What is the general rule for tipping?

[mogandave]

No, I don't see any logic in paying your heart surgeon the same than the person who washes my car
 
Perhaps you do..but I don't

So do you see any logic in letting the market decide who earns what?

[suzannegoh]

8 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

So do you see any logic in letting the market decide who earns what?

The type of socialism that most Europeans advocate does not require that everyone earn the same amount but that those that earn more get taxed at a very high rate.

Edited August 28, 2018 by suzannegoh

[Nyezhov]

8 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

The type of socialism that most Europeans advocate does not require that everyone earn the same amount but that those that earn more get taxed at a very high rate.

Until they all have the same amount. Take from me, give to thee

[spidermike007]

On 8/23/2018 at 11:56 AM, Boy Wonder said:

Haha sorry to spoil it for you ? I've been conditioned to tip by being raised in the USA.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

In Thailand I get more gratitude for a 20 baht tip, than I do in the US, for a $30 tip. Usually we leave 20-40 baht. It just does not mean much to us, but it means alot to them. It depends on the meal. Most are thrilled with that, as few Europeans and Thais like to leave a tip. Always nice to tip the maids, as they do not make much. I tip at restaurants unless 10% service is added. Food stalls would never expect a tip, and for you to be offended by them not accepting is just emotional baggage you need to shed quickly. 

[suzannegoh]

3 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Until they all have the same amount. Take from me, give to thee

Compulsory altruism. Its coming to America too, just give it a couple of more election cycles.

Edited August 28, 2018 by suzannegoh

[mogandave]

The type of socialism that most Europeans advocate does not require that everyone earn the same amount but that those that earn more get taxed at a very high rate.

Yes, the tax recipients in the US are all about that too...

[mogandave]

Compulsory altruism. Its coming to America too, just give it a couple of more election cycles.

It is coming, no doubt.

[Nyezhov]

10 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

Compulsory altruism. Its coming to America too, just give it a couple of more election cycles.

Ill be gone by then 555.  

 

The rules of history:

 

1. People want to keep what is theirs. 

2. People get pissed off when other folks want to take whats theirs.

3. Revolutions eat their own.

[badischer Barde]

20 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Im not familiar with that expression, my German is atrocious because I am a fat, overly tipping, ignorant, deplorable American.....do you say in that phrase den Munde stopfen or Klappe Halten....?

"schweigen" would be the most common. "Den Mund stopfen" would be utterly wrong, as it means making someone shut up, rather than keeping quiet.

 

20 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Regardless, in capitalism, you are correct, the "strong" take more than the weak. The  strong hustling waitress makes more than the lazy one. The strong gal that shelled out for 8 years of college to be a financial analyst makes more than the HS drop out convicted felon janitor. 

 

Socialism is all about jealousy. Even their tactics are trasnparent. Like in schools giving prizes to folks who just show up instead of winning.

Ok, I had my doubts, but can see now that you are an US-citizen. Nowhere else in the world people have such a lopsided view of capitalism and socialism. I'm pretty sure thats kind of an religion for you, bcs only religion allows to subscribe to a story, and then methodically ignoring everything that would contradict this story, rather than, you know, adapting your theories to what is observed.

 

Do you actually believe, that someone inheriting 100 Million, thus getting a lot of money for just the great achievement of being born to rich parents, actually deserves to have more than 1000 times as much as.. let's say a hard working engineer, surgeon or fireman?

 

What about the CEO that actively lowered the market value of his company?

The banker that lost many Millions of his investors?

The guy offering free to play mobile phone games for children, "build your own zoo", and later extorts money for a virtual vet bcs "all your animals got sick and are going to die"

 

And no, socialism is not about giving prizes for showing up. That's more an american idea of spoiling kids and giving them confidence. It's about having equal chances. No matter if your parents are rich or poor, you should have the chance to go to schools of good quality, and to university later on if you're smart and hard working enough.

Of course if you study medicine or engineering you should make more money than someone who just studied English or German literature. Otherwise we'd soon be drowning in people studying the easiest subject available.

 

And yes, somebody who did not study at all should make even less.

 

But everybody should have the same chance to study. Preferrably without working three years to save up for it, and without being forced to work more than a day or so per week during their studies.

Which was the case for me, probably for you, but unfortunately not for Thai people from poor families.

 

So no, socialism, at least the real one, not the obscure fantasy that many US-citizens have, is about equal *chances* and fair taxes.

 

I mean, if you're all about hard work and performance, tell me: Why is effordless income from inheritance and capital gain taxed lower than income from work in all capitalist countries? Yours and mine? Bcs capitalism is a ystem for the well educated and hard working?

