UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

> For whatever reason, the major parties backed leave at the election. (And for whatever reason, the electorate voted leave.)

 

> Of course forecasts can be made, but much easier to make forecasts based on current cash flows isn't it. And that's where all the copy and paste is coming from from the forum's leavers. 

 

> Forecasting for an entirely new economic model, or at least one that the UK hasn't followed for 50 years or so, ie a no deal scenario, is possibly more difficult than you might imagine, and would arguably hinder the ongoing "negotiations" anyway.

 

The outcome is by no means a foregone conclusion, so we're all going to have to live with the uncertainty for quite a bit longer. Well not all of us. Many of us are insulated from the outcome one way or the other.

“Many of us are insulated from the outcome one way or the other.”

 

Very many more are not, and it doesn’t need many of those to understand just how exposed they are to the economic dangers of Brexit to completely change the politics of Brexit.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Born and bred. What makes you question that? The history of our continent should guide me into believing that being forcibly governed from an increasingly centralised hub of control is the best course of action? Having less say in our own affairs and less control from our age-old parliament is the right thing for us, as a nation? Fewer and fewer Italians, French, Germans, Spaniards, Hungarians, Poles and many many more would disagree. Homogenisation, centralised consolidation of power and demagoguery have been tried and tested, under a few different guises. The result has been invariably bad. Surely, the history of our continent shows us this more than anything else? Why would you want to repeat it?

“Having less say in our own affairs and less control from our age-old parliament is the right thing for us, as a nation?”

 

Putting aside the UK within the EU remains a sovereign nation with a sovereign Parliament, you seem to have missed the very real threat to Parliaments sovereignty that came, not from the EU but from Theresa May and her cabinet.

 

Theresa May’s Government have made repeated attempts to evade Parliamentary scrutiny and govern by executive decree.

 

She and her Government were only thwarted by the intervention of the House of Lords and the High Court. The latter when ‘enemies of the people’ made legal challenge to stop the Government governing by executive decree.

 

The enemy of British Parliamentary sovereignty is residing in No 10.

[Sir Dude]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Putting aside the UK within the EU remains a sovereign nation with a sovereign Parliament, you seem to have missed the very real threat to Parliaments sovereignty that came, not from the EU but from Theresa May and her cabinet.

 

Tell that to the ECJ...haha

[dick dasterdly]

19 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No. The two main parties feared the wrath of the great unwashed. They FAILED in their responsibility to act in the BEST INTERESTS of their constituents and the country.

 

of course forecasts can be made; we don't live in the dark ages.

 

Corbyn is a useless Trotskyist w***er. He should be fired either metaphorically or literally. He, more than any other, is failing our country by continuing to breath. ⛏

"No. The two main parties feared the wrath of the great unwashed."

 

Pretty much sums up the opinion of many remainers - even though it is a throw-back to the beginning/middle of the last century ☹️.

 

It will clearly come as a suprise for you to learn that even the poor wash.... ?.

 

You prefer to rely on these types of insults rather than recognise that the fact of the matter.  The two main parties realised that if they had backed 'remain' as part of their campaign in the last GE, they would have lost numerous votes - which is why they weakly supported the referendum result, and concentrated on other issues instead.....  The Lib Dems on the other hand, made it very clear that they supported remain, and lost even more votes....

 

I do agree though that "of course forecasts can be made".  Sadly, said 'forecasts" have been proven wrong time and time again since the leave/remain propaganda started - in the run-up to the referendum.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“Having less say in our own affairs and less control from our age-old parliament is the right thing for us, as a nation?”

 

Putting aside the UK within the EU remains a sovereign nation with a sovereign Parliament, you seem to have missed the very real threat to Parliaments sovereignty that came, not from the EU but from Theresa May and her cabinet.

 

Theresa May’s Government have made repeated attempts to evade Parliamentary scrutiny and govern by executive decree.

 

She and her Government were only thwarted by the intervention of the House of Lords and the High Court. The latter when ‘enemies of the people’ made legal challenge to stop the Government governing by executive decree.

 

The enemy of British Parliamentary sovereignty is residing in No 10.

I actually wouldn't disagree, she is useless and unscrupulous. I can't wait to see the back of her either.

 

The fact that you think the UK is really a sovereign nation with a truly sovereign parliament when a large percentage of our own legislation must be ratified into existence by an EU Parliament/Commission or ECHR puzzles me though. Neither situation is very appealing to me, but firstly - leaving the union must be the top of our agenda and then, perhaps more importantly, attempting to fix our own broken political system - free of impediment from outside forces, must follow.

