

Are you trying to proof that everything you post here is from St Petersburg database and you no longer don't care to show it to everybody?

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Are you trying to proof that everything you post here is from St Petersburg database and you no longer don't care to show it to everybody?

Does anyone really care about your opinion I don't anyone from the UK that knows anything about politics will be well aware of order-order.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Staines

Looks like your fellow countymen are going to have to stump up more cash to remain in the EU house of fun

Finland warns EU it will not help fill the €15bn Brexit budget black hole

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/24/finland-warns-eu-will-not-help-fill-15bn-brexit-budget-black/

[tebee]

The Mistake Countries Repeatedly Make When Dealing With the EU

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/151733/mistake-countries-repeatedly-make-dealing-eu?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

 

The UK’s Brexit vote resembles that of Greece’s vote for Tsipras not only in terms of the political naiveté of the populist promises, but also in terms of the strategies pursued in the subsequent negotiations with the EU. Both the Conservative government and the Labour opposition in the UK seem to be repeating Greece’s mistakes. The result is unlikely to be any more successful.

Edited October 19, 2018 by tebee

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Finland warns EU it will not help fill the €15bn Brexit budget black hole

I think your database requires a bit substral and care. She doesn't seems to be well cared for nor up to date. 

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I have an even better connected authority who says that's not true.

Surprise,Surprise.

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

It's insulting comments against us visionary Brexit voters that brought about my comment.

"visionary Brexit voters",  nothing could be further from the truth, it is in fact lack of vision that has created the brexit damage.

A visionary outlook on the part of the EU has made sure they have put in place protections against the actions of a future UK government, after all why should they trust anyone with such lack of foresight.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

"visionary Brexit voters",  nothing could be further from the truth, it is in fact lack of vision that has created the brexit damage.

A visionary outlook on the part of the EU has made sure they have put in place protections against the actions of a future UK government, after all why should they trust anyone with such lack of foresight.

So visionary protectionism then?

[mommysboy]

16 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Well we are all entitled to our opinions. There was no doubt an "up you" element to the vote, but Brexit has been a very long time coming, it's not a flash in the pan.

 

As for the dangers of over production and global warming, well you, me and the rest of the EU populace are paying to support the EU's over production and global warming via the CAP at 40% of the EU budget, and then dumping the over production onto Africa, thereby putting African farmers out of business and fuelling the migration crisis. Mind you, the big EU landowners are lining their pockets out of our subsidies, so at least someone's gaining.

All economies need to change and pdq.  Unfortunately the Tory Government, more than anyone else in the EU, is based on 19th century dogma, fuelled by turbo charged capitalism- growth at all costs via consumer borrowing.  It keeps banging the same old drum.

 

The economic model that has been definitive in shaping most of our lives simply started failing 10 years ago, having had a good run for 30 years or so.  Rather than face facts, we chose to blame the EU. Will our problems go away- even lessen- I doubt that, in fact they will probably worsen.

[tebee]

Vote Again on Brexit !

 

Two years on, voters understand the full consequences of leaving. Give them another chance. 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-10-20/the-case-for-a-second-brexit-referendum

[dick dasterdly]

16 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Well we are all entitled to our opinions. There was no doubt an "up you" element to the vote, but Brexit has been a very long time coming, it's not a flash in the pan.

 

As for the dangers of over production and global warming, well you, me and the rest of the EU populace are paying to support the EU's over production and global warming via the CAP at 40% of the EU budget, and then dumping the over production onto Africa, thereby putting African farmers out of business and fuelling the migration crisis. Mind you, the big EU landowners are lining their pockets out of our subsidies, so at least someone's gaining.

 

15 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

All economies need to change and pdq.  Unfortunately the Tory Government, more than anyone else in the EU, is based on 19th century dogma, fuelled by turbo charged capitalism- growth at all costs via consumer borrowing.  It keeps banging the same old drum.

 

The economic model that has been definitive in shaping most of our lives simply started failing 10 years ago, having had a good run for 30 years or so.  Rather than face facts, we chose to blame the EU. Will our problems go away- even lessen- I doubt that, in fact they will probably worsen.

"All economies need to change and pdq.  Unfortunately the Tory Government, more than anyone else in the EU, is based on 19th century dogma, fuelled by turbo charged capitalism- growth at all costs via consumer borrowing.  It keeps banging the same old drum.

 

The economic model that has been definitive in shaping most of our lives simply started failing 10 years ago, having had a good run for 30 years or so."

 

I agree with this part of your post, but the eu has not helped and the last labour govt. pursued the same ideas as the tories....

 

The lunacy of the eu moving headquarters every few months has frequently been pointed out as a waste of taxpayers money - but of course the eu doesn't care about this 'minor detail'.....

 

Then we have the CAP (taking up 40% of the eu budget?), which as My Thai Life points out - is indefensible.

[dick dasterdly]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

Vote Again on Brexit !

 

Two years on, voters understand the full consequences of leaving. Give them another chance. 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-10-20/the-case-for-a-second-brexit-referendum

It's impossible to know what will happen after a genuine brexit - it's always either crystal ball gazing or fear mongering.

 

But I do agree that there should be another referendum on whether to accept the agreed deal - or reject the deal and leave immediately - as sadly, politicians can't be trusted.

