UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Nothing to do with "lefties"

 

I think you mean intellectuals as opposed to, er, the misguided.

Yes, it's strange isn't it, how most intellectuals seem to be on one side of the Brexit debate. Wonder why that is?

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Based on nominal GDP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

You may care to ponder this...

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html

 

or this

 

http://www.oecd.org/social/inequality.htm#income

 

whatdo you infer about Brexit and Trump? That's right, inequality is the main driver

Edited September 16, 2018 by Grouse

[evadgib]

Remainer hypocrisy explained...

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by evadgib

[evadgib]

More...

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by evadgib

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

 

Aren't they just! ?

 

(They also don't do irony)

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You may care to ponder this...

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html

I've seen that list before. It shows that among the wealthy nations of the EU, the UK comes in last in income inequality.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

 

There is nothing wrong with our democratic system

 

It's clearly the education system that is lacking ?

 

What ever gave you the idea that the majority are automatically correct? 

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I've seen that list before. It shows that among the wealthy nations of the EU, the UK comes in last in income inequality.

And that is the root of the problem!

 

USA is even worse...

[rixalex]

I think you're right. A "no deal" scenario will be avoided even if it means egg on TM's face. Time for reflection and then an informed People's vote should put the whole fiasco to bed.

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So another vote is going to put it all to bed is it?! Assuming the vote goes the way you want it to, why on earth do you think that all those naughty little voters who stubbornly refuse to get with the Brussels program, are going to just hold up their hands and say, "fair enough, we lost"? Of course they won't.

You won't be able to argue that democracy means accepting when things don't go your way, because you didn't, and nor will you be able to argue that leaving the EU has proven unsuccessful, because there won't be any actual evidence since we will have never actually left to find that out.

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[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

And that is the root of the problem!

 

USA is even worse...

I believe that the UK is catching up though. The Tories seemed determined to emulate the policies of the American right including magic tax cuts for the wealthy.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

So another vote is going to put it all to bed is it?! Assuming the vote goes the way you want it to, why on earth do you think that all those naughty little voters who stubbornly refuse to get with the Brussels program, are going to just hold up their hands and say, "fair enough, we lost"? Of course they won't.

You won't be able to argue that democracy means accepting when things don't go your way, because you didn't, and nor will you be able to argue that leaving the EU has proven unsuccessful, because there won't be any actual evidence since we will have never actually left to find that out.

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We're just going to tear up everything to do with Brexit, walk off and forget it. Ridiculous idea.

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We're just going to tear up everything to do with Brexit, walk off and forget it. Ridiculous idea.

Good idea !

 

[bristolboy]

4 minutes ago, rixalex said:

So another vote is going to put it all to bed is it?! Assuming the vote goes the way you want it to, why on earth do you think that all those naughty little voters who stubbornly refuse to get with the Brussels program, are going to just hold up their hands and say, "fair enough, we lost"? Of course they won't.

You won't be able to argue that democracy means accepting when things don't go your way, because you didn't, and nor will you be able to argue that leaving the EU has proven unsuccessful, because there won't be any actual evidence since we will have never actually left to find that out.

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Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

 

Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

 

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

[evadgib]

<deleted post>

Edited September 16, 2018 by evadgib

[evadgib]

27 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What ever gave you the idea that the majority are automatically correct? 

They were until you lost ?

[tebee]

14 minutes ago, rixalex said:

So another vote is going to put it all to bed is it?! Assuming the vote goes the way you want it to, why on earth do you think that all those naughty little voters who stubbornly refuse to get with the Brussels program, are going to just hold up their hands and say, "fair enough, we lost"? Of course they won't.

You won't be able to argue that democracy means accepting when things don't go your way, because you didn't, and nor will you be able to argue that leaving the EU has proven unsuccessful, because there won't be any actual evidence since we will have never actually left to find that out.

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No, but equally, crashing out with a bad or no deal is not going to  put it all to bed either.