 

Two tall orders, as things stand. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

Tell that to the ECJ...haha

I think you need to find out what is the Jurisdiction of the ECJ and what it rules on.

[My Thai Life]

An integrated Europe is a great idea. I am a committed European, and have worked right across Europe inside and outside of the EU.

 

But an EU of "ever closer [political] union" is not something I would vote for.

 

I have a feeling the UK budget negotiations might take us into an area that would be satisfactory to most, but probably not the hardline exiters.

 

Clearly, some remainers are unhappy because of the immediate effect on their business, or employment, or income. This is understandable, and I do sympathise with them. These problems are not insuperable. And they are in the nature of things anyway.

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

National and civic pride are indeed very good things.

 

They are not the reserve of ‘Leave’ supporters and may be found in equal measure amongst ‘Remain’ supporters.

 

 

You lost me on your claim the EU is restricting personal liberties. You seem adamant on the point so perhaps you can give us a few examples.

 

I didn't, really want to get in to this in depth right now, but I guess I have made my own bed by ranting? ?

 

First off, I wouldn't argue that civic or national pride is the sole preserve of Leave voters by any means, that's very arrogant and I'd agree, totally incorrect. It just seems to me to be obvious that anyone who has some pride in their country and who cares about its sovereignty and it's future - would not want to see it remain in an unholy, undemocratic union such as the EU.

 

A few examples, hmm, ok then. Well, leaving aside the facts that - the British public were never ever consulted about the majority of the legislation and subsequent 'ever closer union' that has occurred in the last 3 decades, (as, similarly, the other constituent nations weren't either), these could qualify:

 

Massive over-regulation in the private sector 

 

'The reality is that the UK is now saddled with far greater amounts of red tape – forcing up energy costs and making industry uncompetitive, for example – than used to be the case, the majority of this has emanated from the EU'

OECD report 2015, quoted in the Telegraph among others.

 

Making our industrial (private) sectors far less competitive and also a less appealing investment opportunity, as well slowing economic growth and job creation overall as a result. Whilst simultaneously making it ever more difficult for small and medium sized businesses to prosper in the UK. As if their task wasn't difficult enough, it has looked more and more like the introduction of industry / sector wide tighter controls / restrictions benefits corporate big boys and ties the smaller and medium sized  businesses' hands. Much of this being health hand safety BS and ever increasing political correctness directives, that any thinking person must be pretty fed up with.

 

This is the EU all over to my knowledge - working in favour of big money / corporate backers and centralising control in the hands of a select few. Not allowing free market capitalism to exist. Its anathema to that system , the EU is a fine example of globalism wreaking havoc on the entrepreneurial man in the street.

 

Not to mention the CFP... or CAP - massive subsidies given to people who need them least so that near useless new energy solutions can erected, marring the landscape and helping to drive the costs of energy ever skyward.

 

Let's not forget the legislation that has been forced upon working people across the continent without any form of elective potential to combat it coming from the public. If it weren't for some extenuation circumstances, split in government opinion and the perceived drop in confidence in the sterling, we might well have joined the Euro - at the EUs suggestion, of course. Then where would we be? 

 

- I won't even begin to touch on the glaring immigration crisis we face in the UK and, (again thanks to the EU) much of continental Europe is now swamped with. If you honestly think we, like the majority of our European neigbours, still govern ourselves, making the real decisions - on some very fundamental aspects of our own countries' prosperity, make-up, social cohesion, economy or existential progression then I think maybe more enquiry is necessary on your part. Contrary to my statements above, I wouldn't opine that the EU is all bad either, it has been responsible for some good things and a few noteworthy developments, but basically, to my knowledge at least, nothing that couldn't equally be accomplished outside a political/customs/military union enforcing the free movement of people - that no one ever voted for.

 

Watch - This Sceptic Isle, by Peter Hitchens and see if that changes your mind about anything. It's one of the better documentaries on the subject -  pre-Brexit. Not totally impartial of course, but then what piece of journalism ever is?!

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

An integrated Europe is a great idea. I am a committed European, and have worked right across Europe inside and outside of the EU.

 

But an EU of "ever closer [political] union" is not something I would vote for.

 

I have a feeling the UK budget negotiations might take us into an area that would be satisfactory to most, but probably not the hardline exiters.

 

Clearly, some remainers are unhappy because of the immediate effect on their business, or employment, or income. This is understandable, and I do sympathise with them. These problems are not insuperable. And they are in the nature of things anyway.

