mogandave Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 My family keeps saying to me "why do you keep traveling all over the world, you need to see America First"... Problem is only places I have left I wouldnt want to go to. Like whats to do in Iowa? But agreed with your post, its doubleplusgood Corn-fed county girls... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badischer Barde Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, mogandave said: You guys crack me up. What percentage of CEOs in the US make over $1M year? If only they were poorer you’d be happier. looks like you're missing the point. Isn't that hard, really: People do not necessarily get what they deserve. The ones at the top can and will usually take much more, the ones without power will get the crumbs. Yes, of course if the rich would get less, the rest would get more. This is economics 101: Earnings minus rent, interest, purchases and salaries = profits. So if the salaries would not have stagnated over the last 15 years, the profits would not have skyrocketed. And of course those profits get reinvested, usually not for the good of mankind, but lets say in the purchase and drybleeding of the next company, so even more people lose their jobs or at the least have to live with lower income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyezhov Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 15 minutes ago, badischer Barde said: In Germany we have a saying: "You just wasted a great opportunity to shut up." If you have no idea what you're talking about, don't talk about it. In Capitalism the strong take what they want (like a CEO that decreases the market value of his company by 30% due to a bad merger nd still gets 30 million in boni), and the week earn enough to stay alive, but not remotely what they actually contribute. Bcs thanks to the increasing productivity there will always be more workers than jobs, so no need to pay them more than necessary. Same in Europe. We're not the US here, but still moved far towards a neoliberal capitalist system with little taxes for the rich, strongly growing profits, and stagnating real salaries for the vast majority of citizens. Maybe it's a good idea to stop getting your "knowledge" from Breitbart and FOX... Im not familiar with that expression, my German is atrocious because I am a fat, overly tipping, ignorant, deplorable American.....do you say in that phrase den Munde stopfen or Klappe Halten....? Regardless, in capitalism, you are correct, the "strong" take more than the weak. The strong hustling waitress makes more than the lazy one. The strong gal that shelled out for 8 years of college to be a financial analyst makes more than the HS drop out convicted felon janitor. Socialism is all about jealousy. Even their tactics are trasnparent. Like in schools giving prizes to folks who just show up instead of winning. Unfortunately for you, Foxnews.com is only part of my daily reading...like der Speigel. And...the Guardian (which is primarily for amusement, like CNN) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 looks like you're missing the point. Isn't that hard, really: People do not necessarily get what they deserve. The ones at the top can and will usually take much more, the ones without power will get the crumbs. Yes, of course if the rich would get less, the rest would get more. This is economics 101: Earnings minus rent, interest, purchases and salaries = profits. So if the salaries would not have stagnated over the last 15 years, the profits would not have skyrocketed. And of course those profits get reinvested, usually not for the good of mankind, but lets say in the purchase and drybleeding of the next company, so even more people lose their jobs or at the least have to live with lower income. People do not necessarily get what they deserve. I agree with this completely. I think honest, hard working people should make more than slackers. I assume you think everyone should make the same thing, correct? You certainly feel that way about waitstaff. What about bus drivers, all the same? Welders? Doctors? Mechanics? Ball-players? Movie stars? All the same, regardless of the value they bring, correct? Your “Economics 101” was much different than mine. I don’t remember a zero-sum economy, that must be a socialist thing. Your position is that if you cut CEO pay, the margin would automatically go up, that is just not true. If that were true, the board of directors would just eliminate the position. The bulk of Fortune 500 compensation is performance based. The better the company does, the better the CEO (and most everyone) does. Do you really think they would work as hard for a flat salary? That said, I think there is a big problem with the current compensation scheme, in the it is short-sited and puts far too much focus on quarterly numbers. I just don’t know how it can be changed that would be an improvement. I certainly don’t think heavy-handed government regulations will help. Incidentally, average full-time CEO pay in the US is about $125K year. Of course listening to the news they all make over a $100M So is it your position is that companies should not be allowed to merge or automate? It’s my position that companies need to be competitive to be successful, and it’s been my experience, that the more successful they are, the better everyone does. The company I worked for was taken over by a Fortune 50 company. One plant got shut-down (the least profitable) and some administrative heads were cut. It was great for