UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[rixalex]

Wouldn’t it have been a great idea to have considered this in the Brexit plans put to the electorate before the referendum.

We are where we are.

Plenty of bad decisions made along the way.

A second vote to potentially cancel out the first vote would likely prove the biggest of them all, as it would set an irreversible precedent.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

 

 

 

Fish n chips is a traditional Belgian dish imported to the U.K. in the aftermath of WW1.

 

Doh!

 

 

 

but the soggy newspaper bit was developed by the UK though

 

[rixalex]

 
 
It already has affected my business - the drop in the £ post referendum has lost me 50-75%  of my UK sales.  I'm a small scale specialist designer and manufacturer, I'm based in France (but buy most of my inputs in $) and pre referendum 60% of my sales were to the UK market. I set up in France as the business would not have been viable in the UK - there I bought 2 houses + a 140 sqm workshop for £50k cash. In the UK I'd be paying £1000  per month to rent something similar and I wouldn't have had the rest of the equity from the UK house to kick start the business.  
 
Now most of the items I sell are in the £20 - 30 range. Post hard Brexit those will be subject to customs duty and Vat + the £7 fee the post office charges to collect them. I'll have to fill out a customs declaration for each thing I post . 
 
And of course there is the minor inconvenience that I have no idea if I'll have any legal right to live and work in France then.  
 
I'm adapting of course, I'm transitioning to selling digital products rather than physical ones and designing items to appeal to the North American market.
 
On a personal level, my Thai stepson, who is a doctor was intending to do his specialist studies in the UK , he has now decided to go to Germany instead as we have no idea if a British qualification will still be recognized in the rest of Europe.
 
Why do I post ? well I'm just hoping to give a few of the older leavers apoplexy and cause them to have heart attacks and so marginally shift the vote when the next referendum comes.  
 
More seriously, it's probably all of the reasons you state, and in particular the fact that I can't believe we have ended up with such stupid and dishonest politicians at Westminster  that we will end up crashing out with no deal. Yet that seems increasingly like the most likely outcome. My personal nightmare is that we leave, it all goes badly, have a GE and we end up with a Corbyn government with Henry 8th powers. 
 
 

So what happens to be the best decision for Britain in your opinion, also happens to be what is best for you, your family and your business. A fortunate coincidence?

Is it at all possible that your own personal circumstances, and what benefits you the most, is what is shaping your view above anything else. Nothing particularly wrong with that - we all have to think of what is best for us to some degree - but it is a bit like a politician voting in favour of something that just happens to push up the price of some shares they hold.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

So what happens to be the best decision for Britain in your opinion, also happens to be what is best for you, your family and your business. A fortunate coincidence?

Is it at all possible that your own personal circumstances, and what benefits you the most, is what is shaping your view above anything else. Nothing particularly wrong with that - we all have to think of what is best for us to some degree - but it is a bit like a politician voting in favour of something that just happens to push up the price of some shares they hold.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

And what is the basis of people’s vote supposed to be?

 

What’s best for Rees-Mogg’s (based in Ireland and betting against the U.K.) hedge fund.

 

 

[nauseus]

32 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

 

 

 

Fish n chips is a traditional Belgian dish imported to the U.K. in the aftermath of WW1.

 

Doh!

 

 

Strange you say that. This article mentions chippies in London and Oldham as far back as 1860.

 

https://www.anglotopia.net/british-identity/british-food/brit-food-brief-history-fish-chips/

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Strange you say that. This article mentions chippies in London and Oldham as far back as 1860.

 

https://www.anglotopia.net/british-identity/british-food/brit-food-brief-history-fish-chips/

 

I’m sure there where Belgians in London back then.

 

Fish n chips are a traditional Belgian dish.

 

Another great import from Europe.

[rixalex]

24 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And what is the basis of people’s vote supposed to be?

 

 

Ideally, what is best for the country as a whole.

 

You might struggle to comprehend this, but there are people who vote for things even though they don't stand to personally gain by what they are voting for.

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Ideally, what is best for the country as a whole.

