UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[adammike]

10 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I tend to agree MB.

 

A good summation of the current situation, IMHO.

 

I would argue that any ennui experienced by the electorate is totally understandable, as the sh*t show of the last 2 years has been enough to induce this in any voter, with the last 6 months being particularly toxic, I'd say. 

If the government are willing to say one thing and do another, and so blatantly & publicly as they have done of late, then the public will, justifiably, abstain from voting altogether at the next GE as both a protest and out of despair of the system - possibly in equal measure. It has never been clearer to most that one's vote really does count for nought! If it can be so easily ignored by the elite political class in power who are able to weasel their way out of abiding by the democratic will of the people, then what's the point of it all?

 

'- voting, well do it if makes you feel better, but if it meant anything, they wouldn't let us do it in the first place' - Mark Twain. He always did have a point. 

 

 

This whole debacle could irrevocably damage the Tories, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the rise of a party like UKIP, but not necessarily them, that has actually been founded on and represents traditional conservative views. This whole labeling of the centre right - which is what most traditional Tory and UKIP voters are, in reality, as some kind of nationalist villainy just goes to show that we in the UK have not experienced REAL far-right politics or politicians in a position of power for a very long time. I don't really think far right parties are something the British abide anyway, as is shown by the woeful results of the BNP / NF every GE. However, with politics as fractured and the two main parties as weak as they currently stand, and while the electorate feels as cheated and disillusioned as they do, the time could be ripe for a more right-wing party to come to the fore to represent those voters who would like to vote for a real conservative party, which we don't have in the UK at the moment and haven't done for some years. If the betrayal of 17.4m people continues to play out as it is, then I'd imagine there will be either a mass abstention from voting in the next GE or there will be a rise in the anti-establishment movements that we saw with the likes of UKIP, who fomented the EU referendum in the first place through their rise in popularity and their threat to both Cons and Lab parties, a few years back. 

 

The 17m represents roughly 25% of the population and they are dying off guesstimates up to 1m? already gone,by the time Brexit pans out in a couple of years another 2m gone that 17m will be down to say 13m doesn't look good for your longed for revolution,plus the useless Jeremy will be history and with the Tory party  disintegrating and splitting the right vote it will be wide open for the left to fill the vacuum.Careful what you wish for.

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Remind me again, in a widespread taxi problem who was it that picked on drivers from a particular part of Europe.

His point was that the people in question were UK residents, not some transient riff-raff from the EU.

 

I think he was just having a go at Sheffield taxi drivers.

[dunroaming]

19 minutes ago, adammike said:

The 17m represents roughly 25% of the population and they are dying off guesstimates up to 1m? already gone,by the time Brexit pans out in a couple of years another 2m gone that 17m will be down to say 13m doesn't look good for your longed for revolution,plus the useless Jeremy will be history and with the Tory party  disintegrating and splitting the right vote it will be wide open for the left to fill the vacuum.Careful what you wish for.

Certainly some logic in there.  I think after Brexit there will be room for a middle ground party who can cherry pick their policies from the left and the right.  Whether anyone has the stomach to have a go is another matter.

[talahtnut]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Brexit was screwed as soon as leave were able to promise the undeliverable "we'll be better off afterwards brexit"  in the referendum campaign.

 

No possible brexit is going to live up to those promises - It's just a case of how soon people realize this. Whatever sort of brexit happens people are going to be disappointed in it.

 

Just look now at the number of leavers who now say - we always said brexit would be painful and you'd end up worse off - they didn't. Those who say that have very selective memories.

The reality is that no-one should lose.

The UK joined the EU because it was uncompetitive,

it still is, sheltering under Mutti's corsets is too comfy.

Leaving the EU should kick-start innovation and

competition. In a sensible world the government should

support business, but thats another issue.

I never voted, but listening to the debate here I do favour

Brexitating, its not so pessimistic as the remain camp.

 

[talahtnut]

46 minutes ago, adammike said:

The 17m represents roughly 25% of the population and they are dying off guesstimates up to 1m? already gone,by the time Brexit pans out in a couple of years another 2m gone that 17m will be down to say 13m doesn't look good for your longed for revolution,plus the useless Jeremy will be history and with the Tory party  disintegrating and splitting the right vote it will be wide open for the left to fill the vacuum.Careful what you wish for.

I wouldn't be surprised if the remainers died off in similar

numbers, quite upsetting to think of really, he he.

[rixalex]

The 17m represents roughly 25% of the population and they are dying off guesstimates up to 1m? already gone,by the time Brexit pans out in a couple of years another 2m gone that 17m will be down to say 13m doesn't look good for your longed for revolution,plus the useless Jeremy will be history and with the Tory party  disintegrating and splitting the right vote it will be wide open for the left to fill the vacuum.Careful what you wish for.

Out of interest, regarding your calculations/speculations, all the young people who support the EU, do you foresee that their political opinions on this are going to remain completely static for their entire lives? That seems to be what you are counting on. It seems somewhat unlikely that a young person is not going to undergo some sort of a political shift as they get older, and that that shift might mean a change in stance on the EU, do you not think? Or is the EU just so darn awesome that there's a lifetime of loving to be had for us all?

