UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[smedly]

 

There are even more lies to come?

yes and the one that comes to mind is the Scottish independent vote that wasn't independence at all, Scotland needs the UK or EU neither of which are independent, I would have a lot of admiration with the Scots if they actually wanted to go it alone but that is not what they were voting for - it was never independence, it was either brussels or stay in the UK, I think some smart people realised that and voted accordingly 

 

oh and not to forget - something which your SNP commies will not tell you, you will have to pay the rest of the UK (if you decided to leave)  your share of Uk debt - 5billion Sterling every year for the next 20 years and while you are thinking about that - Brussels will not be paying it, in fact as it works out you will never qualify for EU membership anyway - never in a month of Sunday's, I personally have an dear affiliation with the Scots but your SNP is leading you down a road to destruction, it really is the lemmings thing - follow us and we will lead you off a cliff, the honor of shipbuilding goes without saying, in fact you would get a lot more only for EU regulations, it will be an absolute honor for those serving on the two biggest navel ships ever built to know that they were built in Scotland and perhaps many more to come

 

  

don't forget how the bread is buttered - we are a Nation that is better off together, Robert is a long time dead - respect, but the EU is going off in the direction of armies. seriously - for what, a free trading group of countries now wanting to build an army - well my guess is that 25 member countries don't want to go that direction - only Germany and France, the common market is a distant memory

 

Yes it started of as a trading partnership - now heading full steam to a military power, what happened to trading peacefully between friends - it has very obviously got lost somewhere

[melvinmelvin]

 

This is supposedly a leaked version of the full legal appraisal of TMs deal. 

Read and judge for yourself.

 

 http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Withdrawal-Agreement-Legal-and-Governance-Aspects.pdf

 

good stuff

 

should have been available long ago

 

[smedly]

 

some sort of trade deal

yes just some sort of trade deal, what the hell does it matter, just some sort of trade deal with the 5th largest economy in the world - who would worry about that

 

There are currently 3 countries that trade the most in the EU - yes out of the 28 - the rest just tag alone and get handouts - The UK - Germany and France and a little bit of Spain and Italy...………...the EU is about to lose a leg - they will hobble about and if not careful will also lose an arm, a trade deal with the UK will be done, what people object to is the amount of control that TM has handed to Brussels in that process, a trade deal right across the board makes sense to everyone but she has handed Brussels total control of it all - that is what is not acceptable, can anyone imagine someone like Trump agreeing to such lunacy

[SheungWan]

 

yes just some sort of trade deal, what the hell does it matter, just some sort of trade deal with the 5th largest economy in the world - who would worry about that

 

There are currently 3 countries that trade the most in the EU - yes out of the 28 - the rest just tag alone and get handouts - The UK - Germany and France and a little bit of Spain and Italy...………...the EU is about to lose a leg - they will hobble about and if not careful will also lose an arm, a trade deal with the UK will be done, what people object to is the amount of control that TM has handed to Brussels in that process, a trade deal right across the board makes sense to everyone but she has handed Brussels total control of it all - that is what is not acceptable, can anyone imagine someone like Trump agreeing to such lunacy

Can anyone stop this contribution shooting itself in the foot?

[melvinmelvin]

aside

 

 

Gordon Brown in Oslo,

he has received the "OK chap" price,

he gets to hand out 200 000 pounds to organizations deserving some charity.

 

The formalities will take place Friday in a rather odd restaurant, a very brown boozer's place.

 

 

 

[tebee]

Another Brexit dream dies....

 

 

[tebee]

The UK is suffering political paralysis. 

 

There's nothing to be done, except accept the humiliation and failure- those are the only options the Brexit vote gave the UK. 

Brexit has put the UK in a box, and the UK doesn't know how to get out.

 

The EU have shown you the door - and yet you reject it. It is the only door - otherwise you stay in the club, help make the rules and contribute towards the common good.

 

No Deal= international pariah, untrustworthy partner, legal and fiscal armageddon.

The UK political parties still promise nirvana to their believers, and yet this nirvana is just a Brexit dream- unachievable, a fantasy.

Labour/ Conservative - it doesn't matter - Brexit is a solution looking for a problem. 

