UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Still waiting...

To answer your stawman argument.

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/here-are-10-tory-u-turns-since-the-election-was-called

 

https://taxfoundation.org/uk-abandons-structural-tax-reform/

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-36684452

 

 

https://www.accountancydaily.co/treasury-abandons-plan-abolish-class-2-nics

 

 

The list goes on.

 

 

Now let’s have you present a legal or constitutional argument why the government may not abandon Brexit ( that doing so would upset you is already known, so skip that bit).

 

 

 

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Why will it be too late to rejoin the EU once we have left?

 

Where did I mention the EU or brexit.

I have to assume that if you made an offer on a house and the survey revealed a significant structural fault, you would not reconsider your decision and just implement the purchase regardless. Of course having bought it you can always try and resell it.

 

Circumstances change and a sensible entity will reconsider decisions affected by said change, of course the leavers would have us believe that people were as well informed before the vote as they are now, nothings changed.

Toshiba recognised their problems and baled out, time the government reconsidered their position with brexit.

 

Plans for a new nuclear power station in Cumbria have been scrapped after the Japanese conglomerate Toshiba announced it was winding up the UK unit behind the project.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/08/toshiba-uk-nuclear-power-plant-project-nu-gen-cumbria

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, adammike said:

We aren't stop them, sniping from the sidelines is all we can do,The PM is running the show it's a Tory party -brexiteers gig, you can't lay anything at the door of remainers.OWN IT.

The PM is a remainer.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, billd766 said:

I agree with you 100%.

 

When I first came here in 1993 the rates are as the link below.

 

http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?A=1&C1=GBP&C2=THB&DD1=01&MM1=01&YYYY1=1993&B=1&P=&I=1&DD2=31&MM2=12&YYYY2=1993&btnOK=Go!

 

The average over the year was 38.045 but who cares about facts on the Remainer forum?

 

 

 

The Asian financial crisis of 1997 effectively revalued the Thai economy, any revaluation creates a new start point.

 

It would be like saying if the price of beer before decimalisation was 10 pence and it was 10 pence after, then the price never went up.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

Never let it be said that I do not own up to making an incorrect statement. I had forgot the 1997 Asian financial crisis. My statement regarding GBP/THB was incorrect. Mea culpa.

 

I should have said the pound was at its lowest for 20 years.

 

My mistake. Sorry.

 

Thanks to those who pointed out my error ????

The Asian event resulted in the record day for sterling against the baht in January 1998, I think, when it hit 90, briefly. I just want people to realize that forex rates can jump violently for a variety of reasons, not just anything to do with the EU. The earliest rate I can see is from the 1950's and the GBP/THB range extremes are 28 to 90. A lot of expats moved to Thailand when they were getting 60 or better and this rate was one of the main reasons for retiring here. I agree that a disorderly Brexit will result in a further slump in the pound but I think that you already know that my own opinion is that the main driver of this will be sentiment and that in the long-term the UK and the pound will benefit being free from the EU. 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

I think your posts would be much improved if you didn't feel the need to use derogatory tones.

 

Why do you feel the need to use expressions like "doh", does it make you feel superior to other posters?

‘Doh’ as in a glaringly obvious problem with point of argument to which I responded.

 

If you don’t like ‘Doh’ make points of argument that are not so glaringly flawed.

[adammike]

33 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The PM is a remainer.

That reply and others like it is pure "dead cat strategy" straight out of the Boris Johnson play book (copyright Suzanne Moore today's guardian) we won't let you blame the Brexit cluster f!#k on anybody but the Tory's and the brexiteers including TM.You own it.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

""We have to live with this the longest time," says Matilda. "But nobody asked us." She was 15 years old when a narrow majority of her compatriots voted to try their luck outside of the European Union. Several members of Matilda's family voted for Brexit. But "not everybody understood what they were voting for," she says."

 

A 15 year old is sure she understands the issues involved better than those with a different opinion ????.

 

Edit - To be fair, all teenagers are convinced they know far better than the older generations - it's what being a teenager is all about ????.

Let’s not ever have you complain about others being patronising in their comments.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

So you believe that what could be perceived to be a democratic decision, which subsequently appears to be flawed, should not be overturned until it is too late to overturn it.

There is a saying about cutting off your nose.

The democratic decision was not flawed. The action plan was.

Edited December 1, 2018 by nauseus
+ic

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, adammike said:

That reply and others like it is pure "dead cat strategy" straight out of the Boris Johnson play book (copyright Suzanne Moore today's guardian) we won't let you blame the Brexit cluster f!#k on anybody but the Tory's and the brexiteers including TM.You own it.