 

I don't see any sort of deal on offer that won't wreck the economy. 

 

If we leave and it wrecks the economy  it means people will want to join again probably on a worse deal than we have now.

 

If you want a successful and lasting Brexit  then we need to find a way of leaving that will actually benefit us. 

 

My solution would be to abandon brexit until we can find a way of doing it that works.

 

We need to have some sort of national informed debate on what exactly we want from Brexit as no one seems to be able to agree on this now.

 

 

[tebee]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

They were until you lost ?

There is a majority in the country who support capital punishment. I don't think they are right and so does parliament. 

[rixalex]

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win
 

Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

 

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Seems strange that you would you want to emulate Farage.

Farage on this point suddenly becomes a credible source worth listening to and quoting, does he? And all the high profile remain supporters who said prior to the vote that there would not and should not be a second vote, and that it was a once in a generation decision, we have to ignore what they said then, but listen to them now?

The EU accused Britain of this, but you take cherry picking to a whole new level.

And so we're supposed to believe that you would have been arguing in agreement with Farage had he lost and continued the fight, are we?

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[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Seems strange that you would you want to emulate Farage.

Farage on this point suddenly becomes a credible source worth listening to and quoting, does he? And all the high profile remain supporters who said prior to the vote that there would not and should not be a second vote, and that it was a once in a generation decision, we have to ignore what they said then, but listen to them now?

The EU accused Britain of this, but you take cherry picking to a whole new level.

And so we're supposed to believe that you would have been arguing in agreement with Farage had he lost and continued the fight, are we?

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I actually did a search for Brexit supporters who disagreed with him. Couldn't find any. Is this another one of those supposed cases where what they said somehow never made it into print?

[billd766]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

That is a bit of a distortion Bill, I said "Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill" and that is a fact. Aviation being the most obvious, that along with many other issues, requires an agreement with the EU.

 I agree in principle that it will not come to that, if it does then there will be an extension to Art 50 to keep things moving.

 

The leavers appear to be hung up on negotiation despite the fact they chose that course of action. The EU can only negotiate within the rules of the EU and if the UK asks to breach the rules of the EU then it is a non starter. The UK was perfectly aware of what rules would be applied before they invoked Article 50 but are incapable of sticking to their side of the agreement.

 

Sandy a quote from your post.

 

"The EU can only negotiate within the rules of the EU and if the UK asks to breach the rules of the EU then it is a non starter."

 

In reality the rules are meant for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. IMHO if they absolutely stick to the rules then they are the former, and if they aamend the rules then they are wise men.

 

IMHO I don't think that it will stop. The UK has always traded with many more countries than the 27 of the EU, some of whom did not even exist when the UK joined the EU.

 

I agree that there will be problems that will  have to be sorted out but it is very hard to negotiate with someone who says NO to everything that is offered.

 

The EU don't really want the UK (though they are happy to take our money), so why don't they start to negotiate honestly, or if they don't want to do that just say so and we can all get on with clearing up the mess from both sides?

[bristolboy]

28 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Sandy a quote from your post.

 

"The EU can only negotiate within the rules of the EU and if the UK asks to breach the rules of the EU then it is a non starter."

 

In reality the rules are meant for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. IMHO if they absolutely stick to the rules then they are the former, and if they aamend the rules then they are wise men.

 

IMHO I don't think that it will stop. The UK has always traded with many more countries than the 27 of the EU, some of whom did not even exist when the UK joined the EU.

 

I agree that there will be problems that will  have to be sorted out but it is very hard to negotiate with someone who says NO to everything that is offered.

 

The EU don't really want the UK (though they are happy to take our money), so why don't they start to negotiate honestly, or if they don't want to do that just say so and we can all get on with clearing up the mess from both sides?

There's this odd piece of doublethink from leavers. On the one hand, they want the UK to leave, on the other they don't want the UK to leave because of the money. Bild766 tries ludicrously enough to have it both ways.