everyone else, including direct labor.No milk from a dead cow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzannegoh Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ks45672 said: We just pay our staff enough to live on without being dependent upon customer's genorisity It works very well, actually They give you the bill and you pay it, simple and easy If there is a 15% service charge it's already included in the total so there is no guesswork involved Would you say that wait staff in Thailand are likewise paid well? If not, then the reason for not tipping here must be different than the reason for not tipping in your uptopia. Edited August 27, 2018 by suzannegoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyezhov Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 23 minutes ago, mogandave said: No milk from a dead cow. Venezuela. The best example of socialism ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyezhov Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, suzannegoh said: Would you say that wait staff in Thailand are likewise paid well? If not, then the reason for not tipping here must be different than the reason for not topping in your uptopia. Interesting that he said "enough to live on". Personally, I know a Valet in Vegas with a million dollar house. Cream always rises to the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ks45672 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, suzannegoh said: Would you say that wait staff in Thailand are likewise paid well? If not, then the reason for not tipping here must be different than the reason for not tipping in your uptopia. They're paid whatever they're worth If the min wage is 300 a day then that's what McDonald's are going to pay them and not one penny more Isn't that the whole point of capitalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Interesting that he said "enough to live on". Personally, I know a Valet in Vegas with a million dollar house. Cream always rises to the top.Not in North Korea. “The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyezhov Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Ks45672 said: They're paid whatever they're worth If the min wage is 300 a day then that's what McDonald's are going to pay them and not one penny more Isn't that the whole point of capitalism? No capitalism is: Poon, this McDonalds job sucks. Yeah Pim, but we have to send money home. Nit told me that a new resteraunt is opening down in falangland. She says its all American and they tip! Ehhhhh? EHHHHHHH? Lets go! Labor is a commodity. Workers go where the money is. Edited August 27, 2018 by Nyezhov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 They're paid whatever they're worth If the min wage is 300 a day then that's what McDonald's are going to pay them and not one penny more Isn't that the whole point of capitalism? No one is working at McDonald’s is working for 300 a day. And no, the point of capitalism is not to pay minimum wage. The point of capitalism is that anyone can open a burger joint and compete with McDonald’s. The whole point of consumerism is to pay as little as possible for goods and services. I wonder how many of anti-capitalism crew squeeze every penny out of every deal they make? Tip a little? No way!Travel Agent? Waste of money!The price of wine going up? Boycott!Pay list price? Don’t be a fool!Support your local store? Order online!Pay sales tax? Ridiculous, order from out-of-stateHire a union plumber? Don’t be crazy, get someone unlicensed, even better if they’re illegal!Again, you guys crack me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ks45672 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 13 minutes ago, mogandave said: No one is working at McDonald’s is working for 300 a day. And no, the point of capitalism is not to pay minimum wage. The point of capitalism is that anyone can open a burger joint and compete with McDonald’s. The whole point of consumerism is to pay as little as possible for goods and services. I wonder how many of anti-capitalism crew squeeze every penny out of every deal they make? Tip a little? No way! Travel Agent? Waste of money! The price of wine going up? Boycott! Pay list price? Don’t be a fool! Support your local store? Order online! Pay sales tax? Ridiculous, order from out-of-state Hire a union plumber? Don’t be crazy, get someone unlicensed, even better if they’re illegal! Again, you guys crack me up. Refrase it to a "free market" if they makes you feel better The only reason people are on the minimum wage is because they have not found a job that will pay them as much as they want to earn A company is liable to make a profit for the shareholders, not share extra revenue with the min wage burger flippers..... And yes, many would rather hire a Mexican /Cambodian/Burmese if they thought they will get away with paying them even less than the minimum wage and no other benefits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ks45672 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 50 minutes ago, Nyezhov said: No capitalism is: Poon, this McDonalds job sucks. Yeah Pim, but we have to send money home. Nit told me that a new resteraunt is opening down in falangland. She says its all American and they tip! Ehhhhh? EHHHHHHH? Lets go! Labor is a commodity. Workers go where the money is. If that were true, all Thai people on min wage would be in USA already.... The reality is, they can only do what's available to them and even the Thai min wage is relatively new and previous