 

An interesting point, as we all have our own 'red lines' that MUST not be crossed (in our own, personal opinion)

 

Extremely unfortunate, as it would likely be a far less contentious issue if the eu had only recognised the aspects most disliked by the entire eu population (no excuse for not doing so after the brexit vote) - and then made serious reforms.

[whatsupdoc]

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

An interesting point, as we all have our own 'red lines' that MUST not be crossed (in our own, personal opinion)

 

Extremely unfortunate, as it would likely be a far less contentious issue if the eu had only recognised the aspects most disliked by the entire eu population (no excuse for not doing so after the brexit vote) - and then made serious reforms.

Can you mention even just one aspect which is disliked by the entire EU population?

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I read in The Guardian yesterday that a hypothetical 2nd referendum could include 3 options:

 

> no deal

> May's deal

> remain.

 

Hmm, that would split the leave vote, and would never be accepted.

 

This is what I mean when I say a 2nd referendum would be an operational nightmare. Never mind the constitutional, legal and political nightmares that I have also alluded to.

 

 

I doubt there will be a second referendum of any sort.  May will bring a deal before Parliament, which will be accepted or rejected: either way brings finality imo.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

continue on with our proud island story - on our own terms, as we always have done! 

 

Of Course - The good old days and the way we did things.

1966
On 20th July, 1966, the Prime Minister decided, for no economic reason as far as I can tell, to impose a £50 limit on the travel allowance for British citizens abroad. That £50 was computed thus. The total number of British citizens travelling outside the sterling area was divided into the aggregation of expenditure and it was decided that the average expenditure per person was a trifle less than £50. The Chancellor therefore decided on a £50 limit.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1967/jun/19/overseas-travel-allowance

1967
Wilson defends 'pound in your pocket'
The Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, has defended his decision to devalue the pound saying it will tackle the "root cause" of Britain's economic problems. The government announced last night it was lowering the exchange rate so the pound is now worth $2.40, down from $2.80, a cut of just over 14%.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_3208000/3208396.stm

1968
The Black Dwarf was launched in June 1968 under Tariq Ali's editorship, with several other IMG members on its editorial board. Its creative and pluralist nature attracted a number of new activists to the group: John Lennon was friendly to the organisation.
While IMG members largely remained in the Labour party, including Charlie van Gelderen, International marked a break from 'deep entrism'. Its first issue claimed that "The Week was brought out in the expectation that a mass left would arise in the Labour party once labour was in power. [Its] main function was that of an organiser and co-ordinator [...] but this will be a by-product of the main function of International: the creation of a firm marxist core in the labour movement." Its campaigning was focussed on broader initiatives such as the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign and Russell Tribunal, in which Ernie Tate was prominent and in which the RSL and Socialist Labour League did not work, the Institute for Workers' Control and the Revolutionary Socialist Students Front, in which Peter Gowan and Murray Smith were active. The agitational work of The Week was carried on in the The Black Dwarf and in Socialist Woman, launched in 1969. The Group gained some public prominence when Tariq Ali, who had joined in April 1968, was widely publicised in the media as a leader of protests against the Vietnam War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Marxist_Group

1969
Troubles in Ireland escalate
During the riots, on 13 August, Taoiseach Jack Lynch made a television address. He condemned the RUC and said that the Irish Government "can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse". He called for a United Nations peacekeeping force to be deployed and said that Irish Army field hospitals were being set up at the border in County Donegal near Derry. Lynch added that Irish re-unification would be the only permanent solution. Some interpreted the speech as a threat of military intervention.[78] After the riots, Lynch ordered the Irish Army to plan for a possible humanitarian intervention in Northern Ireland. The plan, Exercise Armageddon, was rejected and remained classified for thirty years.
On 14–15 August, British troops were deployed in Derry and Belfast to restore order,[80] but did not try to enter the Bogside, bringing a temporary end to the riots. Eight people had been shot dead, more than 750 had been injured (including 133 who suffered gunshot wounds) and more than 400 homes and businesses had been destroyed (83% Catholic-owned). 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

1970
The docks strike of 1970 was a major industrial action by dockers in the United Kingdom that raised fears of food shortages and led to a proclamation of a state of emergency by Queen Elizabeth II.
Dockers struck for a pay rise of £11 per week (£109 at 2003 prices) on 15 July 1970 and around 47,000 dockers were involved nationally. The strike seriously cut imports and exports and cost the British economy between £50 and £100 million (£495 and 990 million at 2003 prices). The British Army were stood by to protect food supplies but most dockers agreed to handle perishable goods and the strike was largely peaceful. The dockers lost £4 million (£40 million at 2003 prices) in wages.
A court of inquiry was convened under Lord Pearson and proposed an average 7% increase in pay. Though this was at first rejected by the dockers, it was ultimately accepted on 30 July.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docks_strike_of_1970