Or.. maybe for the very rich?

 

 

21 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Unfortunately for you, Foxnews.com is only part of my daily reading...like der Speigel. And...the Guardian (which is primarily for amusement, like CNN)

And.. what do all this media have in common?

Exactly, they all belong to a few rich families. So instead of just reading the opinion of Rupert Murdoch, you read the one of a few other rich guys, too. That'll make for a pluralistic set of opinions..

I mean.. your so called "liberal media" might, unlike fox news, be happy about gay marriage and feminism, but about economics they are essentially the same, as they all belong to the kind of people that profit from neoliberal politics and economics: The rich.

[badischer Barde]

20 hours ago, mogandave said:

I assume you think everyone should make the same thing, correct? You certainly feel that way about waitstaff.

you assume wrong. Not surprising, as US-citizens seem to be told from very young age that everything but capitalism means making everyone equal. No, see post above.

But I think that nobody who works for 40 to 60 hours a day should make so little money that they cannot afford to improve their situation by getting better education or starting a business of their own.

 

And of course i tip more for good service. But I do understand it when people that work for barely enough to stay alive, and are already at it for 8 or 9 hours, might not always have the most sunny of dispositions, so yes, I tend to tip service personal even if they are a bit grumpy.

 

And since i have my coffee everywhere but Starbucks i save enough money with breakfast alone to keep tipping through the whole day ?

 

 

20 hours ago, mogandave said:

Your “Economics 101” was much different than mine. I don’t remember a zero-sum economy, that must be a socialist thing. Your position is that if you cut CEO pay, the margin would automatically go up, that is just not true. If that were true, the board of directors would just eliminate the position. The bulk of Fortune 500 compensation is performance based. The better the company does, the better the CEO (and most everyone) does. Do you really think they would work as hard for a flat salary?

No, I think your confusing things here... Leaving Taxes out, this is trivial: A company sells their products and services for an amount of money A. From this they pay rent and interest, how much is usually contractually fixed.

They pay for material, goods and services from other company. How much is usually defined by the market.

They pay salaries for their staff.

And the rest is profit.

 

It's as simple as that. Now it used to be that way... the residual is profit. At least in the EU and before around 1998.

Then the investors started to demand higher profits. And since rent and interest were defined in contracts, and raw materials by the market, salaries slowly became residual. That's the reason why the salaries stagnated, while the profits skyrocketed. A giant redistribution of wealth from the working people to the rich.

So..  no, not a socialist thing, but basic economics.

 

And.. do yourself a favour and crosscheck boni to δ market value, you'll see that they do claim their boni are performance based, but in reality they often do get them even when the companies market value severely drops.

[badischer Barde]

20 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Cream always rises to the top

Yes... like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Treviño Morales, Al Capone, Caligula, Nero...

 

or..

 

history - and everything else - is written by those on the top, making them "the cream" by default.

 

But yes.. you keep believing in your mystical lactose-infused alchemy, I stick with having a critical eye on people who have more money than honest men can earn with honest work..

[badischer Barde]

9 hours ago, suzannegoh said:

The type of socialism that most Europeans advocate does not require that everyone earn the same amount but that those that earn more get taxed at a very high rate.

Yes and no. The left wing people are not a homogenous mass. Some think that way, but most, like me, believe that we need much higher taxes on effordless income like inheritage and capital income, higher taxes on very high income from work (1 million+), slightly higher or slightly lower (depending on who you ask) tax on high income (100.000 and above), and lower tax on everything below that.

 

Bcs in my experience, the people who actually drive the development, the scientists and engineers, that spent many years studying without earning anything, and that now are responsible for 95% of all new developments, are earning between 20.000 and 120.000 €, and those should be encouraged. So having people who design autonomous cars or new cancer drugs for 60k pay the same taxe rate as people making 400.000 for *telling* other people to design autonomous cars or new cancer drugs doesn't seem the smartest thing to do. Not to mention unfair..

That, btw is the region that hard work and intelligence can get you to. 20k to 120k. For everything above connections, sociopathy, luck and charisma (or maybe manipulation skills) are disproportionally more helpful.

 

But most importantly, we need a tax on great wealth. And don't kid yourself. That does very likely not concern you. Great wealth is not the million or two you might have, in addition to a second and third house you can rent out. Great wealth is the one billion or more that 150 germans own. Maybe the 50+ million that another 20.000 Germans have. (For the US, multiply by 5 or so..)

[JimmyJ]

On 8/23/2018 at 8:43 PM, Nyezhov said:

In the USA I tip pursuant to the informal rules of tipping. It's good for the economy.