 

Neither of the traditional parties can Tdefine what the problem is, but the referendum itself revealed racism, supremacism and exceptionalism as the problem in the UK, and now the parties can't solve that problem with Brexit.

 

You voted for this, and you'll have to find out the hard way that there is no putting back in the box the racist element of UK society that has been revealed, for either party. Your Parliamentary system has failed you.

 

Brexit is destroying the UK, and Scotland will leave, NI will leave, and then Engerlund will be governed by the Tories forever. Labour know this, but what can they do? The cat is out of the bag and can't be put back.

 

You can always cancel the whole thing, write a constitution for the benefit of all, rejoin the real world of cooperation and shared common goals and values, and in a few years Brexit will be like a bad dream- history.

 

Or not. And then the vultures will arrive and clean up your mess for you. That won't be pretty.

 

Remember the joke:

Q: What do you do if you run into a tiger in the jungle?

A: Nothing, the tiger will do it all for you.

You let the big cat out of the bag- it will do it all for you.

Only a few months to figure out the mess you got yourselves into, Britain. Good luck.

[aright]

Forty-four per cent of people quizzed in the survey thought the consequences of a “no-deal” Brexit had been “wildly exaggerated”.

Half of voters (50%) were against the idea of a second EU referendum while 40% supported such a poll.

And two years on from the 2016 referendum decision to quit the EU, voters were virtually split down the middle about whether to stay or leave the bloc.

Forty-five per cent in the survey wanted to Leave the EU while 44% wanted to Remain.

Half of voters (50%) thought staying in the EU would be "humiliating" while 39% disagreed. A similar proportion (48% against 35%) felt remaining in the EU "risks seriously undermining confidence in British democracy".

Sixty-five per cent of people quizzed in the survey backed a vision of a dynamic economy "focused on building strong international trade links" following next year's departure from the EU. And nearly half of voters (45%) would be prepared to sacrifice some economic growth "in order to complete Brexit properly", the poll found. Polling firm ComRes interviewed just over 2,000 UK adults online over the weekend in the survey on current attitudes to Brexit commissioned by the Daily Express.

 

https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/daily-express-voting-intention-and-brexit-poll-2018/

[AlexRich]

 

yes and the one that comes to mind is the Scottish independent vote that wasn't independence at all, Scotland needs the UK or EU neither of which are independent, I would have a lot of admiration with the Scots if they actually wanted to go it alone but that is not what they were voting for - it was never independence, it was either brussels or stay in the UK, I think some smart people realised that and voted accordingly 

 

oh and not to forget - something which your SNP commies will not tell you, you will have to pay the rest of the UK (if you decided to leave)  your share of Uk debt - 5billion Sterling every year for the next 20 years and while you are thinking about that - Brussels will not be paying it, in fact as it works out you will never qualify for EU membership anyway - never in a month of Sunday's, I personally have an dear affiliation with the Scots but your SNP is leading you down a road to destruction, it really is the lemmings thing - follow us and we will lead you off a cliff, the honor of shipbuilding goes without saying, in fact you would get a lot more only for EU regulations, it will be an absolute honor for those serving on the two biggest navel ships ever built to know that they were built in Scotland and perhaps many more to come

 

  

don't forget how the bread is buttered - we are a Nation that is better off together, Robert is a long time dead - respect, but the EU is going off in the direction of armies. seriously - for what, a free trading group of countries now wanting to build an army - well my guess is that 25 member countries don't want to go that direction - only Germany and France, the common market is a distant memory

 

Yes it started of as a trading partnership - now heading full steam to a military power, what happened to trading peacefully between friends - it has very obviously got lost somewhere

 

Many Scots never voted for independence because it would mean leaving the EU. Independence just means that your government makes all the decisions, like any other EU country, which is different from devolution, were it has less control. I'm not sure that Danes, Belgians, Dutch, German, French, etc consider themselves anything other than independent nations. The English have strong anti-EU feelings but you don't hear that in Scotland, or indeed Northern Ireland. England have effectively taken Scotland out of the EU against their will, and that has given the SNP the chance to raise the independence debate again, one that was dead and buried prior to the Brexit referendum. Non-EU countries that want to set up in the EU prefer the English language, so the UK took the lion's share of inward investment. An independent Scotland within the EU might well pick that investment up, and that might well make the independence case more attractive? But Scots are waiting to find out how this Brexit mess will end ... a hard Brexit may well spell the end the UK, as Scotland and Northern Ireland leave. It might also put the Conservatives out of power for a very long time. The whole thing is a mess.

