Israeli troops kill Palestinian, wound more than 200 at Gaza border protest

[metisdead]

Troll posts and the replies about the boy that was killed being targeted have been removed.  As there were more than 200 wounded during this protest, the boy that was killed was most likely what could be classified as collateral damage.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage

 

 

[Jingthing]

I heard this transposition before, i.e. the French don't send  rockets into Spain. Fine! However a small detail is forgotten, which is that the Spanish are not continuously establishing settlements on French land. I assume the French may not react peacefully if they would.

You're confused again. Israel is not establishing settlements in Gaza. In fact they completely withdrew from Gaza many years ago and have no interest in resetting in Gaza.

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[Athens]

This has now been ongoing for 70+ year, no end in sight.....Israel controls Air, see border crossing, Gasa is a prison for unwanted people in Israel.

[Jingthing]

This has now been ongoing for 70+ year, no end in sight.....Israel controls Air, see border crossing, Gasa is a prison for unwanted people in Israel.

Incorrect. There have been numerous changes in the Gaza region since 1948. Also Gaza is not in Israel.

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[candide]

44 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're confused again. Israel is not establishing settlements in Gaza. In fact they completely withdrew from Gaza many years ago and have no interest in resetting in Gaza.

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I am very surprised you did not understand I was talking about Palestinian land, not particularly in Gaza. Up to my knowledge, Palestinians in Gaza don't feel they belong to a different people from Palestinians in the West Bank.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, candide said:

I am very surprised you did not understand I was talking about Palestinian land, not particularly in Gaza. Up to my knowledge, Palestinians in Gaza don't feel they belong to a different people from Palestinians in the West Bank.

The topic is about Gaza.

[candide]

35 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The topic is about Gaza.

Come on!

The topic is about Palestinian people protesting in Gaza. I don't see why addressing the reasons that may lead them to protest would be off-topic.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Come on!

The topic is about Palestinian people protesting in Gaza. I don't see why addressing the reasons that may lead them to protest would be off-topic.

Hamas controls Gaza. It doesn't control the west bank. 

I get it that the Israel demonization agenda likes to simplify a situation that is anything but simple.
 

Quote

 

What's The Difference Between The West Bank and The Gaza Strip?

...

The two territories have had drastically different relationships with Israel and the rest of the world.

 

 

[GinBoy2]

It's very convenient to blame Israel for all the ills of the Palestinians.

But think of it this way.

The Arab Gulf States, including Saudi Arabia could, if they wished, have flooded the West Bank & Gaza with so much aid, they could have far outstripped the wealth of Israel.

Wonder why that hasn't happened????

[dexterm]

9 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The topic is about Gaza.

They are protesting for the right of return of all Palestinians to the lands from which they have been ethnically cleansed.

[dexterm]

There would not be so much "collateral damage" (appalling euphemism) if the IDF did not use live ammuntion.

 

You'd think after 5 months of protests they would have developed better non lethal crowd control methods. Israel has made a whole export industry out of it.

If their "standard operating procedures" include killing and wounding "45 of them with live fire, including a medic.".. then there's something wrong with the IDF's "standard operating procedures" which in most armies and police forces when dealing with civilians mentions things like: last resort, immediate threat to life.

 

And of course the death and use of live ammunition is all atrocious PR for Israel that grabs the headlines achieving exactly the publicity for the cause that Palestinians want. If a few protestors were treated for rubber bullet bruising or tear gas inhallation, we probably would not even have heard of the event.

Edited September 9, 2018 by dexterm

[BestB]

27 minutes ago, dexterm said:

They are protesting for the right of return of all Palestinians to the lands from which they have been ethnically cleansed.

You keep repeating over and over and over ethnically cleansed.

 

maybe you can explain to me how country ethnucally cleanses and yet has a 25% Arab population with parties in the government?

 

how is it that 700 000 Arabs were kicked out from Israel but now over 2 million are citizens and 5 more millon demand the right of return?

[BestB]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

There would not be so much "collateral damage" (appalling euphemism) if the IDF did not use live ammuntion.

 

You'd think after 5 months of protests they would have developed better non lethal crowd control methods. Israel has made a whole export industry out of it.

If their "standard operating procedures" include killing and wounding "45 of them with live fire, including a medic.".. then there's something wrong with the IDF's "standard operating procedures" which in most armies and police forces when dealing with civilians mentions things like: last resort, immediate threat to life.

 

And of course the death and use of live ammunition is all atrocious PR for Israel that grabs the headlines achieving exactly the publicity for the cause that Palestinians want. If a few protestors were treated for rubber bullet or tear gas inhallation, we probably would not even have heard of the event.

You would think after 5 months protesting and not getting anywhere , they would pack up and go get a job instead of burning tires and trying to breach the border???

[dexterm]

11 minutes ago, BestB said:

You keep repeating over and over and over ethnically cleansed.

 

maybe you can explain to me how country ethnucally cleanses and yet has a 25% Arab population with parties in the government?