 

You might struggle to comprehend this, but there are people who vote for things even though they don't stand to personally gain by what they are voting for.

I absolutely get that.

 

But your commend was deriding the idea that people vote on the basis of what is best for them, their family and their business.

[nauseus]

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m sure there where Belgians in London back then.

 

Fish n chips are a traditional Belgian dish.

 

Another great import from Europe.

Yes, there was an embassy, I'm sure. But if you were familiar with Belgium, you would know that the most famous "chip" dish is moules-frites. The Belgians eat frites (chips) with steak and various other bits and pieces too but the fish pairing is neither very common nor traditional. Spuds were first fried in Belgium to replace the fish that could not be caught in the winter.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275320/The-Portugese-gave-fried-fish-Belgians-invented-chips-150-years-ago-East-End-boy-united-create-The-Worlds-Greatest-Double-Act.html 

[vogie]

59 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m sure there where Belgians in London back then.

 

Fish n chips are a traditional Belgian dish.

 

Another great import from Europe.

Maybe you should consider starting a topic on Harry Ramsden. ?

[My Thai Life]

9 hours ago, tebee said:

It already has affected my business.....

Thanks for your reply Tebee, it’s the best post I’ve seen on the entire thread. It’s so much better to hear real life concerns rather than the recycled stuff from the MSM and other media. And yes, I can see you are very exposed to this situation. I hope you get to salvage as much as possible.

 

I’ve said many times that I’m equally happy with a stay or leave vote, but I’ve never really said why. Well the truth is I became disenchanted with the UK and its politics a long time ago. And working in a field that gives me a lot of international opportunity, I chose to take those opportunities, and I’ve been officially non-resident for a very long time. So now I’m insulated from the UK almost completely, apart from the passport!

[bristolboy]

10 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

You're missing the main point, which is about the distortion within the Eurozone due to the German surplus and the fact that currency union without political union is not tenable in the long term, we've seen the cracks already, and they'll get worse.

 

The pseudo-quote that you ascribe to me is not mine.

 

 

Well, whatever you're referring to is certainly not a real quote since there were no quotes in my comment.

[rixalex]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I absolutely get that.

 

But your commend was deriding the idea that people vote on the basis of what is best for them, their family and their business.

I wasn't deriding that at all. I said, we all have to think of what is best for us to some degree.

[bristolboy]

10 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I don't really understand you Tebee. You seem to be a smart guy. And you're definitely less abusive than most of the other remainers.

From a moderator: post #2731:

"An inflammatory post and responses to it have been removed.

 

Thaivisa is an open forum to everyone, and every member regardless of nationality, color, gender etc and is free to comment and participate in any topic they choose, provided they stay within forum rules and ettiquette.

 

Please stay on topic and keep it civil."

[bristolboy]

10 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I've asked other remainers this, but have rarely got a reply. Do you have a personal stake in the outcome? How will it affect you and your business?

 

And you're still trying to establish 2 separate classes of posters on this thread.

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Thanks for your reply Tebee, it’s the best post I’ve seen on the entire thread. It’s so much better to hear real life concerns rather than the recycled stuff from the MSM and other media. And yes, I can see you are very exposed to this situation. I hope you get to salvage as much as possible.

 

I’ve said many times that I’m equally happy with a stay or leave vote, but I’ve never really said why. Well the truth is I became disenchanted with the UK and its politics a long time ago. And working in a field that gives me a lot of international opportunity, I chose to take those opportunities, and I’ve been officially non-resident for a very long time. So now I’m insulated from the UK almost completely, apart from the passport!

It's that damn passport though - it's going to be worth a lot less post-brexit even if it is blue.

 

I'm seriously considering applying for French nationality  if Brexit goes as badly as I think it could. 

 

I've probably worked more years outside the UK than I have in it myself too - only returned at one point because I met a girl there who did not want to leave. Had ten good years before she ripped me off for most of what I owned. Was a freelance computer programer/consultant in a previous life.

