UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[aright]

5 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

With all due respect, if you wanna make a case for Brexit, you should come up with:

 

1. Facts (and, thus, sources stating these);

2. How these actually impact the U.K.;

3. How a Brexit would change/improve that sitution. 

 

And, no, I am not saying this to make things difficult for you. It’s pretty much what every proposal requires, and it’s exactly what makes some of the analyses about the negative impacts of Brexit so brilliant. 

 

Your list is missing at least some, if not all of these. It reads like a compilation of fluffy accusations and irrelevant ideas about the EU, and overall like a pretty helpless attempt to bash someone. If that is all what Brexit supporters can produce, I really don’t who you want to convince, especially in light of the very strong analyses others came up with. 

I am not making a proposal I am giving you my opinion of the EU. What proposal do you think I was making?

 

What facts are you referring to? Brexit hasn't happened yet so there are no facts regarding good or bad outcomes for either side only conjecture. Expert opinions, strong analysis, project fear on both sides of the fence are not facts.

 

It shouldn't be surprising that I list my perceived  short comings of the EU, they are among the reasons I voted to leave. I am not in the habit of kissing and cuddling things I don't like.

 

If you want to make a case against any of the EU's faults I outlined  identify them, be specific and tell me why, just don't say they are wrong without explanation......that's not a very rewarding  method of debate.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, aright said:

I am not making a proposal I am giving you my opinion of the EU. What proposal do you think I was making?

 

What facts are you referring to? Brexit hasn't happened yet so there are no facts regarding good or bad outcomes for either side only conjecture. Expert opinions, strong analysis, project fear on both sides of the fence are not facts.

 

It shouldn't be surprising that I list my perceived  short comings of the EU, they are among the reasons I voted to leave. I am not in the habit of kissing and cuddling things I don't like.

 

If you want to make a case against any of the EU's faults I outlined  identify them, be specific and tell me why, just don't say they are wrong without explanation......that's not a very rewarding  method of debate.

 

“What facts are you referring to? Brexit hasn't happened yet so there are no facts regarding good or bad outcomes for either side only conjecture.”

 

Enjoy!:

 

 

[aright]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

I think you are confusing coalition government with membership of the EU. I find coalitions (frequently labelled as weak) to be superior. Our FPTP system ends up with dissatisfied stagnation. The extreme right should have their say. I'm an extreme centrist 

Can you explain the first sentence with reference to my post?

Yes the current coalition and the last one are/were very strong aren't/weren't they and the German coalition is under severe pressure

Of course the extreme right should have their say as should extreme centrists. One of the questions extreme centrists should ask is why are they loosing ground to the extreme right. (Italy, Germany et al.). Why in Europe and the USA are we seeing the eclipse of the political mainstream? It wasn't that long ago when the likes of Donald Trump, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, Marine le Pen and others were unelectable.   ………..have we got it all wrong or is it all part of the process of proto-fascism?

[welovesundaysatspace]

44 minutes ago, aright said:

 I am giving you my opinion of the EU.

It‘a a common misunderstanding about freedom of speech that people think they’re entitled to have an opinion of something without having the arguments to back it up. So please, have your opinion, same like someone can have the opinion that the earth is flat. 

 

44 minutes ago, aright said:

What proposal do you think I was making?

Someone claimed there are “opportunities” that Brexit offers. You were replying to that. Unfortunately, your proposal lacks facts and relevance. 

 

44 minutes ago, aright said:

What facts are you referring to? Brexit hasn't happened yet so there are no facts regarding good or bad outcomes for either side only conjecture. Expert opinions, strong analysis, project fear on both sides of the fence are not facts.

I guess you would also jump from a bridge because that you will die is not a fact until it actually happened, but just “project fear”. Unfortunately, there are facts and logically sound arguments based on these facts—all something that you (and all other Brexiteers I’ve read) are lacking. 

 

44 minutes ago, aright said:

If you want to make a case against any of the EU's faults I outlined  identify them, be specific and tell me why, just don't say they are wrong without explanation......that's not a very rewarding  method of debate.

You didn’t identify any faults. You threw out a list of bold accusations without any factual evidence or even relevance for the issue being discussed. Unless you provide something substantial, there is nothing to debate. You wanted to make a point, so you have to provide evidence for your points and how they’re even relevant for the topic. That’s how a debate works. 