bosses were paying many people less, just because they could Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyezhov Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 56 minutes ago, Ks45672 said: If that were true, all Thai people on min wage would be in USA already.... The reality is, they can only do what's available to them and even the Thai min wage is relatively new and previous bosses were paying many people less, just because they could As to the first, thats a straw man. They can only do whats available to them because thats what their economy allows at this time. Put tips in and it will gro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzannegoh Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) While the preceding debate about capitalism vs socialism is interesting, tipping customs don't seem to correlate to that. For instance, Singapore is hyper-capitalist and when tipping is done there it usually is on a small scale. And in the US there are only a few fields in which tipping is the norm, particularly in the food services industry. If tipping were an essentially ingredient of the American version of capitalism, wouldn't we expect that in the US that people would also tip their doctor, their auto mechanic, and their kids' teachers? Edited August 28, 2018 by suzannegoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Refrase it to a "free market" if they makes you feel better The only reason people are on the minimum wage is because they have not found a job that will pay them as much as they want to earn A company is liable to make a profit for the shareholders, not share extra revenue with the min wage burger flippers..... And yes, many would rather hire a Mexican /Cambodian/Burmese if they thought they will get away with paying them even less than the minimum wage and no other benefits No one (not a fool) has “...found a a job that will pay them as much as they want to earn.”Many companies have profit sharing schemes with direct labor. In any event, labor gets theirs off the top. Labor gets paid before the shareholders.Big business generally does not hire illegals, that is usually individuals and small business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ks45672 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 1 minute ago, mogandave said: No one (not a fool) has “...found a a job that will pay them as much as they want to earn.” Many companies have profit sharing schemes with direct labor. In any event, labor gets theirs off the top. Labor gets paid before the shareholders. Big business generally does not hire illegals, that is usually individuals and small business. Just out of interest, Which companies share profits with burger flippers if they have a better than average year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyezhov Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 53 minutes ago, suzannegoh said: While the preceding debate about capitalism vs socialism is interesting, tipping customs don't seem to correlate to that. For instance, Singapore is hyper-capitalist and when tipping is done there it usually is on a small scale. And in the US there are only a few fields in which tipping is the norm, particularly in the food services industry. If tipping were an essentially ingredient of the American version of capitalism, wouldn't we expect that in the US that people would also tip their doctor, their auto mechanic, and their kids' teachers? Au contraire, there is a big correlation and you picked outlandish examples (Doctors? really?) In the USA I tip servers, barbers and bartenders. Used to tip grocery boys, but a lot of places dont allow it anymore. Also tipped mechanics (oil boys) on occasion if they didnt own the shop, and at the car wash of course. You tip the pizza dude and any delivery boy too. I know a Pizza dude that makes an easy 60K a year, most of it cash. We used to tip the mailman at christmas and the paperboy ? I tip the same folks in Thailand. I used to bitch at my gf for ordering grocery delivery for an extra $10, Her response: its good for the economy. Tipping is fuel for the engine. It reinforces the hustle. Todays waitress running 6 tables is tomorrows CEO. Look at that silly stupid socialist girl running for congress in NYC...she was a bartender. Shes got a hustle. Im prejudiced towards capitalism because when I was a young man I did bonus piecework at a penny a pop and I cleaned up. Im inclined to tip because helping those who are working hard keeps the wheels spinning and its the right, Judeo Christian Buddhist thing to do. You dont tip AT ALL under socialism for the following reasons: it renders you an exploiter, or social parasite, or kulak since the upshot is to render all below the nomenklatura nanny stated serfs, unless they can crawl their way up the PC ladder to the ruling class via political means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 While the preceding debate about capitalism vs socialism is interesting, tipping customs don't seem to correlate to that. For instance, Singapore is hyper-capitalist and when tipping is done there it usually is on a small scale. And in the US there are only a few fields in which tipping is the norm, particularly in the food services industry. If tipping were an essentially ingredient of the American version of capitalism, wouldn't we expect that in the US that people would also tip their doctor, their auto mechanic, and their kids' teachers?While all occupations are not tipped, waitstaff is (or was) a perfect example of