19 May – The government made a £20 million loan available to help save the financially troubled luxury car and aircraft engine manufacturer Rolls Royce. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_in_the_United_Kingdom

1971
The 1971 United Kingdom postal workers strike was a strike in the United Kingdom staged by postal workers between January and March 1971. The strike was Britain's first national postal strike and began after postal workers demanded a pay rise of 15-20% then walked out after Post Office managers made a lower offer. The strike began on 20 January and lasted for seven weeks, finally ending with an agreement on Thursday 4 March. After voting over the weekend, the strikers returned to work on Monday 8 March 1971. The strike overlapped with the introduction of decimal currency in the U.K. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_United_Kingdom_postal_workers_strike

4 February – Rolls-Royce went bankrupt and was nationalised.
1 March – An estimated 120,000 to 250,000 "kill the bill" protesters went on strike against the 1971 Industrial Relations Act in London.
19 April – Unemployment reached a post-Second World War high of nearly 815,000.
24 June – The EEC agreed terms for Britain's proposed membership and it was hoped that the nation will join the EEC next year.
28 October: The House of Commons voted in favour of joining the EEC by a vote of 356-244.
Undated:Inflation stood at a 30-year high of 8.6%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_in_the_United_Kingdom

1972
9 January – The National Union of Mineworkers held a strike ballot in which 58.8% voted in favour. Coal miners begin a strike which lasts for seven weeks, including picketing of Saltley coke depot in Birmingham.
20 January – Unemployment exceeded 1,000,000 for the first time since the 1930s-almost double the 582,000 who were unemployed when Edward Heath's Conservative government came to power less than two years ago.
9 February – A State of emergency was declared as a result of the miners' strike.
23 June – The Chancellor of the Exchequer Anthony Barber announced a decision to float the Pound.
28 July – A strike by thousands of dockers led to the government announcing a state of emergency on 4 August.
6 November – The government introduced price and pay freezes to counter inflation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_in_the_United_Kingdom

[vogie]

18 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Can you mention even just one aspect which is disliked by the entire EU population?

Juncker.?????

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Can you mention even just one aspect which is disliked by the entire EU population?

The huge waste of tax payer money on frequently moving the entirety of govt. and staff between different countries.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

19 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Of Course - The good old days and the way we did things.

1966
On 20th July, 1966, the Prime Minister decided, for no economic reason as far as I can tell, to impose a £50 limit on the travel allowance for British citizens abroad. That £50 was computed thus. The total number of British citizens travelling outside the sterling area was divided into the aggregation of expenditure and it was decided that the average expenditure per person was a trifle less than £50. The Chancellor therefore decided on a £50 limit.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1967/jun/19/overseas-travel-allowance

1967
Wilson defends 'pound in your pocket'
The Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, has defended his decision to devalue the pound saying it will tackle the "root cause" of Britain's economic problems. The government announced last night it was lowering the exchange rate so the pound is now worth $2.40, down from $2.80, a cut of just over 14%.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_3208000/3208396.stm

1968
The Black Dwarf was launched in June 1968 under Tariq Ali's editorship, with several other IMG members on its editorial board. Its creative and pluralist nature attracted a number of new activists to the group: John Lennon was friendly to the organisation.
While IMG members largely remained in the Labour party, including Charlie van Gelderen, International marked a break from 'deep entrism'. Its first issue claimed that "The Week was brought out in the expectation that a mass left would arise in the Labour party once labour was in power. [Its] main function was that of an organiser and co-ordinator [...] but this will be a by-product of the main function of International: the creation of a firm marxist core in the labour movement." Its campaigning was focussed on broader initiatives such as the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign and Russell Tribunal, in which Ernie Tate was prominent and in which the RSL and Socialist Labour League did not work, the Institute for Workers' Control and the Revolutionary Socialist Students Front, in which Peter Gowan and Murray Smith were active. The agitational work of The Week was carried on in the The Black Dwarf and in Socialist Woman, launched in 1969. The Group gained some public prominence when Tariq Ali, who had joined in April 1968, was widely publicised in the media as a leader of protests against the Vietnam War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Marxist_Group

