Thailand re entry problem for long time Thai traveller

[TerrylSky]

Sawaht dee, sorry if this is a repetitive query, but i can't find a remedy. Have 'lived' in Thailand for many years legally with numerous tourist visas and visa on arrivals / extensions etc. (I am from U.S.). In Cambodia now (again) trying to get another tourist visa; I was denied despite the fact I have 2 bank accounts with ample funds, a valid passport/application/photos, a ticket from BKK to Laos in 2 months, and a house.  My attorney and immigration connection suggested Visa on Arrival at BKK, but they are unaware I guess, that U.S. citizens can not do this. In my passport, full of Thai and other world travel visa stamps (but still empty pages) there is the recent tourist visa I applied for -  that was actually 'administered' in my passport - but before it went out the door it was invalidated with a stamp that said 'Void without Prejudice". Let it be known, that I have followed all of the conditions set forth in the Thailand Visa govt. website as  prescribed by law (money, income, exit ticket, place to stay etc., even attorney guarantee) but they still did not grant it.  Any ideas what to do fellow Farangs? Go to Laos and try there? Go back to US? Get another passport in Cambodia? Go to Laos and apply?   Any input is appreciated. Khap khun nakhrap!

[Peterw42]

27 minutes ago, TerrylSky said:

Have 'lived' in Thailand for many years legally with numerous tourist visas and visa on arrivals / extensions etc.

You haven't lived in Thailand legally, you have used short stay visa's, beyond what they are intended for.

You dont mention your age or martial status so not sure if you qualify for any long stay visa's, maybe look into Thailand elite visa's, or an education visa etc. Like immigration, I would question how you are managing to support yourself without working etc. Showing Thai bank accounts or a Thai property wouldn't strengthen your case for tourist visa's, it would more show that you are not a tourist.

Going to another country/consulate would only be a short term solution as they will stop issuing.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Peterw42

[ubonjoe]

I would guess you tourist visa was denied because you had to many tourist visas in your passport. That has happened to others at the Phnom Penh embassy.

Not sure why you think you are not allowed to get a 30 day visa exempt entry ( you do not qualify for a 15 day visa on arrival). What is your recent history of visa exempt entries? You could enter at most land border crossings to Thailand without a problem other than at Poi Pet unless you have already done 2 of them this year by land.already.

Getting a new passport would help for getting more tourist visas since there would be none for a embassy or consulate to see. But it would not erase you history of entries in immigrations database since your old and new passport would be linked the first time you use it for entry.

 

 

[TerrylSky]

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen.

To help clarify, I have been living technically legally in Thailand when I am there. I also travel around the world, return to the U.S. as desired, followed the prescribed law which falls into 'tourist' activities, do not work illegally, am 61 (don't want retirement visa yet). and am single. Previous visa apps have been overseen by my attorney and visa immigration in Mae Said with approval. They  know us - for many years. So, I am legal. As for now, I am attempting to obtain a tourist visa, and according to THAI LAW as prescribed to visa applicants online (which may not mean much to some), I meet the criteria of obtaining a tourist visa, i.e. exit flight, accommodations, monthly income, not working in Thailand, guarantor, cash in the Thai bank, cash in another Thai bank, and cash in an American bank. There is nothing that says you can not have unlimited tourist visas in a year. There is a new law that says you can only do a visa on arrival twice in 12 months (which I've already done of course).  Thanks for your comments.

[wpcoe]

7 minutes ago, TerrylSky said:

... am 61 (don't want retirement visa yet).

May I ask what the "down side" to doing a retirement visa or retirement extension would be?  I'm wondering why you don't want to avail yourself of that option.

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, TerrylSky said:

There is a new law that says you can only do a visa on arrival twice in 12 months (which I've already done of course).

As I wrote you do not get visa on arrivals the proper name is a visa exempt entry. A visa on arrival is only for 15 days after applying for it and paying 2000 baht fee for it.

The 2 visa exempt entries per calendar year is only for those done at land border crossings. By air there is no written limit.

 

8 minutes ago, TerrylSky said:

As for now, I am attempting to obtain a tourist visa, and according to THAI LAW as prescribed to visa applicants online (which may not mean much to some), I meet the criteria of obtaining a tourist visa

It is not really written in a law. It is a policy and or a ministerial regulation. The immigration act is the only law and it does not set the requirements.

As far as meeting the requirements for a tourist visa there is this shown on the Phnom Penh website and most others.