capitalism/free-market at work. Higher productivity, greater compensation.One can pick and choose their mechanics and doctors, and productive mechanics and doctors generally earn more than non-productive mechanics and doctors, again a good example of capitalism/free-market at work. Parents (that aren’t rich) generally have little or no control over who teaches their kids, and how productive a teacher is usually has little or no impact on their compensation. This is more an example of socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyezhov Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, Ks45672 said: Just out of interest, Which companies share profits with burger flippers if they have a better than average year? McDonalds https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/mcd/sustainability-old/library/best_practices/employee_experience/mcjob_benefits_stories/mcdonalds_usa_profit_sharing_and_savings_plan.html Chik Fil A https://www.glassdoor.com/Benefits/Chick-fil-A-401K-Plan-US-BNFT13_E5873_N1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 If that were true, all Thai people on min wage would be in USA already.... The reality is, they can only do what's available to them and even the Thai min wage is relatively new and previous bosses were paying many people less, just because they couldHow new is the Thai minimum wage?If companies pay as little as possible, why is it so many people earn significantly more than minimum wage?Why don’t companies only pay the minimum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ks45672 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, mogandave said: How new is the Thai minimum wage? If companies pay as little as possible, why is it so many people earn significantly more than minimum wage? Why don’t companies only pay the minimum? Because obviously, some people can can command more than the minimum wage due to their skills, qualifications and experience etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ks45672 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, Nyezhov said: McDonalds https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/mcd/sustainability-old/library/best_practices/employee_experience/mcjob_benefits_stories/mcdonalds_usa_profit_sharing_and_savings_plan.html Chik Fil A https://www.glassdoor.com/Benefits/Chick-fil-A-401K-Plan-US-BNFT13_E5873_N1.htm 401k is irrelevant to non Americans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dallen52 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, mogandave said: How new is the Thai minimum wage? If companies pay as little as possible, why is it so many people earn significantly more than minimum wage? Why don’t companies only pay the minimum? Because even in Thailand there is recognised skill levels used by all larger companies. AA is basic process Labour. AB is process type work with on the job skills applicable to the job. AC is someone who has demonstrated the aptitude to also supervise and possibly has developed specialist skills. Every year they are reviewed and increased according to the PPI. Same the fringe benefits they receive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 401k is irrelevant to non AmericansThey call it a Providence Fund in Thailand, but pretty much the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Because obviously, some people can can command more than the minimum wage due to their skills, qualifications and experience etc Why is it obvious? What makes 8 hour of one person’s life worth more than 8 hours of another’s?Shouldn’t everyone get the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ks45672 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 1 minute ago, mogandave said: They call it a Providence Fund in Thailand, but pretty much the same thing. How many Thai fast food workers are investing in the providence fund then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzannegoh Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ks45672 said: 401k is irrelevant to non Americans A lot of companies have 401k Plans, including McDonalds, but those are not very lucrative. Probably about the most extravagant cases of the lowest level employees getting a big payout was during the tech bubble of the late 90’s. Lucent, for instance, granted every employee worldwide 100 options issued at the IPO price and that included people earning peanuts in Thailand. Their factory workers in Bangkok eventually netted $20 to $25K each out of that, and most of them were smart enough to cash them in as soon as they matured whereas most of the company’s US-based employees got greedy and got nothing for them because they held onto the options until after the company’s stock crashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogandave Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 How many Thai fast food workers are investing in the providence fund then? Of the big multinationals I would bet 80%.Why all the focus on fast-food anyway? Are those not generally kid-jobs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ks45672 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, mogandave said: Why is it obvious? What makes 8 hour of one person’s life worth more than 8 hours of another’s? Shouldn’t everyone get the same? No, I don't see any logic in paying your heart surgeon the same than the person who washes my car Perhaps you do..but I don't Edited August 28, 2018 by Ks45672 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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