[My Thai Life]

3 hours ago, oilinki said:

If you export products to the UK, how would weak pound be beneficial for you? I would assume the opposite

Glad somone's awake and actually reading and thinking about posts ?

 

Yes of course a weak pound in itself would not be good for someone exporting to the UK. However, the comparative ease of exporting to the UK in the case of a hard brexit without EU bureaucracy and without EU non-tariff barriers would (or could) more than offset any weakness in the pound. Actually I had never thought about exporting to the UK before, but depending on the final agreement I may well start.

 

A weak pound would benefit those of us whose assets and income are not pound denominated, if we chose to visit the UK or buy property in the UK for example.

 

I'd actually really like to see some other people posting personal reasons for or against rather than the copy and paste from "expert" sources that we see so much of. I'm not saying there have been no personal accounts, but if there have been, they are so few and far between that I've never noticed them.

 

I have been assuming that most of the British posters here are retired and receiving pension or other income from the UK. Naturally these posters will be feeling worried.

Edited August 20, 2018 by My Thai Life

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I do accept some merit in your argument.  Personally, I'm hoping Comrade Corbyn will be persuaded to let Labour campaign on a "People's choice or Remain" ticket in the next General Election, which is likely to happen before March 2019 when May gets thrown out by the hard Brexiteers in her party.  I doubt a Boris/Rees-Mogg led "Hard Brexit" ticket would win a General Election.

 

that would be the day

 

past two years UK cabinet has acted like a monthy pyton show come true

 

add your idea;

ge before brexit date

labour campaigning on remain

labour campaign works out - forms a cabinet - pulls uk out of brexit

wow

years of monty pyton stuff here

 

smth like  that would be a rather solid nail in uk's credibility

 

good news media stuff though 

[My Thai Life]

5 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I do accept some merit in your argument.  Personally, I'm hoping Comrade Corbyn will be persuaded to let Labour campaign on a "People's choice or Remain" ticket in the next General Election,

Most of the comments on this thread seem to be very anti-Corbyn. My take...

 

> I agree deeply with some of Corbyn's core values

> I probably wouldn't vote for him to run the country, but that would depend on who he's up against

> Corbyn is a natural leaver because he wants more government intervention in the economy than the EU would allow (at least that's what I understand, I'm not an expert on that specific topic) 

> On the other hand, the EU directives for worker protection are definitely closer to Corbyn's heart than a right wing Tory government's worker policies would be.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by My Thai Life

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Most of the comments on this thread seem to be very anti-Corbyn. My take...

 

> I agree deeply with some of Corbyn's core values

> I probably wouldn't vote for him to run the country, but that would depend on who he's up against

> Corbyn is a natural leaver because he wants more government intervention in the economy than the EU would allow (at least that's what I uderstand, I'm not an expert on that specific topic) 

> On the other hand, the EU directives for worker protection are definitely closer to Corbyn's heart than a right wing Tory government's worker policies would be.

 

 

 

 

2

 

agree, Corbyn is a pretty upright and straight man, (straight not meaning he is not gay)

 

you don't vote for Corbyn, you vote for the labour party

 

desiring more government intervention is  probably not good in the long term

 

labour running the foggy islands; they are fairly free to introduce worker protection stipulations if they so desire

 

 

[Grouse]

41 minutes ago, aright said:

Can you explain the first sentence with reference to my post?

Yes the current coalition and the last one are/were very strong aren't/weren't they and the German coalition is under severe pressure

Of course the extreme right should have their say as should extreme centrists. One of the questions extreme centrists should ask is why are they loosing ground to the extreme right. (Italy, Germany et al.). Why in Europe and the USA are we seeing the eclipse of the political mainstream? It wasn't that long ago when the likes of Donald Trump, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, Marine le Pen and others were unelectable.   ………..have we got it all wrong or is it all part of the process of proto-fascism?

Fair point.

 

I see very difficult times ahead. The new industrial revolution is underway and we will see a falling requirement for skilled workers and knowledge workers. Without some major changes to the capital and labour balance there will be trouble. This is great for demagoguery. Not of these clowns has a workable solution but the underachievers will fall for it every time. Maybe a guaranteed income is the way to go?

[My Thai Life]

following on from Mr Melvin: agreed but,

 

I've never been happy with the way politics works in the UK (and many other parts of the world). One side gets in for a few years, the other team gets in and undoes what the previous team were halfway through doing. And so it goes on.