1969
Troubles in Ireland escalate
During the riots, on 13 August, Taoiseach Jack Lynch made a television address. He condemned the RUC and said that the Irish Government "can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse". He called for a United Nations peacekeeping force to be deployed and said that Irish Army field hospitals were being set up at the border in County Donegal near Derry. Lynch added that Irish re-unification would be the only permanent solution. Some interpreted the speech as a threat of military intervention.[78] After the riots, Lynch ordered the Irish Army to plan for a possible humanitarian intervention in Northern Ireland. The plan, Exercise Armageddon, was rejected and remained classified for thirty years.
On 14–15 August, British troops were deployed in Derry and Belfast to restore order,[80] but did not try to enter the Bogside, bringing a temporary end to the riots. Eight people had been shot dead, more than 750 had been injured (including 133 who suffered gunshot wounds) and more than 400 homes and businesses had been destroyed (83% Catholic-owned). 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

1970
The docks strike of 1970 was a major industrial action by dockers in the United Kingdom that raised fears of food shortages and led to a proclamation of a state of emergency by Queen Elizabeth II.
Dockers struck for a pay rise of £11 per week (£109 at 2003 prices) on 15 July 1970 and around 47,000 dockers were involved nationally. The strike seriously cut imports and exports and cost the British economy between £50 and £100 million (£495 and 990 million at 2003 prices). The British Army were stood by to protect food supplies but most dockers agreed to handle perishable goods and the strike was largely peaceful. The dockers lost £4 million (£40 million at 2003 prices) in wages.
A court of inquiry was convened under Lord Pearson and proposed an average 7% increase in pay. Though this was at first rejected by the dockers, it was ultimately accepted on 30 July.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docks_strike_of_1970

19 May – The government made a £20 million loan available to help save the financially troubled luxury car and aircraft engine manufacturer Rolls Royce. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_in_the_United_Kingdom

1971
The 1971 United Kingdom postal workers strike was a strike in the United Kingdom staged by postal workers between January and March 1971. The strike was Britain's first national postal strike and began after postal workers demanded a pay rise of 15-20% then walked out after Post Office managers made a lower offer. The strike began on 20 January and lasted for seven weeks, finally ending with an agreement on Thursday 4 March. After voting over the weekend, the strikers returned to work on Monday 8 March 1971. The strike overlapped with the introduction of decimal currency in the U.K. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_United_Kingdom_postal_workers_strike

4 February – Rolls-Royce went bankrupt and was nationalised.
1 March – An estimated 120,000 to 250,000 "kill the bill" protesters went on strike against the 1971 Industrial Relations Act in London.
19 April – Unemployment reached a post-Second World War high of nearly 815,000.
24 June – The EEC agreed terms for Britain's proposed membership and it was hoped that the nation will join the EEC next year.
28 October: The House of Commons voted in favour of joining the EEC by a vote of 356-244.
Undated:Inflation stood at a 30-year high of 8.6%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_in_the_United_Kingdom

1972
9 January – The National Union of Mineworkers held a strike ballot in which 58.8% voted in favour. Coal miners begin a strike which lasts for seven weeks, including picketing of Saltley coke depot in Birmingham.
20 January – Unemployment exceeded 1,000,000 for the first time since the 1930s-almost double the 582,000 who were unemployed when Edward Heath's Conservative government came to power less than two years ago.
9 February – A State of emergency was declared as a result of the miners' strike.
23 June – The Chancellor of the Exchequer Anthony Barber announced a decision to float the Pound.
28 July – A strike by thousands of dockers led to the government announcing a state of emergency on 4 August.
6 November – The government introduced price and pay freezes to counter inflation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_in_the_United_Kingdom

Meanwhile, the rest of the world enjoyed a dearth of wealth, perfect health and ever stable socio-economic conditions totally devoid of corruption, war, disease, industrial strikes, market fluctuations, civil unrest / discontent, all living happily together, just getting on with their lives, c.1965 - ???? 

 

C'mon now. What's your point? We're better off in the EU and none of this would have ever happened on their watch?  ???

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Chomper Higgot]

46 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

I didn't, really want to get in to this in depth right now, but I guess I have made my own bed by ranting? ?

 

First off, I wouldn't argue that civic or national pride is the sole preserve of Leave voters by any means, that's very arrogant and I'd agree, totally incorrect. It just seems to me to be obvious that anyone who has some pride in their country and who cares about its sovereignty and it's future - would not want to see it remain in an unholy, undemocratic union such as the EU.