 

I am blessed that I was chosen to be born in the USA, the richest country in history. I don't need much money to make me happy. I realize that in my scheme of life, 20 baht makes no difference to me, but a hell of a difference to him or her that gets it.

 

I am reminded that in 2014 I think it was I used to tip the old lady apartment maids 100b a week. They bought their lunch with that. I used to come back to my digs to find my laundry done, a flower on the bed....I got sick once and they were the ones who took care of me...One time after doing this for a few weeks, there was a knock 9n the door and all three of them were there waiing and bringing me fruit...

 

The security guys......a bottle of beer here and there, a Coke, a pack of smokes......guess who is always greeted with a smile, guess who gets the pool chair cleaned up, guess who gets helped to his room when FUBARed from a night out......

 

I don't give to beggers, nor bums. While I realize that many folks here are are jaded, I generally find that ordinary Thai working folk don't make a lot of money and they are nice and helpful. Help me out...I can afford the nickel......

 

My motto: Smile, have fun, thank you.....

 

 

Starving people reduced to begging for money so they can stay alive.

 

And what is a "bum" but likewise an impecunious person.

 

And you are proud of the fact that you pass them by and let them starve?

 

Incidentally the USA - "the richest country in history" - has massive numbers of people going hungry.

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by JimmyJ

[badischer Barde]

9 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Until they all have the same amount. Take from me, give to thee

Hahaha, yes, that is the problem of.. I'm not even a socialist, but hope to one day get something resembling a social market economy. A lot of people think they are rich, and fight tooth and nail to defend the privilegs of the rich.

 

But as long as you work for the majority of your money, do not make more than 200k€ p.a. or so, you would profit from a social market system that does not privileges the ultra rich and capital income. I already explained how capitalism is a redistribution system from the poor to the rich. Since a social market economy is a good compromise, but not enough to stop this redistribution of wealth (socialism and communism might be enough, but have their own disadvantages) taxes are needed to counter this.

But like I said.. that doesn't mean taking from hard working surgeons and engineers to give to slackers and drug addicts as the ultra rich like to tell you through their private media, but taking from the ultra rich that avoid taxes wherever they can, but demand tax payers money as soon as their profits are at risk (Sub-prime-crisis, anyone?) and give to anyone that is actually working hard for their money.

 

You might have heard that the ultra rich have a significantly lower tax rate than most people working for their money?

Maybe even have read the Princeton Study

 

But yeah... capitalism is great.. if you're Scrooge McDuck or Jeff Bezos

[Nyezhov]

28 minutes ago, badischer Barde said:

Yes... like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Treviño Morales, Al Capone, Caligula, Nero...

 

or..

 

history - and everything else - is written by those on the top, making them "the cream" by default.

 

But yes.. you keep believing in your mystical lactose-infused alchemy, I stick with having a critical eye on people who have more money than honest men can earn with honest work..

Socialists and Criminals 555

 

1 hour ago, badischer Barde said:

Do you actually believe, that someone inheriting 100 Million, thus getting a lot of money for just the great achievement of being born to rich parents, actually deserves to have more than 1000 times as much as.. let's say a hard working engineer, surgeon or fireman?

Life is the luck of the draw. I dont begrudge family money. We can play economics 101and debate Marx et al all day, plus wade through your tiresome ad hominems and o so subtle US bashing, but the bottom line is that, in an economic and very broad sense without digression into the nature of law and whatnot:

 

1. Humans, like any other animal, are biologically aquisitive.

2. Folks don't "deserve" to aquire what they want, they are entitled to aquire what they want.

3. Folks dont "deserve" to take other folks stuff.

 

Im entitled to share my sh**. But you arent entitled to take it. Thats in our lizard brain.

 

All economic and political theories must take that into account, elst it is nothing more than another pathetic attempt to excersize power over the individual. Government is like a business too.

[Nyezhov]

22 minutes ago, badischer Barde said:

Bcs in my experience, the people who actually drive the development, the scientists and engineers, that spent many years studying without earning anything, and that now are responsible for 95% of all new developments, are earning between 20.000 and 120.000 €, and those should be encouraged.

Those are the guys in the USA making a lot more as they found businesses, etc etc etc

 

5 minutes ago, badischer Barde said:

But as long as you work for the majority of your money, do not make more than 200k€ p.a. or so, you would profit from a social market system that does not privileges the ultra rich and capital income.

No. I profit or lose from my own efforts and ask the government to leave me alone and dont take my money in the name of social justice or bigger government. 