 

I can understand why some people might say, "the EU will save us from ourselves", but I don't agree with them. For who would save us from the EU, or save the EU from itself!

 

 

 

 

[chang50]

Sick to death of hearing about having a second referendum when we have had two already.

[Grouse]

47 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Glad somone's awake and actually reading and thinking about posts ?

 

Yes of course a weak pound in itself would not be good for someone exporting to the UK. However, the comparative ease of exporting to the UK in the case of a hard brexit without EU bureaucracy and without EU non-tariff barriers would (or could) more than offset any weakness in the pound. Actually I had never thought about exporting to the UK before, but depending on the final agreement I may well start.

 

A weak pound would benefit those of us whose assets and income are not pound denominated, if we chose to visit the UK or buy property in the UK for example.

 

I'd actually really like to see some other people posting personal reasons for or against rather than the copy and paste from "expert" sources that we see so much of. I'm not saying there have been no personal accounts, but if there have been, they are so few and far between that I've never noticed them.

 

I have been assuming that most of the British posters here are retired and receiving pension or other income from the UK. Naturally these posters will be feeling worried.

"I have been assuming that most of the British posters here are retired and receiving pension or other income from the UK. Naturally these posters will be feeling worried."

 

I am 64 and run 6 engineering companies. No desire to retire.

 

It saddens me to see the apparent unstoppable decline of the UK. Manufacturing, engineering, diplomacy, civil society, manners and so on. The falling pound is merely a reflection of core failures.

 

Incidentally, our crap pensions compared to our peers is yet another indication of our decline.

 

IF I do retire at some point, I shall head to Denmark 

[aright]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

It‘a a common misunderstanding about freedom of speech that people think they’re entitled to have an opinion of something without having the arguments to back it up. So please, have your opinion, same like someone can have the opinion that the earth is flat. 

 

Someone claimed there are “opportunities” that Brexit offers. You were replying to that. Unfortunately, your proposal lacks facts and relevance. 

 

I guess you would also jump from a bridge because that you will die is not a fact until it actually happened, but just “project fear”. Unfortunately, there are facts and logically sound arguments based on these facts—all something that you (and all other Brexiteers I’ve read) are lacking. 

 

You didn’t identify any faults. You threw out a list of bold accusations without any factual evidence or even relevance for the issue being discussed. Unless you provide something substantial, there is nothing to debate. You wanted to make a point, so you have to provide evidence for your points and how they’re even relevant for the topic. That’s how a debate works. 

You didn't identify any faults?

Everything I identified was to me a fault and among other things determined my vote. If they are not faults to you ,you need to stand up and be counted.

I have already explained I was not making a proposal or an accusation; to quote myself."

"I am giving you my opinion of the EU. "

I will repeat if you don't like my opinion tell me why. Let's hear your counter claim. Why won't you share your so called facts and logically sound arguments it would save a lot of time since you feel they are so compelling. …………….perhaps you can't think of a reason why. 

[sandyf]

49 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

However, the comparative ease of exporting to the UK in the case of a hard brexit without EU bureaucracy and without EU non-tariff barriers would (or could) more than offset any weakness in the pound. Actually I had never thought about exporting to the UK before, but depending on the final agreement I may well start.

 

Irrespective of any EU/UK agreement UK will no longer be a member of the EU. That being the case, before any non EU entity can trade with the UK, a UK WTO schedule would need to be established. The plan is to adopt the existing EU schedule so it is unlikely that Non EU exporters to the UK will see much difference from the existing regulations.

The EU have yet to agree to the plan, which would also have to be ratified by the WTO. The UK also have the option of writing their own schedule, something that would take years and the "no deal" brigade would rather ignore.

[melvinmelvin]

33 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Fair point.

 

I see very difficult times ahead. The new industrial revolution is underway and we will see a falling requirement for skilled workers and knowledge workers. Without some major changes to the capital and labour balance there will be trouble. This is great for demagoguery. Not of these clowns has a workable solution but the underachievers will fall for it every time. Maybe a guaranteed income is the way to go?

 

guaranteed income is under discussion among scholars in Norway

they call it citizen salary

some argue that that would be the way ahead

 

(does have some communist connotations though, but ....)

 

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Irrespective of any EU/UK agreement UK will no longer be a member of the EU. That being the case, before any non EU entity can trade with the UK, a UK WTO schedule would need to be established. The plan is to adopt the existing EU schedule so it is unlikely that Non EU exporters to the UK will see much difference from the existing regulations.