Edited October 20, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[My Thai Life]

14 hours ago, tebee said:

A long read - and far to many facts and figures for brexiters - but an interesting attempt to try and quantify what economic effect brexit will have 

 

Understanding the economic impact of Brexit

As I've posted numerous times in response to one of the remainers who repeatedly demands economic forecasts (and seems to be unaware that there have been over 10), there is no consensus on how to perform the analysis, particularly on the assumptions that are fed into the models. This is common sense, you don't need to be an economist to understand that difficulty.

 

Consequently there is no consensus on the economic impact. From memory, the forecasts range from -10% impact on GDP to around +7% over 15 years.

 

One of my former employers, a world leading international management consultancy, comes in somewhere in the middle of that range. Their forecast is included in the document you linked to.

 

From memory, one of the quality press reported a week or so ago that the UK government's most recent forecast amounts to economic growth of 27% over 13 years, against a 30% baseline growth. I haven't had time to check their calculations, but it hardly seems catastrophic.

 

Another problem with this kind of forecasting is the EU's economic growth over the same period. If the EU has lower growth than the UK, then the comparative benefit of Brexit is higher, regardless of the UK's absolute growth. The outlook for the EU is not rosy, with around 60% youth unemployment in some countries (again from memory, of a graphic I posted a week or so ago), and no sign of improvement on the horizon. The Euro is heading for a potentially extremely difficult time (I posted on this a couple of times in the last 2 weeks or so). And of course the effect of the UK leaving the EU will also have a negative effect on the EU's economy.

 

Anyway, thanks for the link. The government's forecasting model has attracted criticism, but it's good to know that they are doing something, even if it is politically biased in May’s direction.

 

PS The debate is not just about economics. National self-determination is not something that's easy to put a price on.

Edited October 20, 2018 by My Thai Life

[mommysboy]

Significantly high turnout. I'm surprised. I wonder if it'll turn nasty?

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/peoples-vote-march-live-updates-brexit-referendum-eu-deal-westminster-london-latest-a8593261.html

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Significantly high turnout. I'm surprised. I wonder if it'll turn nasty?

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/peoples-vote-march-live-updates-brexit-referendum-eu-deal-westminster-london-latest-a8593261.html

its only the  Organisers  quoting those figures and we know Blair and  Campbell  didn't take any notice when 1 million plus people march against the Iraq war Blair have already given his backing 12 months before to Bush and a march with 1 million plus people wasn't going to change his mind or change direction  who knows maybe Tony will make a guest appearance today

'You ignored Iraq WAR protesters!' Andrew Neil SAVAGES Alastair Campbell Brexit demands

ANDREW Neil challenged arch-Remoaner Alastair Campbell to explain why the British Government should listen to Remainers when the Blair Government "ignored" millions marching to stop the Iraq War.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1033650/Brexit-news-Andrew-Neil-Andrew-Neil-BBC-Iraq-War-second-referendum-march-London-latest

[nauseus]

17 hours ago, oilinki said:

After learning how abusive UK politics is towards to real living people, I start to think that Corbyn offers the only real solution for the people of UK. 

 

 

The only solution Corbyn has is a tube of Preparation H. 

[adammike]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

its only the  Organisers  quoting those figures and we know Blair and  Campbell  didn't take any notice when 1 million plus people march against the Iraq war Blair have already given his backing 12 months before to Bush and a march with 1 million plus people wasn't going to change his mind or change direction  who knows maybe Tony will make a guest appearance today

'You ignored Iraq WAR protesters!' Andrew Neil SAVAGES Alastair Campbell Brexit demands

ANDREW Neil challenged arch-Remoaner Alastair Campbell to explain why the British Government should listen to Remainers when the Blair Government "ignored" millions marching to stop the Iraq War.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1033650/Brexit-news-Andrew-Neil-Andrew-Neil-BBC-Iraq-War-second-referendum-march-London-latest

Half a million according to the independent and guardian online not a mention in the telegraph.a link to anything in the express just makes you look a bit silly,That's me being polite.

[vinny41]

17 minutes ago, adammike said:

Half a million according to the independent and guardian online not a mention in the telegraph.a link to anything in the express just makes you look a bit silly,That's me being polite.

Your missing the point 1 million people plus march against stop the iraq war and Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell didn't take a blind bit on notice,  There are some reports that some of the groups attending today's march have received funding from the EU.

Now the EU could disapprove these reports by publishing their Accounts

Ps I have no issue with a vote on the deal the options on the voting paper should be

Accept whatever deal is on the table and leave the EU

Reject whatever deal is on the table and leave the EU

Edited October 20, 2018 by vinny41
extra comment

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, adammike said:

Half a million according to the independent and guardian online not a mention in the telegraph.a link to anything in the express just makes you look a bit silly,That's me being polite.

Can I link to the Mail if only to point out the frothing-at-the-mouth gammons in the comments section? Their collective apoplexy at people exercising their democratic right to demonstrate is a sight to behold.  

 

There are hundreds of the buggers but this is my favourite so far:

 

I think you'll find democracy doesn't work like that. Protesting? Demanding a vote? We decided. You lost. Live with the decisions of you're elders for the rest of your lives and stop complaining. You UNDEMOCRATIC bunch.