 

 

[AlexRich]

 

Another Brexit dream dies....

 

 

 

The only way of exiting the EU with a transition deal that doesn't tie your hands is to hand back Northern Ireland to the Republic and reunite Ireland. That would solve many of the problems ... May can say "there you go Arlene, how do you like them apples you red faced cow?"

 

 

[Srikcir]

 

 

The only way of exiting the EU with a transition deal that doesn't tie your hands is to hand back Northern Ireland to the Republic and reunite Ireland. That would solve many of the problems ... May can say "there you go Arlene, how do you like them apples you red faced cow?"

 

 

"hand back Northern Ireland to the Republic" - not a clear consensus for that.

According to a survey conducted by LucidTalk in October, a clear majority would opt for Northern Ireland to stay in the UK, with 55% in favour of remaining and 33% against.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/northern-ireland/89293/will-ireland-unite-after-brexit

Edited December 4, 2018 by Srikcir
poll link

[tebee]

 

"hand back Northern Ireland to the Republic" - not a clear consensus for that.

According to a survey conducted by LucidTalk in October, a clear majority would opt for Northern Ireland to stay in the UK, with 55% in favour of remaining and 33% against.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/northern-ireland/89293/will-ireland-unite-after-brexit

 Depends on Brexit 

 

 

Support for a united Ireland would increase if there ended up being a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, according to the poll.

Of the 1,199 people questioned in Northern Ireland, 56% said the return to these arrangements would lead them to vote for a united Ireland which was outside of the UK.

 

However, if Brexit does not go ahead, only 35% said they would support a united Ireland outside of the UK while 52% would vote for Northern Ireland to remain part of the UK, with 11% unsure how they would vote and the rest would not take part in the ballot.

 

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/poll-suggests-majority-in-ni-would-support-united-ireland-if-brexit-leads-to-hard-border-866372.html

 

 

[Grouse]

 

 

  The word Gullible comes to mind.

The word Travels comes to mind 

[rixalex]

You can placate yourself with if the FACTS had been explained to the masses before they had a chance to jump on a predominantly racist bandwagon, there wouldn't have been 17.4 million of you! There wouldn't even have been close to a majority so your democratic principles would be upheld by a second vote which the leavers would lose by a landslide!
 
The right result in the end and we can all forget this utterly disastrous ill-informed madness ever happened!

As far as playing of the racist card is concerned, you need to look within within your own camp, judging from remainers on here expressing the view that they would rather Britain receive unvetted, unscreened EU immigrants, than African or Asian ones who HAVE been tested to show their work and language skills, on the basis that African and Asian people "aren't like us" in the way Europeans are.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[rixalex]

 
The long and bloody decline of the UK began when some prat who went to Eton decided to hold a referendum on an immensely complex and important subject. The only way that you can overcome the referendum vote is with another referendum, two democratic acts. If parliament cannot come up with a solution they have little choice but to go back to the people. That's democracy in action.
 
 

What all this nonsense means is that letting the people decide is fine as long as what they decide agrees with alexrich.

Democracy in action is repeating the same question until you get the answer you like and then declaring the matter settled.

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[malagateddy]

There are now many people talking about new referendum / people's vote.
This works well for the people in UK, who wish to stay within the EU.
 
But does anyone think why EU would want to keep the UK, which has not been the kindest member of EU over the years?
 
Without UK, our EU is able to go forward with our further integration. With UK inside, it's' a lot more difficult. 
 
Why should EU countries. The 27 of us, allow UK to keep this Brexit game going on? What is the great value of Britain, which allows it to play this game over and over again?
 
[/url]  

You certainly like the UK money!!! Paracites

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[melvinmelvin]

 

What all this nonsense means is that letting the people decide is fine as long as what they decide agrees with alexrich.