The EU have yet to agree to the plan, which would also have to be ratified by the WTO. The UK also have the option of writing their own schedule, something that would take years and the "no deal" brigade would rather ignore.

 

hey,

there is no certainty that omc members would accept right away that UK dresses up with the EU service profile

possibly murky waters ahead for uk in omc

 

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

hey,

there is no certainty that omc members would accept right away that UK dresses up with the EU service profile

possibly murky waters ahead for uk in omc

 

One of the deals in the no deal scenario that would have to be dealt with. There has already been objections from NZ & Oz on the quotas.

[sandyf]

38 minutes ago, chang50 said:

Sick to death of hearing about having a second referendum when we have had two already.

No chance whatsoever of a 2nd referendum, any referendum would be a new referendum.

[melvinmelvin]

30 minutes ago, Grouse said:

"I have been assuming that most of the British posters here are retired and receiving pension or other income from the UK. Naturally these posters will be feeling worried."

 

I am 64 and run 6 engineering companies. No desire to retire.

 

It saddens me to see the apparent unstoppable decline of the UK. Manufacturing, engineering, diplomacy, civil society, manners and so on. The falling pound is merely a reflection of core failures.

 

Incidentally, our crap pensions compared to our peers is yet another indication of our decline.

 

IF I do retire at some point, I shall head to Denmark 

 

denmark ain't no bad place to retire, many very nice spots there

 

you say you are saddened, can fully understand that, if i had been british i would also have been saddened

the decline is there, and there it has been for many years and there is no sign that it will stop

 

in another brexit thread you said smth along the same lines and also asked When did it start to go downhill?

found the answer?

 

(i have a view on that but it will not please any UKers - but now hopefully you have thought it out and can offer your wisdom to tvf'ers )

 

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

One of the deals in the no deal scenario that would have to be dealt with. There has already been objections from NZ & Oz on the quotas.

yes,

i wrote about that in another thread long time ago

 

high time uk cabinet starts to do smth re omc

 

 

in the eu-uk negotiations things might fall in place in the 11th hour,

has happened before

however, i do not see  that happening re the omc membership

 

time to start the omc wagon

unless the current monty pyton show is aiming at a non brexit

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

52 minutes ago, aright said:

You didn't identify any faults?

Everything I identified was to me a fault and among other things determined my vote. If they are not faults to you ,you need to stand up and be counted.m

For something to be a fault, it would (a) have to be true, and (b) actually have a considerable negative impact. In order to influence my voting decision, it would also (c) have to be relevant to or fixable through what I’m voting for. None of that is true for the points in your list.

 

Quote

I will repeat if you don't like my opinion tell me why.

Because for something to qualify as an opinion, it needs arguments to back it. 

 

Quote

Why won't you share your so called facts and logically sound arguments it would save a lot of time since you feel they are so compelling.

Those are your accusations. You have to prove it. I won’t do your job. 

 

As for a fact-based and logically sound argumentation, have a look at the lecture from Sir Rogers linked here. Maybe that gives you an idea what the difference is between your laundry list of fluffy accusations and an opinion that can be taken seriously. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Most of the comments on this thread seem to be very anti-Corbyn. My take...

 

> I agree deeply with some of Corbyn's core values

> I probably wouldn't vote for him to run the country, but that would depend on who he's up against

> Corbyn is a natural leaver because he wants more government intervention in the economy than the EU would allow (at least that's what I understand, I'm not an expert on that specific topic) 

> On the other hand, the EU directives for worker protection are definitely closer to Corbyn's heart than a right wing Tory government's worker policies would be.

 

 

 

 

Corbyn is anti everything

 

He managed to fail an education degree from North London poly.

 

I'm sure he's a very nice man but totally unsuitable for prime minister.

 

He is actually an insult to two short planks

 

We NEED  a credible leader for Labour. Have they no intellectuals anymore? Where are our statesmen?

[aright]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

For something to be a fault, it would (a) have to be true, and (b) actually have a considerable negative impact. In order to influence my voting decision, it would also (c) have to be relevant to or fixable through what I’m voting for. None of that is true for the points in your list.

 

Because for something to qualify as an opinion, it needs arguments to back it. 

 

Those are your accusations. You have to prove it. I won’t do your job. 