 

I don't have a copy of Boris's book. You seem to think that TM is a brexiteer. I don't think she is and that has always been a problem. 

[kwilco]

Referendum or whatever, I don't see the removal of my right to freedom of movement around Europe as democratic.

[adammike]

59 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I don't have a copy of Boris's book. You seem to think that TM is a brexiteer. I don't think she is and that has always been a problem. 

The issue is not about TM as such it's about Brexit being such a cluster and you and others on here trying to blame remainers for the f=#k up it's turned out to be.All those who campaigned for and voted leave are entirely responsible for Brexit ,it's not JC or remainers.You own Brexit.

[tebee]

8 hours ago, adammike said:

You talk nonsense, Brexit is down to the people who voted leave,even you should be able to get your round that simple fact.

The current Brexit mes is down to the politicians who encouraged people to vote leave, by promising the imposable.

 

Sadly people believe them and some still do - it's much easier to blame others than change your mind.

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The democratic decision was not flawed. The action plan was.

There was no democratic decision. There was a vote built on lies and false promises. Banana republic style.  

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

No one is denying your right to appeal, but to overturn a democratically mandated decision is in direct contradiction of the majority's wishes - therefore, by definition - antidemocratic. It's that simple.

There was no “democratically mandated decision”. There was a vote built on lies and false promises. If you want to call something “antidemocratic” then that. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[AlexRich]

8 hours ago, evadgib said:

The title of an early Genesis album springs to mind ('Selling England by the Pound'):

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-tell-eu-it-will-no-longer-seek-access-to-secure-aspects-of-galileo

 

Seems I'm not alone:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46407249

 

Yes, particularly the track "More Fool Me" ... dedicated to Brexiters.

 

[rixalex]

To answer your stawman argument.
 
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/here-are-10-tory-u-turns-since-the-election-was-called
 
https://taxfoundation.org/uk-abandons-structural-tax-reform/
 
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-36684452
 
 
https://www.accountancydaily.co/treasury-abandons-plan-abolish-class-2-nics
 
 
The list goes on.
 
 
Now let’s have you present a legal or constitutional argument why the government may not abandon Brexit ( that doing so would upset you is already known, so skip that bit).
 
 
 

Oh come on. You can't seriously be comparing a nationwide vote in which people were supposedly being given a decision on one specific issue, with manifesto pledges being broken and changes in tax laws. It's hardly the same thing is it.

And the ridiculous thing is the same people trying to argue that the 2016 vote was meaningless are out of the other side of their mouths saying that we need another vote. Presumably this new one will also be meaningless if it doesn't go their way. If it does, the people will have spoken and that will be the end of it.

On your last question, I have already stated that technically speaking there is nothing to stop politicians from ignoring the vote. Technically speaking there's quite a lot they COULD do. The reason why they don't is as I've explained, the same type of reason why the Queen doesn't get involved in politics. Not everything in the democratic process is written into law.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

Quote from the link.

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-mistakes-that-led-to-brexit-a-1240126.html

 

""We have to live with this the longest time," says Matilda. "But nobody asked us." She was 15 years old when a narrow majority of her compatriots voted to try their luck outside of the European Union. Several members of Matilda's family voted for Brexit. But "not everybody understood what they were voting for," she says."

 

Without trying to be patronising, exactly the same could and was said about the referendum of 1975, and we older people have lived with that for 43 years so far. Many of us have waited until 2016 to correct that mistake.

 

We voted then for our families and our unborn children and for the UK but we too were lied to by politicians who did know the truth about the EU at that time.

 

At that time there were few computers, little or no internet, no social media, no smart phones, there was only the print media, BBC and ITV news and the radio. It was easy to fool the population back then and easier to fool them now.

 

What makes me laugh is this idea that there was some sinister master plan with the originators of the EU ... all of whom are long dead and have no influence over what it is today. It's a trading bloc that has evolved, and the direction that it will go in the future is unknowable. It's not inconceivable that the direction travel might well change, like the ebbs and flows of politics over the years. The EU Commission does not determine that, the member countries do, so a lot depends on who is elected in individual countries and what their agenda is.

 

Lucky for you Matilda is not your granddaughter ... as you'd be off her Christmas card list.

 

And one other thing, the internet is not the friend of democratic nations. It is even more easy to fool people ... as Cambridge Analytica and Kremlin propaganda teams have found out ... we are bombarded with misinformation and lies, some of which people believe.

Edited December 1, 2018 by AlexRich

[AlexRich]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

I think you are confusing it with a dictatorship.????