Democracy in action is repeating the same question until you get the answer you like and then declaring the matter settled.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

"The long and bloody decline of the UK began when some prat who went to Eton decided to hold a referendum on an immensely complex and important subject. The only way that you can overcome the referendum vote is with another referendum, two democratic acts. If parliament cannot come up with a solution they have little choice but to go back to the people. That's democracy in action."

 

Not sure I understand "the Rich" reference to parliament and solution.

 

If parliament just keeps on talking without doing anything Brexit will come.

Regardless of deal being voted down or not.

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

 

 

Old men on a pension ... harking back to some halcyon day in their childhood that never existed ... happy to see people lose their jobs and businesses fail ... so that they can't back to buying 2lb of Tripe for 10 and six.

 

 

You seem to specialise in a certain establishment-fed drivel. Try turning off CH4 and the BBC. At this point your head must be so full of received wisdom there's barely any space for you to comprehend even basic arguments. Actually, that explains quite a lot! ????

 

 

 

No, I wouldn't and I don't think anyone else would either. Why? Because it is no longer the status quo vs promises, we have a much better understanding of the facts. A vote based on the facts on the table would settle the matter. 

 

I'm calling bo*****s!

 

So if the 2nd ref. returned a 2nd Leave vote you would reverse all of your rhetoric and give up your arguments? I won't attempt to speak for you personally, but judging from the same old banal, misguided protests you've been making, I woulnd't be so sure you would 'accept' a 2nd massive democratic upset - 'better understanding' or no better understanding - a totally laughable claim in the first place. ???? This is an ideological issue for most, so being told they have not go their way a 2nd time probably wouldn't diminish their further, in most cases, it might do the opposite.

 

Here's what I see as the most absurd part of your and others' 'standard excuse' when asked the question I have above about a 2nd referendum. You say 'a vote based on the facts of leaving' is what you require to make some kind of informed decision going forward. I and those of us who voted Leave would give this idea a lot more credit and leeway if the whining alley-cats that comprise Remoan would at least wait until we have actually left the EU before demanding a vote based on such requisites. Otherwise a vote based on these precepts wouldn't happen, isn't that incredibly obvious to those of even minor intellect?

 

You have to try something for a while before knowing what 'the facts of that circumstance' actually are, anything that comes before is called (politely) conjecture or more correctly - total bloody guesswork. 

What a nonsense. Typical gutless Remoaner rubbish.

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

 

I guess we'll see how things work out after British parliament votes down this deal in 11th. 

 

It's been saddening to see how little the British politicians care for their people over their own personal power. I never have seen such an acts in politics before. It's one of the reasons why I think EU might be better off without UK as a member. 

 

 

'I never have seen such an acts in politics before'

 

You sir, either have a particularly severe form of retrograde amnesia or are simply viewing the EU through the most rose tinted glasses imaginable. My guess is a combination of both.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/2437817/Nicolas-Sarkozy-Ireland-must-vote-again-on-EU-Lisbon-treaty.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/referendum-in-denmark-second-chance-for-voters-to-get-it-right-voters-in-denmark-go-to-the-polls-2323503.html

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3707704/Undemocratic-EU-bullies-Ireland-into-another-vote.html

 

You have no answers to these facts, I notice. You seldom make arguments or debate the realities, you simply drone on monotonously about 'how wonderful our EU is' and how much the establishment 'care for the member states'. Delusional.

 

 

'I think EU might be better off without UK as a member.' 

This, however I'm in full agreement with. Why on earth would such a fair and compassionate organisation such as the EU want the UK to remain knowing full well that it doing so would be against the will of over half the country, and because of this, is be liable to be an even bigger thorn in their side than before?

 

Could it have something to do with the billions in taxpayer's cash they would receive annually? Such altruistic gentlemen, these EU bigwigs. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Grouse]

 

You seem to specialise in a certain establishment-fed drivel. Try turning off CH4 and the BBC. At this point your head must be so full of received wisdom there's barely any space for you to comprehend even basic arguments. Actually, that explains quite a lot! ????

 

 

I'm calling bo*****s!