Quote

8.      Other documents: as may be requested by Consular officers in addition to the documents above. Please note that Consular officers reserve the right to require additional documents, or an interview with the applicant, as deemed necessary, without prior notice. The Royal Thai Embassy reserves the right not to accept any visa application whereby any required document is absent. If the above procedures are not completed, the official will not proceed with your application. **The Royal Thai Embassy reserves the right to reject any visa application with insufficient documents or if the reasons given are not fully supported. The visa fee is non-refundable**

Source: http://www.thaiembassy.org/phnompenh/en/services/7962/86336-Tourist-Visa.html

[phuketrichard]

You own a house, have bank accounts, traveling in and out many years on tourists visas and visa exempts and are claiming ur a tourist?  Do you list your own house ( rather than a hotel) as where ur staying?

 

as stated above, a visa EXEMPT stamp is not the same as a Visa on arrival, (like Indians and some others  can get)

PP will give 3 tourists visas, (sometimes 4 under special circumstances) ONLY,

try Laos

 

[BritTim]

Until recently, I would have told you that traveling to Savannakhet in Laos would guarantee you could get a tourist visa, and return by land without any difficulty. However, there was one report  a week or so ago (the first I can remember) of someone being denied a tourist visa in Savannakhet. That is still what I would recommend you try.

[jackdd]

Get a multiple entry visa from your home country, then you are covered for the next 9 months

[TerrylSky]

 

Wpoce, With a retirement visa there is the issue of substantial money in the bank and/or hefty monthly income (3k US?), plus as I frequently travel in my own right, I don't want to be in Thailand for a full year anyway.  Thanks.

[chappie1207]

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The 2 visa exempt entries per calendar year is only for those done at land border crossings. By air there is no written limit.

I have found this regarding air travel into Thailand:

http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/new-visa-rules.php

"Those who arrive at the airport without a prior visa will continue to receive a 30-day stamp up to 6 times per calendar year."

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by chappie1207

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, TerrylSky said:

Wpoce, With a retirement visa there is the issue of substantial money in the bank and/or hefty monthly income (3k US?), plus as I frequently travel in my own right, I don't want to be in Thailand for a full year anyway.  Thanks.

It is 800k baht (approx $25k) in the bank or 65k baht (approx $2050 ) income.

You do not stay here for the entire year. You can get a multiple re-entry permit that would allow you to travel as much as want to. You would only have to be here to apply for a new extension.

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, chappie1207 said:

"Those who arrive at the airport without a prior visa will continue to receive a 30-day stamp up to 6 times per calendar year."

Incorrect info from a unofficial website set up by a law firm.

From the bottom of that page. "This is NOT the official website of the Thai Embassy"

[chappie1207]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Incorrect info from a unofficial website set up by a law firm.

From the bottom of that page. "This is NOT the official website of the Thai Embassy"

Ah okay that's good to know...

 

Q: if a person flies into Thailand, stays for a few weeks (is retired, has enough money to support self, doesn't work, doesn't want retirement visa etc), flies out to another country for a couple of weeks then flies back to Thailand to repeat (doesn't do land border crossings or extensions at immigration), how many times, theoretically, could that person do this before immigration at the airport start questioning frequency of visits?

[jackdd]

13 minutes ago, chappie1207 said:

Q: if a person flies into Thailand, stays for a few weeks (is retired, has enough money to support self, doesn't work, doesn't want retirement visa etc), flies out to another country for a couple of weeks then flies back to Thailand to repeat (doesn't do land border crossings or extensions at immigration), how many times, theoretically, could that person do this before immigration at the airport start questioning frequency of visits?

Some factors like your nationality, your look etc. might influence it, but in general there is no certain answer to this question. You might be questioned after you do it the third time, or you might do it for 3 years and never get questioned.

[Arkady]

If you don't want a retirement extension, you could buy an Elite Card or invest B10m in a condo and get an investment visa. The retirement extension seems the least financially burdensome option and would allow you to spend as much time in country as you like.  Annual extension is a bit of a hassle but seems better than risking being denied entry.

[jgarbo]

8 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

You haven't lived in Thailand legally, you have used short stay visa's, beyond what they are intended for.

You dont mention your age or martial status so not sure if you qualify for any long stay visa's, maybe look into Thailand elite visa's, or an education visa etc. Like immigration, I would question how you are managing to support yourself without working etc. Showing Thai bank accounts or a Thai property wouldn't strengthen your case for tourist visa's, it would more show that you are not a tourist.