[Nyezhov]

19 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

Starving people reduced to begging for money so they can stay alive.

 

And what is a "bum" but likewise an impecunious person.

 

And you are proud of the fact that you pass them by and let them starve?

 

Incidentally the USA - "the richest country in history" - has massive numbers of people going hungry.

 

 

 

Oh stop with the Guardian talking points.

 

 

[badischer Barde]

3 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Socialists and Criminals 555

hahaha..

 

1.  I believe you mean communist, not socialist?
2. So a communist criminal is a communist (or "socialist" in your opinion), and a capitalist criminal is a criminal. I think I see your pattern
    

5 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

1. Humans, like any other animal, are biologically aquisitive.

2. Folks don't "deserve" to aquire what they want, they are entitled to aquire what they want.

3. Folks dont "deserve" to take other folks stuff. 

You do see that most of the aquisition of what people want is exactly that? To take other peoples stuff?

 

What you mean is: You are entitled to aquire what you want, but other people including the goverment have to leave your stuff alone, right?

That's ok, that' pretty much Friedman, Rand, and any neoliberal all over the world, so why wouldn't you?

 

Heh, and believe me, your tired neoliberal rethoric isn't really that exciting either. Just religion refusing to do a reality check once in a while.

[suzannegoh]

6 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Those are the guys in the USA making a lot more as they found businesses, etc etc etc 

 

No. I profit or lose from my own efforts and ask the government to leave me alone and dont take my money in the name of social justice or bigger government. 

His figure of 120 Euros per year might be a little low for a senior engineer at a multinational company but he's not that far off.  One problem with working as a tech specialist within a large organization is that you don't directly affect enough revenue.  Generally the more revenue that flows through your hands the more money you stand to make.

[badischer Barde]

@ Nyezhov

 

Let me try an educated guess: You are a bit older, so grew up in a time where the economy was growing a bit more, and productivity was a bit lower, and everybody with a halfway decent education could get a well paying job.

Now you are retired, or comfortably holed up in the job you had for a very long time, or possibly started your own business with the money and experience you earned during your employment.

But neither did you have to search for a job in the last couple of years, nor do you know many people that did, so you assume it is still like that 20 years later, bcs things don't change.

 

So you're doing reasonably well, and quite naturally this means in your opinion that a system in which you are succesfull can't really be that bad.

It also means you don't have to study and analyze that system, bcs why.

 

That's all fine and dandy, but ignoring the facts that salaries stagnate, profits soar, international companies can avoid so much taxes, and manipulate laws so easily, that it becomes harder and harder for small and medium companies to compete with them. Might not hurt you anymore, but is somewhat annoying for anybody younger, especially those with a good education.

 

[badischer Barde]

10 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

In Thailand I get more gratitude for a 20 baht tip, than I do in the US, for a $30 tip. Usually we leave 20-40 baht. It just does not mean much to us, but it means alot to them. It depends on the meal. Most are thrilled with that, as few Europeans and Thais like to leave a tip. Always nice to tip the maids, as they do not make much. I tip at restaurants unless 10% service is added. Food stalls would never expect a tip, and for you to be offended by them not accepting is just emotional baggage you need to shed quickly. 

Glad to see more people think like that. In my experience most food stalls do accept tips, but maybe that's because there I tip in the form of "keep the change". After all, a well handled food stall can make a turnover of 4k a day, leaving a profit of up to 2k. That's 4 times as much as a waitress makes..

And yes, good point about tipping the cleaning staff. ?

[badischer Barde]

18 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

His figure of 120 Euros per year might be a little low for a senior engineer at a multinational company but he's not that far off.

hmm.. congratulations, 120k is in my experience a very, very nice salary for an engineer. Usually not even a head of department* makes that much, no to mention those following the expert-carreer path. Even at the highest peak the expert-carreer has to offer they will not earn six digits.

Usually you start with 40k, senior engineers maybe 60k, 70k if they are team leaders as well. Plus Boni. In Germany. In China it's worse, most of Europe as well.

Maybe better in the US?

 

*: And it seems that it becomes harder and harder to get promoted for an engineer. Usually they seem to prefer lawyers and economics mayors for anything above team leader nowadays. Understandable, as you do not need much engineering skills once you lead a department..

[Nyezhov]

27 minutes ago, badischer Barde said:

I believe you mean communist, not socialist?

Same same.

https://www.newcriterion.com/blogs/dispatch/socialism-as-a-hate-crime-9746

29 minutes ago, badischer Barde said:

Heh, and believe me, your tired neoliberal rethoric isn't really that exciting either. Just religion refusing to do a reality check once in a while.