 

Current business was supposed to be my downsize and coast the last 15 years until retirement plan with a nice easy job. Brexit hasn't wrecked it, but it's made my life considerably harder than it should have been. There are thousands of small business owners who made plans according to one certainty only to find it replace by uncertainty that is impossible to plan for.  Even if we cancel Brexit now the economy will take a hit for years to come.

[My Thai Life]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

It's that damn passport though - it's going to be worth a lot less post-brexit even if it is blue.

 

Ok, I'll come clean, I've got dual citizenship (actually I did mention this a few hundred posts ago, but a lot gets lost in the kerfuffle). When I say insulated, I really do mean insulated.

 

If you can get French citizenship that would be the way to go, and with your evident investment in France you must be in a good position. I wish you all the best.

[My Thai Life]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

There are thousands of small business owners who made plans according to one certainty only to find it replace by uncertainty that is impossible to plan for. 

Ok, here's a question for you as an experienced SME owner/manager. Farage has often said that UK SMEs that don't  trade with Europe still have to comply with a lot of EU regulations. And he proposes this as a tangible benefit of leaving. I haven't been able to find out what these regulations are, and I'm sure they must vary somewhat from industry to industry.

 

Is he right?

[tebee]

2 hours ago, rixalex said:

So what happens to be the best decision for Britain in your opinion, also happens to be what is best for you, your family and your business. A fortunate coincidence?

Is it at all possible that your own personal circumstances, and what benefits you the most, is what is shaping your view above anything else. Nothing particularly wrong with that - we all have to think of what is best for us to some degree - but it is a bit like a politician voting in favour of something that just happens to push up the price of some shares they hold.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Oh I'll adapt and survive, I've had businesses go bust underneath me 4 times in my life already ( twice my fault and twice circumstances beyond my control) What upsets me about brexit and leavers in particular is it's going to mess up many millions of people's lives and they (and the government) don't seem to care as long as they get their previous brexit, which the young of the county are going to have to spend the next generation reversing.

 

They don't seem to realize that Brexit is a typical case of the upper class - most of the brexiers are ex-Eton and oxbridge - pitching the working class against the middle class ( metropolitan elites)   to get what they, the upper class wants. Sadly people who are being conned will never admit that to themselves until it is too late. 

[CharlieH]

Posts removed, stay on topic please.

[bristolboy]

.

Edited September 18, 2018 by bristolboy

[tebee]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

Ok, here's a question for you as an experienced SME owner/manager. Farage has often said that UK SMEs that don't  trade with Europe still have to comply with a lot of EU regulations. And he proposes this as a tangible benefit of leaving. I haven't been able to find out what these regulations are, and I'm sure they must vary somewhat from industry to industry.

 

Is he right?

Any SME that wants to trade with the EU post brexit is still going comply with those regulations - at considerably more cost though as they will then have to prove they comply, rather than it just being assumed. Presumably they will have to get their goods certified by some EU   based authority.

 

For the others, firstly the cost of complying with EU regs is a sunk cost currently so it's only on an ongoing basis that economies could be found by lowering standards.

 

But although most SME's don't trade with the EU, that's because most SMEs are small local businesses like corner shops, car mechanics and hairdressers, who have a customer footprint of only a few miles radius.   It's hard to see how EU regs negatively affect them now to any great extent. Maybe your local garage will be able to pour their used sump oil down the drain post-Brexit rather than having to pay to have it disposed of properly.   

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

Any SME that wants to trade with the EU post brexit is still going comply with those regulations - at considerably more cost though as they will then have to prove they comply, rather than it just being assumed. Presumably they will have to get their goods certified by some EU   based authority.

 

For the others, firstly the cost of complying with EU regs is a sunk cost currently so it's only on an ongoing basis that economies could be found by lowering standards.

 

But although most SME's don't trade with the EU, that's because most SMEs are small local businesses like corner shops, car mechanics and hairdressers, who have a customer footprint of only a few miles radius.   It's hard to see how EU regs negatively affect them now to any great extent. Maybe your local garage will be able to pour their used sump oil down the drain post-Brexit rather than having to pay to have it disposed of properly.   

And there is the fact that the World Bank ranks the UK as the 7 on ease of doing business.. France ranks 40th. So clearly it's not the EU that's the problem.

