UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[billd766]

13 hours ago, vogie said:

He would have a photo of his horse Hercules behind him? ????????????

 

[Grouse]

48 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

not a well written article, hope it was done in haste and as such it does not reflect average Guardian quality

What is your view of Norway plus as a possible compromise 

 

Not in EU

In SM and CU

trade undamaged

freedom to live work and retire in EU

No hard border for Ireland 

No ECJ 

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What is your view of Norway plus as a possible compromise 

 

Not in EU

In SM and CU

trade undamaged

freedom to live work and retire in EU

No hard border for Ireland 

No ECJ 

not sure what the + is supposed mean, if you drop the + and say Norway deal, it would mean for the UK:

 

in EEA

in FoM - but may drop Schengen I am pretty sure

in SM but not in CU

trade continued

no Euro threat

green island likely sorted

BA can take off on April fools day

mostly no direct ECJ but you will have EFTA court and EFTA surveillance authority to deal with

would still have to swallow most acquis from Commission

no formal say

budget/cost issues are handled very differently than for EU member states

 

all in all - pretty far from what the voters fancied

 

The UK public, rags, and politicians seem to think that EFTA is some kind of bus they can buy a ticket for and jump on,

it isn't, it is a sovereign treaty organization and it is not given that UK would be welcome at all.

 

There are some reasons for letting UK in there are some pretty good reasons for not opening the door for the UK.

 

(on a personal note I would guess that Commission employees (those dealing with EFTA issues) would prefer

 UK on the outside of EFTA)

 

 

 

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/ministers-consider-backing-norway-plus-as-brexit-plan-b

 

Norway+ as discussed by me as a possible Nash Equilbrium compromise might end up being the Gordian knot slicer

"Boles has also held talks with Labour MPs, 75 of whom defied party instructions to abstain from voting for European Economic Area (EEA) membership in June."

Quite a big knot there.

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

"Boles has also held talks with Labour MPs, 75 of whom defied party instructions to abstain from voting for European Economic Area (EEA) membership in June."

Quite a big knot there.

 

why do you mention June?

 

[Srikcir]

11 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

why do you mention June?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/ministers-consider-backing-norway-plus-as-brexit-plan-b

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/ministers-consider-backing-norway-plus-as-brexit-plan-b

 

ok, but that is history

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

not sure what the + is supposed mean, if you drop the + and say Norway deal, it would mean for the UK:

 

in EEA

in FoM - but may drop Schengen I am pretty sure

in SM but not in CU

trade continued

no Euro threat

green island likely sorted

BA can take off on April fools day

mostly no direct ECJ but you will have EFTA court and EFTA surveillance authority to deal with

would still have to swallow most acquis from Commission

no formal say

budget/cost issues are handled very differently than for EU member states

 

all in all - pretty far from what the voters fancied

 

The UK public, rags, and politicians seem to think that EFTA is some kind of bus they can buy a ticket for and jump on,

it isn't, it is a sovereign treaty organization and it is not given that UK would be welcome at all.

 

There are some reasons for letting UK in there are some pretty good reasons for not opening the door for the UK.

 

(on a personal note I would guess that Commission employees (those dealing with EFTA issues) would prefer

 UK on the outside of EFTA)

 

 

 

Yes, I rather agree...

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

It suggested the UK should do more within existing EU rules to tighten controls on immigration, pointing out that Britain is the only country in the bloc not to have a national ID system.

But you can not blame the EU for that.
Homemade Problem.

Labour did want to introduce a national ID system, in an attempt to stop benefits abuse, unfortunately the Conservatives were against the idea. Now why would that be?

  

[damascase]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

...........

The UK public, rags, and politicians seem to think that EFTA is some kind of bus they can buy a ticket for and jump on,

it isn't, it is a sovereign treaty organization and it is not given that UK would be welcome at all.

 

There are some reasons for letting UK in there are some pretty good reasons for not opening the door for the UK.