 

A few examples, hmm, ok then. Well, leaving aside the facts that - the British public were never ever consulted about the majority of the legislation and subsequent 'ever closer union' that has occurred in the last 3 decades, (as, similarly, the other constituent nations weren't either), these could qualify:

 

Massive over-regulation in the private sector 

 

'The reality is that the UK is now saddled with far greater amounts of red tape – forcing up energy costs and making industry uncompetitive, for example – than used to be the case, the majority of this has emanated from the EU'

OECD report 2015, quoted in the Telegraph among others.

 

Making our industrial (private) sectors far less competitive and also a less appealing investment opportunity, as well slowing economic growth and job creation overall as a result. Whilst simultaneously making it ever more difficult for small and medium sized businesses to prosper in the UK. As if their task wasn't difficult enough, it has looked more and more like the introduction of industry / sector wide tighter controls / restrictions benefits corporate big boys and ties the smaller and medium sized  businesses' hands. Much of this being health hand safety BS and ever increasing political correctness directives, that any thinking person must be pretty fed up with.

 

This is the EU all over to my knowledge - working in favour of big money / corporate backers and centralising control in the hands of a select few. Not allowing free market capitalism to exist. Its anathema to that system , the EU is a fine example of globalism wreaking havoc on the entrepreneurial man in the street.

 

Not to mention the CFP... or CAP - massive subsidies given to people who need them least so that near useless new energy solutions can erected, marring the landscape and helping to drive the costs of energy ever skyward.

 

Let's not forget the legislation that has been forced upon working people across the continent without any form of elective potential to combat it coming from the public. If it weren't for some extenuation circumstances, split in government opinion and the perceived drop in confidence in the sterling, we might well have joined the Euro - at the EUs suggestion, of course. Then where would we be? 

 

- I won't even begin to touch on the glaring immigration crisis we face in the UK and, (again thanks to the EU) much of continental Europe is now swamped with. If you honestly think we, like the majority of our European neigbours, still govern ourselves, making the real decisions - on some very fundamental aspects of our own countries' prosperity, make-up, social cohesion, economy or existential progression then I think maybe more enquiry is necessary on your part. Contrary to my statements above, I wouldn't opine that the EU is all bad either, it has been responsible for some good things and a few noteworthy developments, but basically, to my knowledge at least, nothing that couldn't equally be accomplished outside a political/customs/military union enforcing the free movement of people - that no one ever voted for.

 

Watch - This Sceptic Isle, by Peter Hitchens and see if that changes your mind about anything. It's one of the better documentaries on the subject -  pre-Brexit. Not totally impartial of course, but then what piece of journalism ever is?!

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

I think you should have concentrated your efforts rather than presenting so many unfounded assertions.

 

By example, this claim is completely at odds with reality:

 

“This is the EU all over to my knowledge - working in favour of big money / corporate backers and centralising control in the hands of a select few. Not allowing free market capitalism to exist. Its anathema to that system , the EU is a fine example of globalism wreaking havoc on the entrepreneurial man in the street.”

 

The EU has frequently challenged big business and big money in favour of consumers, levying huge fines on International corporations that have been rigging markets.

 

Much of EU regulations directly challenge big business in favour of workers, customers, the general public and the environment.

 

Within the EU, the U.K. has frequently acted to thwart EU regulations that challenge big business and big money. A prime example is the proposals for a Common, Consilidated Corporate Tax Base (CCCTB), this EU initiative aims to place international corporations on a level playing field with local businesses by removing the ability of international corporations to split transactions and ‘ship them offshore’ to avoid tax. Starbucks paying the same taxes as Dolly’s Cafe.

 

The UK stands alone fighting the CCCTB.

 

The defender of Globalist excess, tax dodging and minimising citizen/worker’s rights is resident in No 10.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The huge waste of tax payer money on frequently moving the entirety of govt. and staff between different countries.

Agreed an utter waste.

 

Why not fix it rather than wrecking the UK economy.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

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Posted just now

  46 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

I didn't, really want to get in to this in depth right now, but I guess I have made my own bed by ranting? 

 

First off, I wouldn't argue that civic or national pride is the sole preserve of Leave voters by any means, that's very arrogant and I'd agree, totally incorrect. It just seems to me to be obvious that anyone who has some pride in their country and who cares about its sovereignty and it's future - would not want to see it remain in an unholy, undemocratic union such as the EU.