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

For the others, firstly the cost of complying with EU regs is a sunk cost currently so it's only on an ongoing basis that economies could be found by lowering standards.

Thanks for your reply. 

 

A sunk cost is still something that has to paid for though, and when the activity becomes unnecessary (eg by removing the regulatory obligation) its resources can be redeployed more productively.

 

I would also question that moving away from EU regulations necessarily means reducing standards. This seems to be an inherently political statement rather than an operational one. And here we are again talking in abstract terms rather than our own personal experience.

 

Most of my own experience has been in very large multi-nationals on international projects; I'm a poster boy for globalisation lol.

 

Anyway, thanks for your replies. This forum is beginning to eat into my productive time much more than it should, so I'm not going to be around much in the near future.

 

Wish you all the best with your business and citizenship application, cheers.

 

 

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

.... 

 

A sunk cost is still something that has to paid for though, and when the activity becomes unnecessary (eg by removing the regulatory obligation) its resources can be redeployed more productively.

 

.....

 

Wish you all the best with your business and citizenship application, cheers.

 

 

I disagree slightly -A sunk cost is a cost that has already been incurred and cannot be recovered

 

Source : https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sunkcost.asp

 

Thanks for the good wishes! 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

And there is the fact that the World Bank ranks the UK as the 7 on ease of doing business.. France ranks 40th. So clearly it's not the EU that's the problem.

I should have added that even though France ranks 40, it's still an easy place to do business with according to the World Bank whereas the UK is very easy.

[rixalex]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Oh I'll adapt and survive, I've had businesses go bust underneath me 4 times in my life already ( twice my fault and twice circumstances beyond my control) What upsets me about brexit and leavers in particular is it's going to mess up many millions of people's lives and they (and the government) don't seem to care as long as they get their previous brexit, which the young of the county are going to have to spend the next generation reversing.

 

They don't seem to realize that Brexit is a typical case of the upper class - most of the brexiers are ex-Eton and oxbridge - pitching the working class against the middle class ( metropolitan elites)   to get what they, the upper class wants. Sadly people who are being conned will never admit that to themselves until it is too late. 

We're back to stating predictions and speculations as facts, and telling leavers that they don't know what they are voting for, that they are incapable of thinking for themselves, and that you know better than they do.

 

It's this sort of refusal to accept that there IS a valid and rational argument for leaving, and that people arguing in that way, aren't clueless drones being brainwashed by the Eton elite, that they aren't selfish bigots out to mess up other people's lives, but people just like you, who have sat down, looked at the arguments on both sides, and just come to a different conclusion to you, that further builds the divide and increases the perception leavers have of being talked down to and ignored, that resulted in 17 million people voting in the way they did two years ago.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Wouldn’t it have been a great idea to have considered this in the Brexit plans put to the electorate before the referendum.

 

Did you offer that advice to David Cameron when he came up with the referendum plan in the first place? Did you tell him he was wrong to make the vote a simple majority?

 

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing to have?

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

 

 

 

Fish n chips is a traditional Belgian dish imported to the U.K. in the aftermath of WW1.

 

Doh!

 

 

 

Doh indeed.

 

Of course you could have done a simple Google check and come up with this.

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ailbhemalone/absolutely-mouthwatering-facts-about-fish-and-chips

 

1. Fish and chips were first served together as a dish around 1860 - although their origin is contested.

 

Perhaps a little earlier (by some 50 years) than the date that you claim.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_and_chips

 

Fish and chips is a hot dish of English origin consisting of fried battered fish and hot potato chips. It is a common take-away food and an early example of culinary fusion.[1][2] Fish and chips first appeared in the 1860s; by 1910 there were more than 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK, and by the 1930s there were over 35,000.[2] Fish and chips are now a staple takeaway meal in numerous countries, particularly in English-speaking commonwealth countries including Australia and New Zealand.

 

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Fish-Chips/

 

Both Lancashire and London stake a claim to being the first to invent this famous meal – chips were a cheap, staple food of the industrial north whilst fried fish was introduced in London’s East End. In 1839 Charles Dickens referred to a “fried fish warehouse” in his novel, ‘Oliver Twist’.