 

(on a personal note I would guess that Commission employees (those dealing with EFTA issues) would prefer

 UK on the outside of EFTA)

It looks like EFTA and EEA are being mixed up. Being an EFTA Member does not make you automatically an EEA partner. E.g. Switzerland is part of EFTA, but is not in the EEA. For joining EFTA, the agreement of the other EFTA Members is required,  while participation in the EEA also needs the EU to accept/agree. And don’t think that EFTA Membership leaves you completely free to negotiate FTA’s - Free Trade Agreements - with the rest of the world, as the UK would then be bound by the many trade agreements already concluded by EFTA. A further detail: in general these EFTA FTA’s are formulated very much in line with the current EU FTA’s.........

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Would that be the Labour Party membership which is overwhelmingly anti-Brexit or Corbyn the pro-Brexit leader who is doing the thinking?

True the leadership is anti Brexit, with the exception of JC. The membership, who knows. However the rank and file Labour supporters are in the majority, very keen supporters of Brexit. The two quiries regarding this group, are they being influenced by all the scare stories, spouted by the remain media. And secondly will their loyalty override their natural instinct to know know what is best for them and their country.

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

It would be a hard sell trying to flog off some of the more dreary bits in the North.

Arrogance from a typical remainer.

[transam]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

Arrogance from a typical remainer.

From a posh "blue" area....????

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Labour did want to introduce a national ID system, in an attempt to stop benefits abuse, unfortunately the Conservatives were against the idea. Now why would that be?

  

no national id?

 

DLs? not everybody has that, I know

passport? not everybody has that, I know

if you have a bank account, and want 200 quid before going to your local,

how do you convince the bank that you really are Cecil Cyril and am entitled to those 200?

 

not sure I see it as unfortunate not having a national ID system

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, damascase said:

It looks like EFTA and EEA are being mixed up. Being an EFTA Member does not make you automatically an EEA partner. E.g. Switzerland is part of EFTA, but is not in the EEA. For joining EFTA, the agreement of the other EFTA Members is required,  while participation in the EEA also needs the EU to accept/agree. And don’t think that EFTA Membership leaves you completely free to negotiate FTA’s - Free Trade Agreements - with the rest of the world, as the UK would then be bound by the many trade agreements already concluded by EFTA. A further detail: in general these EFTA FTA’s are formulated very much in line with the current EU FTA’s.........

 

quite correct

 

dunno who is mixing, not me, likely UK rags and politicians

 

I have said several times in this thread and the previous loooooong Brexit thread that the normal way for

a Norway deal would be for UK to;

 

exit EU

seek membership of EFTA

(that granted - base document modified and ratified)

seek EEA membership

(that granted - treaty modified -must be ratified by ALL EEA members, takes significant time)

 

and as I have said umpteen times, international law/treaty stuff is pretty soft

opportunities for shortcuts and quickies are almost endless as long as parties  aree.

 

 

 

 

 

[tebee]

Theresa May is gaslighting a nation with her Brexit deal mantra

 

https://theconversation.com/theresa-may-is-gaslighting-a-nation-with-her-brexit-deal-mantra-107623

 

The direction of political travel for Theresa May in recent weeks has followed a strange pattern, the more opposition emerges in the UK to her withdrawal agreement with the EU, the more she digs in and claims that the deal is everything to all people.

 

May bamboozles her audience and makes claims so grand and with such solemnity, that we are left dazzled by the glaring inconsistencies in her position.

 

Before there’s time for them to be properly examined, they have become headlines in the newspapers and rolling banners on news channels.

[tebee]

22 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Should be punishable parliamentary misconduct too, on this occasion at least, IMHO.

And now lt looks if JC might order Labour MP to abstain - which will probably result in the deal passing 

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

6 minutes ago, tebee said:

And now lt looks if JC might order Labour MP to abstain - which will probably result in the deal passing 

 

 

If this is true (debatable), it would be would be a total contradiction of his diatribe aimed at May and her 'terrible deal' in HoC yesterday, where he said he and the opposition would have 'little choice' but to vote it down on December 11th. If he or his party have an ounce of duty, honour or integrity about them - and intend to keep their much publicised promises - they must not abstain (should be punishable parliamentary offense in such situations IMO), but must vote the deal down. 

 

Then things get interesting....and with a bit of luck, totally non-litigious. Then, WTO here we go!!!! ????????????

Edited November 27, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[nauseus]

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

The games up! The new CON acolytes can't do the Telegraph crossword! 

 

1 across. Twenty nasal hundredweight in reverse. 

 

4 letters

SNOT.