 

A few examples, hmm, ok then. Well, leaving aside the facts that - the British public were never ever consulted about the majority of the legislation and subsequent 'ever closer union' that has occurred in the last 3 decades, (as, similarly, the other constituent nations weren't either), these could qualify:

 

Massive over-regulation in the private sector 

 

'The reality is that the UK is now saddled with far greater amounts of red tape – forcing up energy costs and making industry uncompetitive, for example – than used to be the case, the majority of this has emanated from the EU'

OECD report 2015, quoted in the Telegraph among others.

 

Making our industrial (private) sectors far less competitive and also a less appealing investment opportunity, as well slowing economic growth and job creation overall as a result. Whilst simultaneously making it ever more difficult for small and medium sized businesses to prosper in the UK. As if their task wasn't difficult enough, it has looked more and more like the introduction of industry / sector wide tighter controls / restrictions benefits corporate big boys and ties the smaller and medium sized  businesses' hands. Much of this being health hand safety BS and ever increasing political correctness directives, that any thinking person must be pretty fed up with.

 

This is the EU all over to my knowledge - working in favour of big money / corporate backers and centralising control in the hands of a select few. Not allowing free market capitalism to exist. Its anathema to that system , the EU is a fine example of globalism wreaking havoc on the entrepreneurial man in the street.

 

Not to mention the CFP... or CAP - massive subsidies given to people who need them least so that near useless new energy solutions can erected, marring the landscape and helping to drive the costs of energy ever skyward.

 

Let's not forget the legislation that has been forced upon working people across the continent without any form of elective potential to combat it coming from the public. If it weren't for some extenuation circumstances, split in government opinion and the perceived drop in confidence in the sterling, we might well have joined the Euro - at the EUs suggestion, of course. Then where would we be? 

 

- I won't even begin to touch on the glaring immigration crisis we face in the UK and, (again thanks to the EU) much of continental Europe is now swamped with. If you honestly think we, like the majority of our European neigbours, still govern ourselves, making the real decisions - on some very fundamental aspects of our own countries' prosperity, make-up, social cohesion, economy or existential progression then I think maybe more enquiry is necessary on your part. Contrary to my statements above, I wouldn't opine that the EU is all bad either, it has been responsible for some good things and a few noteworthy developments, but basically, to my knowledge at least, nothing that couldn't equally be accomplished outside a political/customs/military union enforcing the free movement of people - that no one ever voted for.

 

Watch - This Sceptic Isle, by Peter Hitchens and see if that changes your mind about anything. It's one of the better documentaries on the subject -  pre-Brexit. Not totally impartial of course, but then what piece of journalism ever is?!

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

I think you should have concentrated your efforts rather than presenting so many unfounded assertions.

 

By example, this claim is completely at odds with reality:

 

“This is the EU all over to my knowledge - working in favour of big money / corporate backers and centralising control in the hands of a select few. Not allowing free market capitalism to exist. Its anathema to that system , the EU is a fine example of globalism wreaking havoc on the entrepreneurial man in the street.”

 

The EU has frequently challenged big business and big money in favour of consumers, levying huge fines on International corporations that have been rigging markets.

 

Much of EU regulations directly challenge big business in favour of workers, customers, the general public and the environment.

 

Within the EU, the U.K. has frequently acted to thwart EU regulations that challenge big business and big money. A prime example is the proposals for a Common, Consilidated Corporate Tax Base (CCCTB), this EU initiative aims to place international corporations on a level playing field with local businesses by removing the ability of international corporations to split transactions and ‘ship them offshore’ to avoid tax. Starbucks paying the same taxes as Dolly’s Cafe.

 

The UK stands alone fighting the CCTB.

 

The defender of Globalist excess, tax dodging and minimising citizen/worker’s rights is resident in No 10.

Ok. So, since I gave you a fair few pertinent and totally founded examples, (despite what you might think) how about you give me a few in return, besides the one debatable one you have above. Possible?

 

It sounds more and more like you're a pathological anti-Tory. Not that I identify as Tory or Labour myself, so I've no dog in that race, so to speak, but it just sounds more and more like you're reserving your ire and disdain for May and not realising what a menace the EU is to so many and will continue to grow into, by all accounts.

 

Seriously - the EU, anti-big business! anti-Globalist! Pro-democracy! Ppppfff, pull the other one, it's got bells on. ?

Edited August 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Agreed an utter waste.

 

Why not fix it rather than wrecking the UK economy.

Because it is not up for discussion or reformation, none of their transgressions or incompetencies are! That's the point! It should be clear at this point.

Edited August 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Ok. So, since I gave you a fair few pertinent and totally founded examples, (despite what you might think) how about you give me a few in return, besides the one tenuous and debatable one you have above. Possible?