Naw dude, its just my observation of life. All same same, as the Who says, "Meet the New Boss, Same as the old Boss"...

 

I just want to live in peace and harmony with myself and the world. I just dont want to be lined up against the wall. Socialism (and religion, historically, same same) kill folks. 

 

Gimme lazy fairy as they say in Arkansas!

[Nyezhov]

25 minutes ago, badischer Barde said:

@ Nyezhov

 

 

 

 

That's all fine and dandy, but ignoring the facts that salaries stagnate, profits soar, international companies can avoid so much taxes, and manipulate laws so easily, that it becomes harder and harder for small and medium companies to compete with them. Might not hurt you anymore, but is somewhat annoying for anybody younger, especially those with a good education.

 

Ive taken my economic hits with the best of them, but rather than try to analyze me, lets stick to the issues at hand. You have your weltanshauung, I have mine.

 

And as to the above, maybe in De Vaterland but we got MAGA in the USA and the capitalist years of  Reagan and Clinton are coming back.

[suzannegoh]

12 minutes ago, badischer Barde said:

hmm.. congratulations, 120k is in my experience a very, very nice salary for an engineer. Usually not even a head of department* makes that much, no to mention those following the expert-carreer path. Even at the highest peak the expert-carreer has to offer they will not earn six digits.

Usually you start with 40k, senior engineers maybe 60k, 70k if they are team leaders as well. Plus Boni. In Germany. In China it's worse, most of Europe as well.

Maybe better in the US?

 

*: And it seems that it becomes harder and harder to get promoted for an engineer. Usually they seem to prefer lawyers and economics mayors for anything above team leader nowadays. Understandable, as you do not need much engineering skills once you lead a department..

Better in some parts of the USA, lots better in Silicon Valley.  I was working at a tech company but not in Silicon Valley and there were a handful of engineers/scientists who would be designated as “Fellows” or “Distinguished Engineers” and be able to pull in up to around $200K without having any supervisory responsibilities.  But a senior engineer who became a senior engineer just by putting in the time would earn much less than that.

[badischer Barde]

5 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

But a senior engineer who became a senior engineer just by putting in the time would earn much less than that.

... is a bit insulting, don't you think? No, unfortunately those are the salarie-ranges with many of german companies. It's worse with many small companies, and of course better if you work for, let's say Porsche. But they reliably have 200+ applicants for each job, so good luck with that.

 

9 minutes ago, suzannegoh said:

Better in some parts of the USA, lots better in Silicon Valley.  I was working at a tech company but not in Silicon Valley and there were a handful of engineers/scientists who would be designated as “Fellows” or “Distinguished Engineers” and be able to pull in up to around $200K without having any supervisory responsibilities. 

Nice. US starting to sound pretty sweet... why "was working"? For a salary like that I'd stick around... no need to worry about accounting, taxes, labour laws and tariffs and whatnot for your own business if you can make a good living with just engineering..

[mogandave]

Incidentally the USA - "the richest country in history" - has massive numbers of people going hungry.

Where are they all hiding?

[badischer Barde]

25 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Same same.

https://www.newcriterion.com/blogs/dispatch/socialism-as-a-hate-crime-9746

oh, that guy is something... confuses socialism with communism, political systems with economical systems, Nazis with communists... but what is to be expected from an alt right guy sitting in foundations dispensing munition manufactureres money to conservative think tanks and fighting minority rights...

Why this guy.. McCarthy and Ayn Rand not in style anymore?

 

May I suggest reading something from Edward S. Herman, Noam Chomsky or Martin Gilens & Benjamin I. Page to get out of your bubble?

(Don't bother asking me to move out of mine, I have the AfD here to butt heads with, they are pretty much the german Trumps, and the cDU, which is Republicans/alt right, they won't let me live in a bubble if i wanted to)

[Ks45672]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Where are they all hiding?
 

 

Detroit, among other places

[badischer Barde]

5 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Where are they all hiding?

Detroit?

 

 

edit: jinx...

Population: 683,443
Median Income: $26,249
Unemployment Rate: 22.1%
Poverty Rate: 39.4%

 

I mean.. this might all be socialist propaganda the government feeds us in the EU, but.. people sleeping in their cars bcs they cant find (or afford) housing?

People without health insurance relying on the charity of free clinics?

Studies that say that the political interests of the poor have no representation whatsoever in government anymore, and those of the middle class still much less than their sheer numbers would suggest in any democratic system...

 

Not sure that's a good sign...

Edited August 28, 2018 by badischer Barde