 

So if the 2nd ref. returned a 2nd Leave vote you would reverse all of your rhetoric and give up your arguments? I won't attempt to speak for you personally, but judging from the same old banal, misguided protests you've been making, I woulnd't be so sure you would 'accept' a 2nd massive democratic upset - 'better understanding' or no better understanding - a totally laughable claim in the first place. ???? This is an ideological issue for most, so being told they have not go their way a 2nd time probably wouldn't diminish their further, in most cases, it might do the opposite.

 

Here's what I see as the most absurd part of your and others' 'standard excuse' when asked the question I have above about a 2nd referendum. You say 'a vote based on the facts of leaving' is what you require to make some kind of informed decision going forward. I and those of us who voted Leave would give this idea a lot more credit and leeway if the whining alley-cats that comprise Remoan would at least wait until we have actually left the EU before demanding a vote based on such requisites. Otherwise a vote based on these precepts wouldn't happen, isn't that incredibly obvious to those of even minor intellect?

 

You have to try something for a while before knowing what 'the facts of that circumstance' actually are, anything that comes before is called (politely) conjecture or more correctly - total bloody guesswork. 

What a nonsense. Typical gutless Remoaner rubbish.

 

 

 

The post about Sunderland Brexiters went over most heads, sorry to say

 

I was trying to illustrate the point that the synaptically challenged STILL do not understand the issue!

 

We really need to revise the criteria for having the right to vote. Why should my vote count the same as people who know nothing. At all!! About anything!!

 

I know this sounds anti democratic but democracy assumes everyone has the same access to education and information.

 

These people are committing an act of self harm but they dont see it!

 

This is why we have representative democracy. Our MPs must decide.

 

Next time, be MUCH more careful in who you elect to be your MP.

[Grouse]

Moderators.

 

Why are quote sources now not provided?

 

Speed issues?

 

Makes following discussions and comments harder. The system 3 years ago with nested discussions was superior IMO.

[Grouse]

Incidentally, it is clear to me that Labour cares nothing for the Brexit issue, regardless of how important it is.

 

All they want is power

 

Corbyn is such a charlatan.

 

I hope they NEVER get re-elected as a result....

[melvinmelvin]

 

Moderators.

 

Why are quote sources now not provided?

 

Speed issues?

 

Makes following discussions and comments harder. The system 3 years ago with nested discussions was superior IMO.

thanks

I thought it was only me,

that I accidentally had pressed the wrong button or smth

 

 

[sandyf]

 

"hand back Northern Ireland to the Republic" - not a clear consensus for that.

According to a survey conducted by LucidTalk in October, a clear majority would opt for Northern Ireland to stay in the UK, with 55% in favour of remaining and 33% against.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/northern-ireland/89293/will-ireland-unite-after-brexit

They need the majority in NI to make the call but the actual vote would be open to all Ireland.

 

(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

[sandyf]

 

It should be zero....  There is absolutely no reason for the UK to pay the EU 39 bn at all.

 

Even more ridiculous in view of her leave in name only 'agreement' with the EU!

People that do not pay what they have agreed to pay invariably end up in court, and credit ratings go down the pan.

Do you really think that is how you make your way in the world.

[melvinmelvin]

 

They need the majority in NI to make the call but the actual vote would be open to all Ireland.

 

(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

 

what do the polls say

 

to what extent do people in Ireland want NI to be folded in?

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

They need the majority in NI to make the call but the actual vote would be open to all Ireland.

 

(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

 

what do the polls say

 

to what extent do people in Ireland want NI to be folded in?

 

 

[sandyf]

 

And even Less people voted for remain and they expected 100% of the population to face the cost of EU membership like they have done for the past 45 years

These vast amounts that are claimed to be the cost of EU membership are about a fifth of what gets spent on national debt interest. No doubt you think that brexit will reduce the national debt.

Of course nothing like blowing things out of proportion when it comes to EU paranoia. 

[sandyf]

 

 

what do the polls say

 

to what extent do people in Ireland want NI to be folded in?

 

 

How reliable are polls?

I have a friend from Belfast and he was over here a couple of weeks ago. He says nearly everyone is fed up with brexit and would like the UK to pxxx off. If they can't sort out Stormont what chance for anything else. He accepts that a large percentage of the Unionists would never agree under any circumstances and that is the underlying fear.

[kwilco]

what has the EU ever done for you?