 

how is it that 700 000 Arabs were kicked out from Israel but now over 2 million are citizens and 5 more millon demand the right of return?

BTW Israeli Palestinian are 20%
Population growth. People make babies.

 

Would love to discuss the events of ethnic cleansing in 47 and 67 in depth with you. But I fear we would be drifting off topic. Another thread another time maybe.

[BestB]

Just now, dexterm said:

BTW Israeli Palestinian are 20%
Population growth. People make babies.

 

Would love to discuss the events of ethnic cleansing in 47 and 67 in depth with you. But I fear we would be drifting off topic. Another thread another time maybe.

I see, so Israel is also responsible for Arabs making babies ?

They so poor and oppressed that all they do is reproduce and Israel should accept and accomodate.

 

love your logic?

 

 

[billd766]

On 9/8/2018 at 10:36 AM, i claudius said:

Stop protesting ,get rid of Hamas ,and go and get a job,do something useful just like Israel did  and build a better country .

 

Easy for you to say. Your country is not blockaded by armed troops, medicine is not rationed nor is food or water.

[ivor bigun]

 
Easy for you to say. Your country is not blockaded by armed troops, medicine is not rationed nor is food or water.

But it might be if we had Hamas running it,constantly attacked our neighbours and fired rockets into their country on a daily basis. Also other Muslim countrys blockade them as they are not wanted there either

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[Jingthing]

 
Easy for you to say. Your country is not blockaded by armed troops, medicine is not rationed nor is food or water.

You fail to mention that Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. Rather they want to destroy Israel and deny Israel's right to exist. The BS that they only want right of return to Israel is code for the very same thing which is the end of Israel.

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[Morch]

17 hours ago, Athens said:

This has now been ongoing for 70+ year, no end in sight.....Israel controls Air, see border crossing, Gasa is a prison for unwanted people in Israel.

 

More nonsense. The blockade isn't on for 70 years. It is a relatively new issue, and it is directly tied to Hamas's agenda and actions. Further the blockade is maintained by Egypt as well. As for "unwanted people" - they are not Israeli, so your comment doesn't even begin to make sense.

[Morch]

17 hours ago, candide said:

I heard this transposition before, i.e. the French don't send  rockets into Spain. Fine! However a small detail is forgotten, which is that the Spanish are not continuously establishing settlements on French land. I assume the French may not react peacefully if they would.

 

16 hours ago, candide said:

I am very surprised you did not understand I was talking about Palestinian land, not particularly in Gaza. Up to my knowledge, Palestinians in Gaza don't feel they belong to a different people from Palestinians in the West Bank.

 

16 hours ago, candide said:

Come on!

The topic is about Palestinian people protesting in Gaza. I don't see why addressing the reasons that may lead them to protest would be off-topic.

 

You keep bringing up the same bogus argument about the Israeli illegal settlements, regardless of context. You keep ignoring or minimizing Hamas' role in maintaining the situation in Gaza.

 

Notably, there are no rockets launched at Israel from the West Bank, despite this being the scene more relevant to the illegal Israeli settlements issue. Not much by way of violent mass protests either. Both are a Gaza thing. To take it a step further, not many such actions taken by Palestinians residing in neighboring Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

 

You cannot seriously address "the reasons that may lead them to protest" while leaving out the Hamas, its misrule of the Gaza Strip, its failing policies vs. Israel, or the political struggle between Palestinian factions. The way you paint it is simplistic and misleading.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, dexterm said:

They are protesting for the right of return of all Palestinians to the lands from which they have been ethnically cleansed.

 

There is no such unconditional right. What you're on about involves accepting Israeli sovereignty and Israel's existence. There is no such willingness expressed by most protestors, or the leadership that eggs them on.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, dexterm said:

There would not be so much "collateral damage" (appalling euphemism) if the IDF did not use live ammuntion.

 

You'd think after 5 months of protests they would have developed better non lethal crowd control methods. Israel has made a whole export industry out of it.

If their "standard operating procedures" include killing and wounding "45 of them with live fire, including a medic.".. then there's something wrong with the IDF's "standard operating procedures" which in most armies and police forces when dealing with civilians mentions things like: last resort, immediate threat to life.

 

And of course the death and use of live ammunition is all atrocious PR for Israel that grabs the headlines achieving exactly the publicity for the cause that Palestinians want. If a few protestors were treated for rubber bullet bruising or tear gas inhallation, we probably would not even have heard of the event.

 

The usual one-sided drivel. As if nothing whatsoever got to do with Hamas. No expectations whatsoever from a Palestinian leadership to act in a responsible manner, or even a reasonable one. Considering the PR value milked by each casualty, there's probably little motivation for them to act in such ways. Indeed, that's pretty much the point of the whole thing - divert attention from Hamas's failure at ruling the Gaza Strip, and its unwillingness to alter its ways.

 

You're still trying to market the Palestinians as a peaceful lot, disregarding the fact that the protests are violent, or  that violent incidents and attacks form the Palestinian side during these protests are routine (if largely unsuccessful). Also, no real answer - ever - out of you, as to the realistic scenario of protestors managing to breach the lines, and the expected aftermath.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, dexterm said:

BTW Israeli Palestinian are 20%
Population growth. People make babies.