 

No, that happens when you vote once and can never change your mind ... Hitler was voted into power, then all opposition were eliminated. Same with Putin. 

 

A second vote is a democratic act, and it's the only act that can stop Brexit should people in the UK decide that is what they want. 

[tebee]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

If remainers are trying to overturn a democratic decision, it is the end of democracy as we know it and more to the point as you know it.

It never was a democratic decision, it was a democratic suggestion. 

[AlexRich]

6 hours ago, rixalex said:

They key aspect which you omit to mention is the part in which democratic decisions get implemented first and then overturned. What you desire is for a democratic decision to be overturned before it has been implemented. If this is happening all the time, as you allege, please cite some examples.

 

 

Did it not also happen in Ireland (EU matter)?

Edited December 1, 2018 by AlexRich

[AlexRich]

6 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Everyone who voted LEAVE knew that there would be short term " turbulance " in leaving a massively corrupt organisation which imo is but a " front " for the elite financial globalists.
I still await an answer from any remoaner as to which country the following represent...Soros, Blair, A Campbell, the reps of Citibank, Rothchilds; Goldman Sachs etc.
Why do the above have access to the powers that be in the eu hq in Brussels???
Do you honestly believe that any of the above give a second's thought about the Man/Woman on the street in the UK!!!???
Please remember who crashed the pound sterling back in 1991 and reportably made a massive fortune by doing so. Soros.
People like him are but scum imo..they worship and have respect only for money..just a pity that money cannot give you good health or true happiness.



Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You do know there was a US hedge fund billionaire, Robert Mercer, behind Cambridge Analytica, who were heavily involved in influencing the Leave vote?

 

 

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

It never was a democratic decision, it was a democratic suggestion. 

Call it a Portuguese Turkey if you want, the government said they would implement it.

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

No, that happens when you vote once and can never change your mind ... Hitler was voted into power, then all opposition were eliminated. Same with Putin. 

 

A second vote is a democratic act, and it's the only act that can stop Brexit should people in the UK decide that is what they want. 

parliament does not need a 2nd referendum to stop Brexit, if they so wish

 

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

""We have to live with this the longest time," says Matilda. "But nobody asked us." She was 15 years old when a narrow majority of her compatriots voted to try their luck outside of the European Union. Several members of Matilda's family voted for Brexit. But "not everybody understood what they were voting for," she says."

 

A 15 year old is sure she understands the issues involved better than those with a different opinion ????.

 

Edit - To be fair, all teenagers are convinced they know far better than the older generations - it's what being a teenager is all about ????.

 

Like all those teenagers who protested about the Vietnam war? 

 

I suspect they've rumbled that a bunch of old people have saddled them with even more economic stress in the future, which is easy for them to do as they will not be affected by it, and completely screwed up any of the opportunities that free movement opens up to them. 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Referendum or whatever, I don't see the removal of my right to freedom of movement around Europe as democratic.

I don't think that will be removed. Unless you are a naughty boy, of course.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

 

Like all those teenagers who protested about the Vietnam war? 

 

I suspect they've rumbled that a bunch of old people have saddled them with even more economic stress in the future, which is easy for them to do as they will not be affected by it, and completely screwed up any of the opportunities that free movement opens up to them. 

 

Virtual raspberry!

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, rixalex said:

No but read it anyway.

Glad you read it!

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

No one is denying your right to appeal, but to overturn a democratically mandated decision is in direct contradiction of the majority's wishes - therefore, by definition - antidemocratic. It's that simple.

 

And look, be serious, we haven't even left yet! Premature doomsday diagnoses are the specialty of those who didn't get their own way - aka: the establishment & the Remoan crowd. Simply playground tactics writ large. It's as blatant as the noses on your faces, and we can all see through it I'm afraid.

 

You might not have much choice, as it looks like parliament is going to blow up the Brexit dream ... with a second referendum. If parliament abandoned Brexit it would be undemocratic, but of the people of this country vote again it is most certainly democratic. Now they know what the deal looks like, they are better informed. I sense much fear amongst leavers.

 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

The Asian financial crisis of 1997 effectively revalued the Thai economy, any revaluation creates a new start point.

 

It would be like saying if the price of beer before decimalisation was 10 pence and it was 10 pence after, then the price never went up.

A bit like Harold Wilson said on 19 November 1967 

 

"But on 19 November, he went on radio and television to reassure consumers that devaluation “does not mean, of course, that the pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse, or in your bank, has been devalued”. It didn’t take an economist, however, to tell you that that was nonsense."