The good old "losing face" debate

[hellohello123]

So another article popped up about the concept of Asians and losing face

 

It just reminded me of a aquaintance who went to a house auction, and realised the other bidder was also an Asian and was known to them

Turns out the aquantiance bid $50k over their budget just so they could win and not lose face. 

 

Earlier this year I was staying in a 5star hotel in bkk, I needed a metered taxi to the airport. I asked the bell boy to get me one with a meter specifically. One comes eventually and started the excuses. I got out and explained the situation to the bell boy who understood. And ordered me another one, he even spoke to the driver, and once I got in, same excuses. 

 

I got very angry with him as it had already been 15 mins and confronted him, 

He eventually while standing in front of me jst started talking to his colleague while ignoring me. 

 

Seems to me that most Asians use the "losing face excuse to behave badly. 

 

Like those 17 yr old kids years ago in pattaya or phuket that killed the farang that told them to Get off his parked motorbike because apparently they lost face 

 

Like that Asian fine dining restaunrt in my country recently that I tried to pay by card, and the waitress said we don't accept credit card, after I told her that I've been coming there for years and used card everytine, she proceeded to get angry with me and yelled "Credit card surcharge" 

 

Surely if you work in a company and the boss yells at you for making a mistake, you don't just ignore your boss or beat him with a stick,  

Edited September 19, 2018 by hellohello123

[mauGR1]

I have to admit, that till a few years ago, i was not giving a lot of importance to the 'face thing'.

Recently i realised instead that i'm better be aware of it every moment.

While, of course, the 'losing face' issue exists in every culture, it seems to me that in Thailand 'face' is overrated.

I would be curious to hear from people living in neighbouring countries, like Cambodia or Vietnam, or Myanmar, if the people there give the same importance to 'face' as they do in Thailand.

[hellohello123]

In Japan, many people say face doesn't exist or is very minimal compared to western countries. 

 

 

True or not, it still exists I'm sure to a much smaller extent. . 

 

As far as I'm aware, during business merrings which is often done at the fold course, the supplier will deliberately lose to the customer so it doesn't hurt their feelings, so yes I guess you could call this behaviour as face. 

 

In the western country I can imagine the supplier bearing the customer in a game. Of. Golf or a drinking game, 

And then they'd laugh it off and continue as is

[dotpoom]

Why is this subject approached in a manner that it only applies to the Thai people.

  Have you never back home seen fights over the same thing...one person making a "show" of another or making him look stupid. How many Farangs will Never admit that they could possibly have been wrong about something. Older ones with totally "closed" minds.

What about our so called "Leaders"....politicians. Have you ever heard one say, in an interview for example...."You know what ..you have a good point there, I never looked at it that way...now I see that you are correct and I had got it wrong"?

[hellohello123]

Just now, dotpoom said:

Why is this subject approached in a manner that it only applies to the Thai people.

  Have you never back home seen fights over the same thing...one person making a "show" of another or making him look stupid. How many Farangs will Never admit that they could possibly have been wrong about something. Older ones with totally "closed" minds.

What about our so called "Leaders"....politicians. Have you ever heard one say, in an interview for example...."You know what ..you have a good point there, I never looked at it that way...now I see that you are correct and I had got it wrong"?

Because the   asian community  (not all) are the onky group that I'm aware of or experienced that 

1. Use face as an justification 

2. Even mention it in daily life

3. Have a word for it

4. Put a high priority on it

 

[richard_smith237]

Loosing face is nothing more than a simple euphemism for fragile ego...

 

Of course, Loosing face is also common in the West, however, in a society where non-confrontationalism is key to successfully navigating your day, egos become massaged. In a society where fragile egos are so frequently massaged the concept of loosing face is more prevalent.

 

Thailand and many Asian cultures also do tend to massage the fragile egos more so than in Western countries, additionally, since childhood the male ego is massaged more-so than the female and hence the birth of the 'little prince syndrome', the spoilt young boy who can do no wrong.

 

Asians are generally more tolerant than Westerners where folk are more inclined to display a lack of tolerance for 'the silly stuff' thus the 'loss of face' and behavior associated with avoiding it goes unchecked and hence, when face is lost the owner of said fragile ego lacks the emotional tools to handle the situation, sometimes quite spectacularly.... 

[klauskunkel]

It's all they have. And when they lose it, they have to keeelll! 

[Briggsy]

I agree with the Richard's post above (except the spelling of lose).