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[talahtnut]

49 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

His point was that the people in question were UK residents, not some transient riff-raff from the EU.

 

I think he was just having a go at Sheffield taxi drivers.

He will get Uber it.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

The 17m represents roughly 25% of the population and they are dying off guesstimates up to 1m? already gone,by the time Brexit pans out in a couple of years another 2m gone that 17m will be down to say 13m doesn't look good for your longed for revolution,plus the useless Jeremy will be history and with the Tory party  disintegrating and splitting the right vote it will be wide open for the left to fill the vacuum.Careful what you wish for.

On the radio there was a discussion that some leavers are inserting clauses in their wills giving instructions on how their beneficiaries should vote in any future Referendums over the next 30 years

[melvinmelvin]

17 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

He will get Uber it.

not sure he can Grab that

 

[melvinmelvin]

16 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

On the radio there was a discussion that some leavers are inserting clauses in their wills giving instructions on how their beneficiaries should vote in any future Referendums over the next 30 years

 

you know

the hysteria in UK around Brexit, past two years and still

all the wild stories in msm

 

actually hard to ascertain if you tell a joke or the truth

 

 

[adammike]

29 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Out of interest, regarding your calculations/speculations, all the young people who support the EU, do you foresee that their political opinions on this are going to remain completely static for their entire lives? That seems to be what you are counting on. It seems somewhat unlikely that a young person is not going to undergo some sort of a political shift as they get older, and that that shift might mean a change in stance on the EU, do you not think? Or is the EU just so darn awesome that there's a lifetime of loving to be had for us all?

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Did you see JRM and DD the other day with four even older white males in their press conference that they called to explain where the 48 letters were? I get what you mean "if you are not a communist at 18 there is something wrong with you and if you still a communist at 28 there is something wrong with you" but they won't have the EU to blame for all the ills that plague England! as they age.It's a hard one to call but I think remain will prevail. 

 

 

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, adammike said:

Did you see JRM and DD the other day with four even older white males in their press conference that they called to explain where the 48 letters were? I get what you mean "if you are not a communist at 18 there is something wrong with you and if you still a communist at 28 there is something wrong with you" but they won't have the EU to blame for all the ills that plague England! as they age.It's a hard one to call but I think remain will prevail. 

 

 

 

 

 

right

but where are the 48? according to jrm and dd

[kwilco]

I'll never get my head round the consummate stupidity of Brexitism....

 

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Out of interest, regarding your calculations/speculations, all the young people who support the EU, do you foresee that their political opinions on this are going to remain completely static for their entire lives? That seems to be what you are counting on. It seems somewhat unlikely that a young person is not going to undergo some sort of a political shift as they get older, and that that shift might mean a change in stance on the EU, do you not think? Or is the EU just so darn awesome that there's a lifetime of loving to be had for us all?

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I know this post is directed at adammike but if I can chip in.  Most young people take an anti-establishment view, it is part of our rebellious nature and yes, over time peoples views change, usually based on what career path they choose.  That works both ways of course.  The way we view the EU in years to come is impossible to call so we make our judgements on what is in front of us today.  Inevitably the EU will radically change in time just as the whole world will.  China and India will have a significant effect on the world's economic structure

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I'll never get my head round the consummate stupidity of Brexitism....

 

Its 4 countries actually England, Wales,Scotland and Northern Ireland 

[adammike]

34 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

right

but where are the 48? according to jrm and dd

I had to run out the room when I saw them,it was not a good look, combined age of 485 and DD looked ragged.I think they blamed the EU and remainers and something about Grouse.

[nontabury]

10 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I'll never get my head round the consummate stupidity of Brexitism....

 

Quite true. That must be why I, and millions of other Brits were unable to travel around Europe before The E.u came into being. ????

Regarding E.u citizens,I was speaking with a Scottish gentleman ( yes they do exist) yesterday, married to a Lithuania, who entered the U.K before the advent of the E.u. Seemingly no problem for her,as she is highly educated.

[rixalex]

I know this post is directed at adammike but if I can chip in.  Most young people take an anti-establishment view, it is part of our rebellious nature and yes, over time peoples views change, usually based on what career path they choose.  That works both ways of course.  The way we view the EU in years to come is impossible to call so we make our judgements on what is in front of us today.  Inevitably the EU will radically change in time just as the whole world will.  China and India will have a significant effect on the world's economic structure

Yes I completely agree. It's impossible to predict how future generations will think and vote. That's why I question those confidently making predictions about numbers of certain voters dying off and numbers of new voters who are deemed certain to vote another way. It's all very simplistic in what is a very complex matter.

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[kwilco]

Those Brexit Turkeys are at it again!