 

As for a fact-based and logically sound argumentation, have a look at the lecture from Sir Rogers linked here. Maybe that gives you an idea what the difference is between your laundry list of fluffy accusations and an opinion that can be taken seriously. 

 

Do you mean  Sir Ivan Rogers? I commented on his piece some pages ago

 

Can you take the opinion of a Nobel prize winning economist.

 

We’ve given a third of a century to this failed neoliberal ideology. We ought to be striving to look for these alternatives

 

I look forward to your comments on his thesis......your sort of man, economist and Nobel prize winner who argues with customary force and lucidity.

https://newrepublic.com/article/136124/an-utter-failure-joseph-stiglitz-euro-europes-uncertain-future

 

“An Utter Failure”: Joseph Stiglitz on the Euro and Europe’s Uncertain Future

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by aright

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

guaranteed income is under discussion among scholars in Norway

they call it citizen salary

some argue that that would be the way ahead

 

(does have some communist connotations though, but ....)

 

I have experience in artificial intelligence and neural networks. These technologies have leapt forward and will result in the loss of many knowledge based jobs.

 

Unless we do something to share the huge gains to be made (and being made) by robotics, AI, pattern recognition, and decision making system companies we are in trouble. Think about it. We could dramatically reduce the population? Give everyone a guaranteed income? What?

 

This IS the new industrial revolution. We can't all be entertainers.

[aright]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Fair point.

 

I see very difficult times ahead. The new industrial revolution is underway and we will see a falling requirement for skilled workers and knowledge workers. Without some major changes to the capital and labour balance there will be trouble. This is great for demagoguery. Not of these clowns has a workable solution but the underachievers will fall for it every time. Maybe a guaranteed income is the way to go?

Indeed very difficult times ahead; in some ways I am pleased I am ending my career not beginning it. Having said that my children and grandchildren seem to take everything in their stride without too much worry.

Off to do some Fringe Festivaling followed by a dose of Dieppe. Did you leave the drink you promised me at the bar?

Edited August 20, 2018 by aright

[My Thai Life]

18 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We NEED  a credible leader for Labour. Have they no intellectuals anymore? Where are our statesmen?

I think many people may have thought Blair could fit that bill. But he turned out to be arguably the worst PM in my life time (I'm the same age as you).

 

I rather liked Heath's nose, and I was once invited to crew on his yacht. I'm not sure if he was an intellectual, but I gather he could play classical music on his piano.

 

I enjoyed Tony Benn's appearance of integrity, and his intellectual earnestness. But national leader? Possibly not.

[aright]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

I think many people may have thought Blair could fit that bill. But he turned out to be arguably the worst PM in my life time (I'm the same age as you).

 

I rather liked Heath's nose, and I was once invited to crew on his yacht. I'm not sure if he was an intellectual, but I gather he could play classical music on his piano.

 

I enjoyed Tony Benn's appearance of integrity, and his intellectual earnestness. But national leader? Possibly not.

I like Billy Connolly's definition of an intellectual. Any person who can listen to the William Tell Overture without thinking of the Lone Ranger.

[Grouse]

28 minutes ago, aright said:

 

Do you mean  Sir Ivan Rogers? I commented on his piece some pages ago

 

Can you take the opinion of a Nobel prize winning economist.

 

We’ve given a third of a century to this failed neoliberal ideology. We ought to be striving to look for these alternatives

 

I look forward to your comments on his thesis......your sort of man economist and Nobel prize winner who argues with customary force and lucidity.

https://newrepublic.com/article/136124/an-utter-failure-joseph-stiglitz-euro-europes-uncertain-future

 

“An Utter Failure”: Joseph Stiglitz on the Euro and Europe’s Uncertain Future

 

 

We're not in the bloody Euro!

 

How many more times???

[brucec64]

So ALL points are made on race which makes you a ?.. IMO... NOTE IMO  forget imo,,,  FACT making your view biggoted therefore  UNBALANCED..

its not racist if the facts are true. The racist card is thrown around so much by people with little understanding of what it means. The mere mention of race is not automatically racist. It is all about context. Cmon. You are better than that...

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, aright said:

Indeed very difficult times ahead; in some ways I am pleased I am ending my career not beginning it. Having said that my children and grandchildren seem to take everything in their stride without too much worry.

Off to do some Fringe Festivaling followed by a dose of Dieppe. Did you leave the drink you promised me at the bar?

At Deacon Brodie 

 

unless someone drank it!