 

I would add that many foreigners, once they have learnt about the losing face thing, tend to over-ascribe it as a reason for every act that they observe a Thai or an Asian doing. For example, in the hotel bell-boy example above, you can guarantee that a group of taxi drivers had staked out a role for themselves as the taxi drivers for that hotel and they made sure everybody working at the hotel knew it and didn't try to stop it. The bell boy didn't want to tell the customer that the hotel had a parasitic group of taxi driver thugs attached to it and he didn't want to cross the taxi drivers. Taking either route might have ended badly for him. This was nothing to do with "losing face" and everything to do with avoiding a beating and keeping his job.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Briggsy

[mauGR1]

23 minutes ago, dotpoom said:

Why is this subject approached in a manner that it only applies to the Thai people.

  Have you never back home seen fights over the same thing...one person making a "show" of another or making him look stupid. How many Farangs will Never admit that they could possibly have been wrong about something. Older ones with totally "closed" minds.

What about our so called "Leaders"....politicians. Have you ever heard one say, in an interview for example...."You know what ..you have a good point there, I never looked at it that way...now I see that you are correct and I had got it wrong"?

I think you are right to point out that the "face thing" exists in the west and most likely everywhere.

I also don't see it as completely negative.

In my country, for example, it's very bad etiquette to punish your children in front of others, as they might deserve the punishment, but not a public humiliation.

[seancbk]

HelloHello123:  Earlier this year I was staying in a 5star hotel in bkk, I needed a metered taxi to the airport. I asked the bell boy to get me one with a meter specifically. One comes eventually and started the excuses. I got out and explained the situation to the bell boy who understood. And ordered me another one, he even spoke to the driver, and once I got in, same excuses. 

 

I got very angry with him as it had already been 15 mins and confronted him, He eventually while standing in front of me just started talking to his colleague while ignoring me. 

--- end quote -- 

You got very angry with him?    What for?   Is it his fault taxis don't want to use their meter, or that there weren't loads of available taxis?

I would have turned my back on you as well for being rude.


 

[BobbyL]

So you kicked off at a bell boy who's probably paid a pittance because the taxi drivers were refusing the meter?

 

Well played ?

[simoh1490]

5 minutes ago, BobbyL said:

So you kicked off at a bell boy who's probably paid a pittance because the taxi drivers were refusing the meter?

 

Well played ?

....but even after a couple of cabs he still didn't get it, in fact, even now he may still not!

Edited September 20, 2018 by simoh1490

[OJAS]

 

1 hour ago, dotpoom said:

Why is this subject approached in a manner that it only applies to the Thai people.

  Have you never back home seen fights over the same thing...one person making a "show" of another or making him look stupid. How many Farangs will Never admit that they could possibly have been wrong about something. Older ones with totally "closed" minds.

What about our so called "Leaders"....politicians. Have you ever heard one say, in an interview for example...."You know what ..you have a good point there, I never looked at it that way...now I see that you are correct and I had got it wrong"?

 

Indeed, I think that it is nonsensical to suggest that "saving grace" is a purely Thai phenomenon. It is IMHO equally - if not considerably more - prevalent in Western countries in various forms.

[Suradit69]

7 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

While, of course, the 'losing face' issue exists in every culture, it seems to me that in Thailand 'face' is overrated.

You obviously have paid no attention to what's been going on in Washington recently  with the childish tit-for-tat Tweets  responding to a perceived loss of face

 

Quote

One of the worst and most boring political pundits on television is @krauthammer. A totally overrated clown who speaks without knowing facts

 

... or one of the prime motivations that drove Germany to want to dominate the world after they would supposedly win World War 2 

 

Quote

When the Germans heard about the Treaty of Versailles, they felt 'pain and anger'. They felt it was unfair. It was a 'Diktat' – an IMPOSED settlement. They had not been allowed to take part in the talks – they had just been told to sign.

 

Or maybe about the numerous school shootings in the US motivated by hurt feelings or similar mass shootings follow some grievance at a place of work or in personal relationships.

 

 

Quote

 

I will slaughter every single blonde s*** I see': Lonely killer posted chilling video warning of 'retribution' because he was still a virgin at age 22

• Elliot Rodger went on a shooting rampage in Santa Barbara, California
• 22-year-old killed six people and also died of gunshot wound to the head
• He posted a video ranting about how women have rejected his advances

 

 

 

And then of course there are all the loss of face rants by TV posters following some problem with a Thai.

 

On 9/17/2018 at 9:06 PM, bkk321 said:

the other lady with the bad teeth looked so smug and pleased with herself.