Going to another country/consulate would only be a short term solution as they will stop issuing.

Correct. You don't "live" in a country, unless unless you pay rent or maintenance fees, argue with your neighbors, your wife/woman, buy fruit from the old gal in the soi, chat with the Isarn girls in 7-11 (in Lao), complain about taxes, in the local language, have locals friends who can tolerate your crazy ideas, and enjoy about 85% of what's happening. If  not - you're a tourist, a deaf, mute, voyeur visiting the country. OK? 

Edited September 21, 2018 by jgarbo

[whitemouse]

You say you do travel to USA, next time you are in USA get a Multiple Entry tourist visa, there have been no reports of any difficulty getting several consecutive  Multiple visas, and each entry gets you 90 days of worry free Thailand. 

 

You are in Cambodia now, since Phnom Penh refused a visa, all you can do is try 30 day exempt, maybe fly to Suwarna with Bangkok Airways instead of Air Asia to DMK, seems most issues with entry are at DMK.

 

Or hop to HCMC Saigon and apply for TR there, but I have not heard how friendly HCMC consulate is lately.

[Parsve]

Write to me  directly and I will give you a possible solution

[DJ54]

I don’t understand if you’re a US citizen you don’t need a visa. Maybe I missed something...

 

from https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/thai-visas-americans/

 

U.S. citizens carrying a tourist passport and in possession of an onward or return airline ticket do not require a visa to enter Thailand. The passport must have at least six months validity remaining to be allowed entry.  Upon entry, Thai immigration officials will place an immigration stamp in the passport permitting a 30-day stay in Thailand if arriving by air or land. This time limit may subsequently be extended for an additional 30 days by paying a 1,900 baht fee to the Thai Immigration Bureau office

[Searat7]

If you get a long stay visa (O-A) in USA you could get a re-entry permit here at the end of the first year thereby extending your visa for almost a year and you avoid the 800,000b cash in bank requirement here in Thailand. This works well for me; I get a new visa in New York every other year and the re-entry permit here in the off years but timing is important. 

[TSF]

You're 61, you have money in the bank, why aren't you on annual retirement extensions, then you don't have to go through all this crap. I'm on retirement extensions for the past decade or longer, I don't stay in Thailand all the time, I have a multi-re-entry stamp, so come and go like a Thai, every few months I'm traveling to Cambodia or Vietnam or Australia and returning to Thailand when I want with no issues at all.

[duanebigsby]

9 hours ago, TerrylSky said:

There is nothing that says you can not have unlimited tourist visas in a year.

Until an IO says "enough is enough" this guy isn't a tourist.

You're using loopholes to live here, not the intent of a Tourist Visa at all.

[duanebigsby]

48 minutes ago, DJ54 said:

I don’t understand if you’re a US citizen you don’t need a visa. Maybe I missed something...

 

from https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/thai-visas-americans/

 

U.S. citizens carrying a tourist passport and in possession of an onward or return airline ticket do not require a visa to enter Thailand. The passport must have at least six months validity remaining to be allowed entry.  Upon entry, Thai immigration officials will place an immigration stamp in the passport permitting a 30-day stay in Thailand if arriving by air or land. This time limit may subsequently be extended for an additional 30 days by paying a 1,900 baht fee to the Thai Immigration Bureau office

I don't think you understand the thread. You're suggesting a 60 day solution while OP has been living here for years off and on.

[Suradit69]

9 hours ago, wpcoe said:

May I ask what the "down side" to doing a retirement visa or retirement extension would be?  I'm wondering why you don't want to avail yourself of that option.

Yes, once one gets a Non-imm O-A or an extension of stay based on retirement, the O/P would be free to come and go as he pleases during the first year of the O-A and (as long as he had a re-entry permit), during the year of each extension of stay. In the case of the latter he would just need to be in-country some time during the lead up to the annual renewal of extension of stay. It seems this would be perfectly suitable for his circumstances.

 

11 hours ago, TerrylSky said:

Have 'lived' in Thailand for many years legally with numerous tourist visas and visa on arrivals

If you are from the US you wouldn't be eligible for a visa on arrival. Presumably you mean a visa exempt entry.

 

9 hours ago, TerrylSky said:

There is a new law that says you can only do a visa on arrival twice in 12 months

Again, you're talking about visa exempt entries not visas on arrival and the rule limits you to two visa exempt entries per year BY LAND but that does not apply to those by air

 

The advice you are receiving from your lawyer seems to be a bit misleading. I hope you're not paying him too much for his advice.