 

Now welcome me back.  

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

SNOT.

 

Now welcome me back.  

Bravo!

To be fair, I'm not old enough to have used / remember 'hundred weights'. 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Bravo!

To be fair, I'm not old enough to have used / remember 'hundred weights'. 

I am.....????

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, transam said:

I am.....????

All I do know is that 'one hundred weight' is roughly 8 stones / 112lbs or 51kg...  

?

????

 

Off topic, I know.

Edited November 27, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[tebee]

Financially, TM's deal is almost as bad as leaving with no deal !

 

 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

All I do know is that 'one hundred weight' is roughly 8 stones / 112lbs or 51kg...  

?

????

Just remember, I have the edge, whether Imperial or Metric over the Metric guys...????

[bomber]

30 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If this is true (debatable), it would be would be a total contradiction of his diatribe aimed at May and her 'terrible deal' in HoC yesterday, where he said he and the opposition would have 'little choice' but to vote it down on December 11th. If he or his party have an ounce of duty, honour or integrity about them - and intend to keep their much publicised promises - they must not abstain (should be punishable parliamentary offense in such situations IMO), but must vote the deal down. 

 

Then things get interesting....and with a bit of luck, totally non-litigious. Then, WTO here we go!!!! ????????????

JC is worried as he knows a no deal will mean recession before he even takes over,he would balls it up in good times never mind a recession and WTO rules,

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, bomber said:

JC is worried as he knows a no deal will mean recession before he even takes over,he would balls it up in good times never mind a recession and WTO rules,

JC wants Brexit and he wants power . He's calculating that the fallout from Mays deal will be enough to damage the Conservatives and that the splits within their ranks will cause a GE soon after we leave.

He'll still have the EU to blame and he'll have the Henry 8th clauses in the Brexit bill to do pretty much what he wants without any parliamentary oversight.

 

No deal brexit will cause too much carnage to the economy and if he gains power after that he'll have to spend too much time fire fighting rather than implementing his socialist paradise.

 

Say what you will about him, sometimes he is a consummate politician 

[bomber]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

JC wants Brexit and he wants power . He's calculating that the fallout from Mays deal will be enough to damage the Conservatives and that the splits within their ranks will cause a GE soon after we leave.

He'll still have the EU to blame and he'll have the Henry 8th clauses in the Brexit bill to do pretty much what he wants without any parliamentary oversight.

 

No deal brexit will cause too much carnage to the economy and if he gains power after that he'll have to spend too much time fire fighting rather than implementing his socialist paradise.

 

Say what you will about him, sometimes he is a consummate politician 

brexit has all but given him power he was a remainer and still is but he will rubbish anything may does or doesnt do its in his interest,but i would bet you he will be happy with the deal altho he will never admit it,all outcome's play into his hands,he simply cannot lose 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, transam said:

From a posh "blue" area....????

Solid Labour. The Conservative candidate was 1000-1 at the last election.

Edited November 27, 2018 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Agree that Farage can catch an audience.

When it comes to Corbyn-May there are some aspects that have not been mentioned.

Corbyn is in my view better looking than May, shouldn't matter in politics but it does.

He is a good speaker.

Corbyn is a fairly decent/honest chap.

Corbyn has fairly clean/white cuffs.

Corbyn is not a fake news heavy.

Corbyn speaks out of what he believes in.

Audiences note things like this and tend to sympathise with it, unless they are anti-JC-fanatics.

My guess is that JC would come out on top.

Corbyn's evasive admittance of support for a whole raft of terrorist movements puts all that "honest" baloney straight into the bin.

[SheungWan]

15 minutes ago, tebee said:

JC wants Brexit and he wants power . He's calculating that the fallout from Mays deal will be enough to damage the Conservatives and that the splits within their ranks will cause a GE soon after we leave.

He'll still have the EU to blame and he'll have the Henry 8th clauses in the Brexit bill to do pretty much what he wants without any parliamentary oversight.

No deal brexit will cause too much carnage to the economy and if he gains power after that he'll have to spend too much time fire fighting rather than implementing his socialist paradise.

Say what you will about him, sometimes he is a consummate politician 

Odd, isn't it, that those who can denounce Tories for being cynical and opportunist, will take the opportunity of admiring the same in Jeremy Corbyn.