 

It sounds more and more like you're a pathological anti-Tory. Not that I identify as Tory or Labour myself, but it just sound more like you're reserving your ire and disdain for May and not realising what a menace the EU is and will continue to grow into, by all accounts. The EU, anti-big business! Anti-Globalist! Pro-democracy! Ppppfff, pull the other one, it's got bells on. ?

Well I just drove a big red bus through one of your examples.

 

What more do you want?

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Because it is not up for discussion or reformation, none of their transgressions or incompetencies are! That's the point! It should be clear at this point.

Everything is up for discussion.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Agreed an utter waste.

 

Why not fix it rather than wrecking the UK economy.

Because they have no intention of 'fixing it'! 

 

The 'eu gravy train' is not just a myth - it's a reality and one of my major 'gripes/objections' against the eu ☹️.

 

And yes, I realise that uk politicians/bureaucrats are little better - but at least we have a minimal amount of 'control' over their excesses.  Hence the scandal about brit. MP's 'expenses' - which were at least curtailed a little as a result.

 

Plus, you asked for one example of something universally hated about the eu - and I provided the most obvious.

 

Clearly there are many other reasons why so many voted for brexit!

Edited August 21, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well I just drove a big red bus through one of your examples.

 

What more do you want?

 

Ha! Big red bus? Definitely not, a mini cooper at best.

 

I'd like to hear your wider, further reaching, fundamental argument behind why you are for remaining, above and beyond the one relatively small issue that you raised, (which I would say is very open to interpretation) in reply to me, as opposed to my several different points. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Everything is up for discussion.

The eu has made it very clear (even after the brexit vote!) that this is not the case ☹️.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Ha! Big red bus? Definitely not, a mini cooper at best.

 

I'd like to hear your wider, further reaching, fundamental argument behind why you are for remaining, above and beyond the one relatively small issue that you raised, (which I would say is very open to interpretation) in reply to me, as opposed to my several different points. 

One of many arguments:

 

The U.K. is economically and politically stronger as s member of the EU than it will be as an individual nation.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

The eu has made it very clear (even after the brexit vote!) that this is not the case ☹️.

The EU have been waiting for the UK to present its ‘negotiating position’, when after more than two years the U.K. got around to producing a ‘white paper’ it turned out to be a sheet of nothing.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

The EU have been waiting for the UK to present its ‘negotiating position’, when after more than two years the U.K. got around to producing a ‘white paper’ it turned out to be a sheet of nothing.

And this is a point on which I often disagree with leavers on this forum.

 

IMO, the govt. (which consists of MPs - the vast majority of whom support remain) are looking for a 'way out'.

 

Hence the lack of any preparation for the prospect of 'no deal'.

[My Thai Life]

The issue that the remain camp keep on ducking, and not just on this thread is "what does 'ever closer union' mean?". As this has never been defined, there can only be speculative answers. I suspect that most remain voters have never even thought about it.

 

In the short-term, while the UK is adjusting to whatever new relationships, processes and systems we will be working with post leave, there will inevitably be an economic hit. The long term is simply not predictable.

 

In the long-term there may not even be an EU, or it may be in a very different shape from today. There are many fault lines within the EU, and any one could lead to its downfall. The overriding dependency on Germany is a major risk to the EU; if for whatever reason Germany goes into recession, the EU will be finished. The UK's departure could trigger positive change and reform within the EU, but I doubt it. 

 

If the EU had kept to the original expectation of being a common market, I suspect the UK would never have even raised the idea of a referendum.

[candide]

56 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Seriously - the EU, anti-big business! anti-Globalist! Pro-democracy! Ppppfff, pull the other one, it's got bells on. ?

I asked this question several times but never got any answer, so maybe this time I will be more lucky.

How a post-Brexit UK relying on worldwide free trade agreements will be less subject to globalism?

Relatedly: how a smaller economic entity (UK) will be better able to resist the pressures of powerfull transnational corporations or states (i.e. if you don't do that, I won't invest in your country)?

I would be enlighted to know your arguments on these specific questions.

[kwilco]

It seeme that Brexiteers don't like food either.....

 

"If we were to leave the European Union and trade on WTO rules, his supermarket is working on the basis that tariffs will be levied on goods being imported to the UK from the EU. So, for example, cheese will attract a 44 per cent tariff, beef a 40 per cent tariff, lamb a 40 per cent tariff, chicken a 22 per cent tariff, apples a 15 per cent tariff and grapes a 20 per cent tariff, and so on. "

WTO tariffs via supermarkets and the Independant.