The populace soon decided that putting fried fish and chips together was a very tasty combination and so was born our national dish of fish and chips!

The first fish and chip shop in the North of England is thought to have opened in Mossely, near Oldham, Lancashire, around 1863. Mr Lees sold fish and chips from a wooden hut in the market and later he transferred the business to a permanent shop across the road which had the following inscription in the window, “This is the first fish and chip shop in the world”.

However in London, it is said that Joseph Malin opened a fish and chip shop in Cleveland Street within the sound of Bow Bells in 1860.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2016/06/03/24-surprising-facts-about-fish-and-chips-and-how-they-helped-beat-nazis-5918974/

 

1) Fish and chips were first served together as a dish around 1860 – although their origin is contested. In London, the Malin family claims to be first, as do the Lee family in Manchester

 

7) There are currently approximately 10,500 specialist fish and chip shops in the UK ? The longest running fish and chip shop still in operation is based in Yeadon near Leeds. The shop trades under the name ‘The Oldest Fish & Chip Shop in the World’. It is believed that fish and chips have been served from the premises continually since 1865 9) There is a long tradition of funny chip shop names – our favourites are The Cod’s Scallops and mobile fish and chip shop Star Chip Enterprise 10) Fish and chips appear in Charles Dickens’ ‘A Tale Of Two Cities’

 

Doh indeed.

 

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, rixalex said:

other people's lives, but people just like you, who have sat down, looked at the arguments on both sides, and just come to a different conclusion to

 

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

Doh indeed.

 

Of course you could have done a simple Google check and come up with this.

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ailbhemalone/absolutely-mouthwatering-facts-about-fish-and-chips

 

1. Fish and chips were first served together as a dish around 1860 - although their origin is contested.

 

Perhaps a little earlier (by some 50 years) than the date that you claim.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_and_chips

 

Fish and chips is a hot dish of English origin consisting of fried battered fish and hot potato chips. It is a common take-away food and an early example of culinary fusion.[1][2] Fish and chips first appeared in the 1860s; by 1910 there were more than 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK, and by the 1930s there were over 35,000.[2] Fish and chips are now a staple takeaway meal in numerous countries, particularly in English-speaking commonwealth countries including Australia and New Zealand.

 

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Fish-Chips/

 

Both Lancashire and London stake a claim to being the first to invent this famous meal – chips were a cheap, staple food of the industrial north whilst fried fish was introduced in London’s East End. In 1839 Charles Dickens referred to a “fried fish warehouse” in his novel, ‘Oliver Twist’.

The populace soon decided that putting fried fish and chips together was a very tasty combination and so was born our national dish of fish and chips!

The first fish and chip shop in the North of England is thought to have opened in Mossely, near Oldham, Lancashire, around 1863. Mr Lees sold fish and chips from a wooden hut in the market and later he transferred the business to a permanent shop across the road which had the following inscription in the window, “This is the first fish and chip shop in the world”.

However in London, it is said that Joseph Malin opened a fish and chip shop in Cleveland Street within the sound of Bow Bells in 1860.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2016/06/03/24-surprising-facts-about-fish-and-chips-and-how-they-helped-beat-nazis-5918974/

 

1) Fish and chips were first served together as a dish around 1860 – although their origin is contested. In London, the Malin family claims to be first, as do the Lee family in Manchester

 

7) There are currently approximately 10,500 specialist fish and chip shops in the UK ? The longest running fish and chip shop still in operation is based in Yeadon near Leeds. The shop trades under the name ‘The Oldest Fish & Chip Shop in the World’. It is believed that fish and chips have been served from the premises continually since 1865 9) There is a long tradition of funny chip shop names – our favourites are The Cod’s Scallops and mobile fish and chip shop Star Chip Enterprise 10) Fish and chips appear in Charles Dickens’ ‘A Tale Of Two Cities’

 

Doh indeed.

 

 

I knew there was something fishy going on.

Edited September 18, 2018 by nauseus
top quote there in error - sorry