 

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Its 4 countries actually England, Wales,Scotland and Northern Ireland 

geography ain't a remainer strength

[nontabury]

17 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I know this post is directed at adammike but if I can chip in.  Most young people take an anti-establishment view, it is part of our rebellious nature and yes, over time peoples views change, usually based on what career path they choose.  That works both ways of course.  The way we view the EU in years to come is impossible to call so we make our judgements on what is in front of us today.  Inevitably the EU will radically change in time just as the whole world will.  China and India will have a significant effect on the world's economic structure

Very true. Much of that change in attitude is to do with the gaining of experience and with it the realities of life. Those just setting off in life do not posses an understanding of either.Unfortunately some people will try and take advantage of this fact, example the SNP in 2014, and now I beleive some remoaners are also suggesting that in addition to having another referendum, children at the age of 16 should also be included.

 

 

[7by7]

25 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Its 4 countries actually England, Wales,Scotland and Northern Ireland 

 

Four countries in one nation state; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

[7by7]

41 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Quite true. That must be why I, and millions of other Brits were unable to travel around Europe before The E.u came into being. ????

As tourists, yes, we could visit many what are now EU member states without a visa; but not all. I visited Hungary as a tourist before they joined the EU and a visa required.

 

But before we joined, if a Brit wanted to retire, study or work in what is now an EU member state, other than the RoI, then the appropriate visa was required. Unless the UK agrees to remain governed by the Freedom of Movement directive, then this will be the situation post Brexit.

 

As EU immigration was a major reason many voted Leave, staying in the FoM directive is highly unlikely as it would be political suicide for whichever government agreed to it.

 

41 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Regarding E.u citizens,I was speaking with a Scottish gentleman ( yes they do exist) yesterday, married to a Lithuania, who entered the U.K before the advent of the E.u. Seemingly no problem for her,as she is highly educated.

She would have needed to follow the family settlement route under the UK's immigration rules; as all non EU nationals in that position have always had to do if they want to live in the UK with their British partner (unless Surinder Singh applies and they can use the FoM directive) and, probably, EU nationals will have to do post Brexit. Plus, of course, post Brexit the Surinder Singh route will probably no longer be an option for Brits and their non EEA national partners; unless we remain in the FoM directive.

Edited November 23, 2018 by 7by7

[melvinmelvin]

off topic comment:

 

re TM & non confidence within her party or in parliament

 

couple of hours ago the largest part in Norway filed/moved a non confidence motion re the current

conservative coalition government

 

(the government has been skating on thin ice since the summer holidays)

 

we'll see

the current government is very UK friendly re the future for UKers in Norway after Brexit

possible new government will not be unfriendly - but will not be ass licking

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

52 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

As tourists, yes, we could visit many what are now EU member states without a visa; but not all. I visited Hungary as a tourist before they joined the EU and a visa required.

 

But before we joined, if a Brit wanted to retire, study or work in what is now an EU member state, other than the RoI, then the appropriate visa was required. Unless the UK agrees to remain governed by the Freedom of Movement directive, then this will be the situation post Brexit.

 

As EU immigration was a major reason many voted Leave, staying in the FoM directive is highly unlikely as it would be political suicide for whichever government agreed to it.

 

She would have needed to follow the family settlement route under the UK's immigration rules; as all non EU nationals in that position have always had to do if they want to live in the UK with their British partner (unless Surinder Singh applies and they can use the FoM directive) and, probably, EU nationals will have to do post Brexit. Plus, of course, post Brexit the Surinder Singh route will probably no longer be an option for Brits and their non EEA national partners; unless we remain in the FoM directive.

post brexit, nobody knows

 

now, pre brexit:

Surinder Singh is OK and can be used by Brits taking a Thai wife to France (hello tebee)

but can not be used by Brits taking a Thai wife to UK

 

at least, that is my understanding

 

but can be used by a Swede to  take a Thai wife into UK

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

On the radio there was a discussion that some leavers are inserting clauses in their wills giving instructions on how their beneficiaries should vote in any future Referendums over the next 30 years

I doubt the wills are worth the effort of writing; If they were they would not be voting Brexit!

[Grouse]

There is a company on TV advertising EU passports for 25000 EUR! Is it just this thread?

[bomber]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

On the radio there was a discussion that some leavers are inserting clauses in their wills giving instructions on how their beneficiaries should vote in any future Referendums over the next 30 years

give owa man

[adammike]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

off topic comment:

 

re TM & non confidence within her party or in parliament

 

couple of hours ago the largest part in Norway filed/moved a non confidence motion re the current

conservative coalition government

 

(the government has been skating on thin ice since the summer holidays)

 

we'll see

the current government is very UK friendly re the future for UKers in Norway after Brexit

possible new government will not be unfriendly - but will not be ass licking

 

 

I would hazard a guess that there are more Norwegians in the UK than UKers in Norway so getting tough on them will not go down well.

[adammike]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I doubt the wills are worth the effort of writing; If they were they would not be voting Brexit!

My niece voted to leave and took my 95yo mums proxy vote with her,she is suitably ashamed and embarrassed and we will make sure she only gets her own vote in the upcoming election/referendum.