 

Would love to discuss the events of ethnic cleansing in 47 and 67 in depth with you. But I fear we would be drifting off topic. Another thread another time maybe.

 

As usual, tossing in some off-topic rubbish comment, then hiding behind the "off-topic" excuse. The point isn't whether Israeli Arabs (or Palestinians...whatever) number 20% or 25% of Israel's population. Lame deflections are all you've got on offer.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Easy for you to say. Your country is not blockaded by armed troops, medicine is not rationed nor is food or water.

 

And that situation is directly related to Hamas agenda and actions. It wasn't the case in the past, and it isn't the case in the West Bank.

[candide]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

 

 

You keep bringing up the same bogus argument about the Israeli illegal settlements, regardless of context. You keep ignoring or minimizing Hamas' role in maintaining the situation in Gaza.

 

Notably, there are no rockets launched at Israel from the West Bank, despite this being the scene more relevant to the illegal Israeli settlements issue. Not much by way of violent mass protests either. Both are a Gaza thing. To take it a step further, not many such actions taken by Palestinians residing in neighboring Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

 

You cannot seriously address "the reasons that may lead them to protest" while leaving out the Hamas, its misrule of the Gaza Strip, its failing policies vs. Israel, or the political struggle between Palestinian factions. The way you paint it is simplistic and misleading.

Not the only reason, as you mention, but not a "bogus" argument either.  The fact that one party takes land from the other party is a fundamental and structural factor.

[BestB]

8 minutes ago, candide said:

Not the only reason, as you mention, but not a "bogus" argument either.  The fact that one party takes land from the other party is a fundamental and structural factor.

Only Israel is not taking land from Gaza. Gazaans are not moving to the west bank and west bank does not hurl burning tires at the borders or check points

Edited September 9, 2018 by BestB

[metisdead]

Some troll posts and the replies have been removed. 

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The usual one-sided drivel. As if nothing whatsoever got to do with Hamas. No expectations whatsoever from a Palestinian leadership to act in a responsible manner, or even a reasonable one. Considering the PR value milked by each casualty, there's probably little motivation for them to act in such ways. Indeed, that's pretty much the point of the whole thing - divert attention from Hamas's failure at ruling the Gaza Strip, and its unwillingness to alter its ways.

 

You're still trying to market the Palestinians as a peaceful lot, disregarding the fact that the protests are violent, or  that violent incidents and attacks form the Palestinian side during these protests are routine (if largely unsuccessful). Also, no real answer - ever - out of you, as to the realistic scenario of protestors managing to breach the lines, and the expected aftermath.

So why do the IDF oblige at every stage with live fire casualties feeding the Palestinian propaganda machine with material?

 

Could be win win. Palestinians make their point about their right of return, and Israel keeps it out of the headlines by using non lethal crowd control methods and not killing protesters.

 

So much for Israeli intelligence.

Edited September 9, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

2 hours ago, candide said:

Not the only reason, as you mention, but not a "bogus" argument either.  The fact that one party takes land from the other party is a fundamental and structural factor.

 

It is most definitely bogus if it's the only factor cited and highlighted. It also fails to address the points made above.

[Morch]

53 minutes ago, dexterm said:

So why do the IDF oblige at every stage with live fire casualties feeding the Palestinian propaganda machine with material?

 

Could be win win. Palestinians make their point about their right of return, and Israel keeps it out of the headlines by using non lethal crowd control methods and not killing protesters.

 

So much for Israeli intelligence.

 

This straw-man is getting worn. There was no claim regarding Israel being smarter and wiser (or even smart and wise) about handling the situation. Then there's the usual "questions" coming up, that's been addressed numerous times. Guess some like to pretend otherwise.

 

And, as usual, Israel is painted as the only side able and required to apply reason and restraint. Not a very flattering implication as far as the Palestinian side goes. Nothing to the effect that the Hamas could have kept the protests away from the fence, and conduct them in a non-violent matter.

 

As far as I understand the Israeli government's take with regard to the expected international criticism was that it's a lost cause. Taking your own routine "contributions" to these topics as an example - there's little difference in tone or lack of substance regardless of actual events. Meaning it's pretty much the same either way. So from this point of view, if there were half as many casualties or a third (etc.) the reaction would have been similar. From my experience the Palestinian propaganda machine doesn't need much to keep going, anyway. Anything will do.

 

Then there's the actual security issue (which you continue to dodge) and that is the realistic risk of protestors staging a mass breach of Israeli lines. Such a scenario would have ended in way more messy way, on both sides. I think the main priority was to avoid such from happening. From a political angle, such a scenario would damage the right-wing government's supposed credibility.

 

Your repeated unsupported nonsense about non-lethal means being a full-proof answer to dealing with the situation at hand was addressed on many past topics. You haven't been able to demonstrate anything concrete on this score.