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Suradit69

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Briggsy said:

I agree with the Richard's post above (except the spelling of lose).

 

I would add that many foreigners, once they have learnt about the losing face thing, tend to over-ascribe it as a reason for every act that they observe a Thai or an Asian doing. For example, in the hotel bell-boy example above, you can guarantee that a group of taxi drivers had staked out a role for themselves as the taxi drivers for that hotel and they made sure everybody working at the hotel knew it and didn't try to stop it. The bell boy didn't want to tell the customer that the hotel had a parasitic group of taxi driver thugs attached to it and he didn't want to cross the taxi drivers. Taking either route might have ended badly for him. This was nothing to do with "losing face" and everything to do with avoiding a beating and keeping his job.

 

...oh no... thats embarrassing... ?

 

 

I'd agree... there is always a lot more operating under the surface than we are often made aware of, as such we, as Westerners, often push for things which may cause conflict or potential loss of face... someone misses out, someones ego gets dented... 

 

This is quite often because 'something' is allowed to happen which would otherwise be stamped out in the West... but here, its allowed to continue until it becomes the norm and those who continue its practice do so with a sense of entitlement and 'lose face' when someone comes along and attempts to correct the issue... 

 

This commonly happens with Taxi's choosing not to use the Meter, refusing fares, shops and restaurants double pricing, overcharging, scamming etc...  quite often when caught out the default response is 'anger' which can readily be attributed to questioning someones sense of entitlement, implying that they are wrong and leading to the ubiquitous 'loss of face' as an excuse for the consequent tantrum when ones ego has been dented... 

 

 

[Hanaguma]

8 hours ago, hellohello123 said:

In Japan, many people say face doesn't exist or is very minimal compared to western countries. 

 

 

True or not, it still exists I'm sure to a much smaller extent. . 

 

As far as I'm aware, during business merrings which is often done at the fold course, the supplier will deliberately lose to the customer so it doesn't hurt their feelings, so yes I guess you could call this behaviour as face. 

 

In the western country I can imagine the supplier bearing the customer in a game. Of. Golf or a drinking game, 

And then they'd laugh it off and continue as is

In Japan, I'm not sure if it is as much about saving face on a personal level as it is about avoiding embarrassment and maintaining social harmony/cohesion.  It seems rather more passive aggressive in nature in Japan. People spend an awful lot of time worrying about what others think of them, or will think of their actions. So they have developed elaborate social systems and mores that allow them to function without causing offence. Hence the emphasis on politeness over kindness, the use of canned phrases over spontaneity, generally in form over function. 

 

It makes for a peaceful place to live, but can be really frustrating if you don't know the rules. 

[jgarbo]

8 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I have to admit, that till a few years ago, i was not giving a lot of importance to the 'face thing'.

Recently i realised instead that i'm better be aware of it every moment.

While, of course, the 'losing face' issue exists in every culture, it seems to me that in Thailand 'face' is overrated.

I would be curious to hear from people living in neighbouring countries, like Cambodia or Vietnam, or Myanmar, if the people there give the same importance to 'face' as they do in Thailand.

Asian "face" is simply Western "reputation" but the anonymity of Western society reduces the importance of reputation. Try losing face in a small European or English village. You'll understand the importance of it.

[HAKAPALITA]

The Classic must be Sin Sod . The whole Village knows what Girls go selling themself to Ferangs . Yet when they drag one back they say Family Loose Face you not pay to Marry.[emoji85]


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, HAKAPALITA said:

The Classic must be Sin Sod . The whole Village knows what Girls go selling themself to Ferangs . Yet when they drag one back they say Family Loose Face you not pay to Marry.
Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Don't you get the gold and money back?  I did and everybody I know did.  I think saving face is a human trait.  Or is there some nationality that likes to loose?  They do still have the Olympics don't they and the national anthem and stuff?  

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, jgarbo said:

Asian "face" is simply Western "reputation" but the anonymity of Western society reduces the importance of reputation. Try losing face in a small European or English village. You'll understand the importance of it.

Although i understand what you mean, and i've lived in small villages most of my time, 'face' and 'reputation' can have the same meaning sometimes, and sometimes not.

I know people who have a big face, but a bad reputation.

[VBF]

Reading this and other threads on "Face", I can't help thinking that in the West, whilst many people don't like to be made to look stupid (obviously) if one is discreet, one can point out their mistakes in a constructive way without a problem.