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, candide said:

My post was only about CAP.

 

France is the main CAP beneficiary but not a net beneficiary (it contributes more to the CAP budget than it receives). Practically, it means that UK does not subsidise French agriculture (I infer that was your concern). It subsidises agriculture in Poland, Greece, Spain and various East-European countries.

The CAP is not a standalone budget but CAP allocation/expenditure is part of the total EU budget (now about 40%) and as part of that, the French farmers have typically received at least double that of the British farmers.

 

The UK has been the second highest net budget contributor to the EU budget for most of many many years and the third highest on a per capita basis, behind the Netherlands.   

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, tebee said:

That is mostly because France is a much bigger country and has much more farming land.

Yes, I know that. But the populations of both countries are similar. Could this lead to the UK importing lots of expensive French fries, I wonder?

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, tebee said:

Yes, it's strange isn't it, how most intellectuals seem to be on one side of the Brexit debate. Wonder why that is?

I agree. Brexiteers are generally naturally blessed with a full complement of the best of mental and physical attributes.

 

Why? Just call it luck mate.  

[tebee]

24 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, I know that. But the populations of both countries are similar. Could this lead to the UK importing lots of expensive French fries, I wonder?

But CAP payments are mostly based on the area the farmers use, France gets the most CAP simply because it has the most land area under cultivation in the EU.

 

We import about 25% of our food from France

[aright]

38 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I agree. Brexiteers are generally naturally blessed with a full complement of the best of mental and physical attributes.

 

Why? Just call it luck mate.  

Talking about luck it looks like its on for Nov if you are in Patts. You can now saddle the mule but I warn you if the first item is 40 tins of Fray Bentos Steak and Kidney pies the answer is no. Also I will carry anything legal except Grouse. At the Brucie Party (Nice to see you; to see you nice) are you bringing the two Soi 6 girls, the midget and the donkey or am I? 

[candide]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The CAP is not a standalone budget but CAP allocation/expenditure is part of the total EU budget (now about 40%) and as part of that, the French farmers have typically received at least double that of the British farmers.

 

The UK has been the second highest net budget contributor to the EU budget for most of many many years and the third highest on a per capita basis, behind the Netherlands.   

So if you multiply the French contribution to the EU budget by the percentage attributed to the CAP, you get the CAP contribution. Simple primary school type of calculation. France contributes a bit more than it costs, despite being the largest producer in the EU. Actually, it would not need the CAP if allowed to self-subsidise its agriculture.

Edited September 16, 2018 by candide

[nauseus]

59 minutes ago, candide said:

So if you multiply the French contribution to the EU budget by the percentage attributed to the CAP, you get the CAP contribution. Simple primary school type of calculation. France contributes a bit more than it costs, despite being the largest producer in the EU. Actually, it would not need the CAP if allowed to self-subsidise its agriculture.

Er, no. It doesn't work like that. And why do the French farmers require such huge subsidies I wonder? 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Talking about luck it looks like its on for Nov if you are in Patts. You can now saddle the mule but I warn you if the first item is 40 tins of Fray Bentos Steak and Kidney pies the answer is no. Also I will carry anything legal except Grouse. At the Brucie Party (Nice to see you; to see you nice) are you bringing the two Soi 6 girls, the midget and the donkey or am I? 

Ha ha. Corned beef then? Will PM soon. Thanks.

[rixalex]

9 hours ago, bristolboy said:

I actually did a search for Brexit supporters who disagreed with him. Couldn't find any. Is this another one of those supposed cases where what they said somehow never made it into print?

 

What in god's name are you talking about? The internet is full of quotes from remainers prior to the vote saying how it was a one off vote, including videos like the one above that was posted here yesterday.

 

And to repeat the question you ignored, along with my other points, you are seriously trying to suggest that had Farage lost and had he gone on to campaign for a second vote to confirm that we were really staying in the EU, you would have been arguing in agreement with him?