 

An example being an employee who does something seriously wrong. The boss can either yell and berate him/her publicly and make them look stupid (lose face), OR can take them to one side and explain the error of their ways. The latter approach will often (not always!) result in increased respect all round.

 

Now in Thailand, I've found that many Thai people regard even a private "telling off" as a loss of face.

I had a TGF who made some odd decisions with things like shopping and arranging trips - I would always tell her quietly and privately that "I think you're wrong, because......."

It took ages before she understood that she could respond and we could discuss the matter without either of us losing face.

 

A hotel receptionist made a big error on my bill - when i pointed it out to her with just the 2 of us present, she took offence - eventually I had to involve a more senior person to get it resolved - I was completely right but the receptionist just wouldn't or couldn't see it. She wouldn't talk to me after that....loss of face, I presume.

 

So is it cultural, the result of the Thai education system....or....or.....??

Edited September 20, 2018 by VBF

[Berkshire]

45 minutes ago, jgarbo said:

Asian "face" is simply Western "reputation" but the anonymity of Western society reduces the importance of reputation. Try losing face in a small European or English village. You'll understand the importance of it.

Quite true.  Making someone "lose face" is exactly the same as "publicly humiliating" someone.  It's something you want to avoid doing, in the west and in Asia.  But in Asia, where people try to maintain harmony by going out of their way to not publicly humiliate someone, a person engaged in such behavior would be looked down upon.  

The thing is, when someone on TV brings up this face thing, the incident they speak of almost always has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of losing face.  The OP is a good example.   

[smutcakes]

Whilst the saving face issue is sometimes a little perplexing, i find it equally perplexing the lack of flexibility of many farangs over here for reportedly years and years yet seemingly completely and utterly unable to understand, adapt or comprehend to a different culture and its mannerisms, especially those who look down on the locals use of 'face'.

[Lucky mike]

Confrontation is to be avoided at all costs it seems !

[1FinickyOne]

9 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I have to admit, that till a few years ago, i was not giving a lot of importance to the 'face thing'.

Recently i realised instead that i'm better be aware of it every moment.

While, of course, the 'losing face' issue exists in every culture, it seems to me that in Thailand 'face' is overrated.

I would be curious to hear from people living in neighbouring countries, like Cambodia or Vietnam, or Myanmar, if the people there give the same importance to 'face' as they do in Thailand.

losing face definitely exists in the West too, just often different stress on issues of importance... When my dad was 85 and spent the day sleeping in his easy chair - - he was awoken by a phone call - - I heard him say, "Oh. I have been very busy." Then after the call went back to sleep in the chair... not being busy would have cost him 'face' 

[mauGR1]

10 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

But in Asia, where people try to maintain harmony by going out of their way to not publicly humiliate someone, a person engaged in such behavior would be looked down upon.  

All seems fair and nice, but would you spare a thought for the victims of the "face" obsession ?

Like patriotism and religious faith, the "face" thing has a dark side when people become obsessed with that.

[marcusarelus]

11 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Quite true.  Making someone "lose face" is exactly the same as "publicly humiliating" someone.  It's something you want to avoid doing, in the west and in Asia.  But in Asia, where people try to maintain harmony by going out of their way to not publicly humiliate someone, a person engaged in such behavior would be looked down upon.  

The thing is, when someone on TV brings up this face thing, the incident they speak of almost always has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of losing face.  The OP is a good example.   

Don't you just hate it when doctors try to kill you and then make up dumb excuses an 8th grader would not believe.  I find this both in Thailand and the West.  I had a lab get a blood test wrong.  I knew it was wrong and told them to take the test again.  I think it was because they shook the test tube.  Almost impossible to make a nurse stop shaking the bloody blood but it alters the test.   

[1FinickyOne]

3 minutes ago, Lucky mike said:

Confrontation is to be avoided at all costs it seems !

sure makes my life more pleasant... even if there is a point of contention to proceed and resolve things peacefully and smiling seems a better approach.

[Berkshire]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

Don't you just hate it when doctors try to kill you and then make up dumb excuses an 8th grader would not believe.  I find this both in Thailand and the West.  I had a lab get a blood test wrong.  I knew it was wrong and told them to take the test again.  I think it was because they shook the test tube.  Almost impossible to make a nurse stop shaking the bloody blood but it alters the test.   

I'm not sure if that's a face thing, or simply people trying to avoid liability.  I see that in the west when prosecutors send the wrong man to jail.  They'll rarely admit that they screwed up. 

[siamcrut]

In Thailand even a pineapple loses face, if it wasn’t eaten before it was ripe.