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Suradit69

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, DJ54 said:

I don’t understand if you’re a US citizen you don’t need a visa. Maybe I missed something...

 

from https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/thai-visas-americans/

 

U.S. citizens carrying a tourist passport and in possession of an onward or return airline ticket do not require a visa to enter Thailand. The passport must have at least six months validity remaining to be allowed entry.  Upon entry, Thai immigration officials will place an immigration stamp in the passport permitting a 30-day stay in Thailand if arriving by air or land. This time limit may subsequently be extended for an additional 30 days by paying a 1,900 baht fee to the Thai Immigration Bureau office

There is also a Ministerial Order indicating visa-exempts are limited in use to those not "visa running" - doing quick out/ins for another 30-days.  But even considering this, current reports indicated there is no reasonable expectation that the IOs / Supervisors at the airport will act according to the written-laws and regulations.  Instead, according to several reports, they may make up a rule about how long the applicant "can have been here before" and then deny-entry based on an unrelated "real" legal rule. 

@TerrylSky

The PP Thai-Embassy has become increasingly unfriendly in recent years.  They put the "extra stamp" on my TR Visa from them when it was only the 3rd TR Visa in my passport (the other two were from Penang and Laos).  The "extra stamp" means one can not get another TR Visa from many consulates.  I would only go there for a TR Visa if I had a new passport, and only once.

 

Every consulate can make up its own rules regarding Visa issuance, and these rules change without notice - so forget about consistency.  The key is to know what consulates are doing recently (on this forum) and do your best to plan accordingly.  Have a backup plan, in case the rules change before you hear about it.

 

I would not try flying in Visa-Exempt - that is the most risky thing to do.  You could be denied-entry, held in detention at the airport, and forced to buy a last-minute ticket back to Cambodia, or even your home country.

 

Unless/until laws/rules are published which limit the amount of time you can spend in Thailand as a Tourist, you are doing nothing wrong at all.  But, what you have to worry about, are IOs who don't respect the laws they are supposed to enforce, and believe they can make up their own and enforce those, instead.  Fortunately, these types of IOs only exist at some airports (both in Bangkok) and the Poipet land-crossing.  All other land-crossings are reported to follow the laws as written.  Note that the land-border visa-exempt 2-per-calendar-year rule does not affect land-entry with a Tourist Visa.

 

What I would do, assuming you don't have 2 land-border Visa-Exempt entries this calendar year:

• Enter Visa-Exempt by land from Cambodia at any crossing other than Poipet.  A shared-taxi can be taken from Battambang to the Ban Laem crossing, for example.
• Get your next TR Visa at Vientiane if you don't have 2+ from them yet, and do not have a little extra-stamp on any TR Visa in your passport which says, "This person travels to Thailand frequently....".  Return to Thailand by-land (flying domestic within Thailand out of Udon Thani, if you hate buses/vans)
• Get further Visas at Savannakhet (meeting all requirements - similar to PP) and always return to Thailand by land-crossing.
• If you encounter a problem getting your TR Visa, use a Visa-Exempt to return (not a problem up to 2 per calendar-year), and then immediately apply for a new passport from your Embassy.  This will "reset" your Visa-count with the consulates, who only look at what they see in your passport.
• Start with the more difficult Thai-consulates first, then use the friendlier ones.  I suggested starting at the most friendly ones, above, since you already have some TR Visas in your passport.

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

52 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

Until an IO says "enough is enough" this guy isn't a tourist.

You're using loopholes to live here, not the intent of a Tourist Visa at all.

I have yet to see any legal text which describes how the OP's activity violates the terms of Tourist Visa use as written.  If he were working-illegally or similar - then, yes.

For Visa-Exempt, it would depend how the Ministerial Order limiting their use was interpreted.  Fortunately, after the "2x by land" Visa-Exempt rule went into effect, most land-borders simply started following this, instead of the unclear other provisions.  Poipet is the exception, but they hassle those with Non-O Multiples and Tourist Visas as well, so nothing can be assumed at that entry-point.

[German farang]

3 hours ago, whitemouse said:

You say you do travel to USA, next time you are in USA get a Multiple Entry tourist visa, there have been no reports of any difficulty getting several consecutive  Multiple visas, and each entry gets you 90 days of worry free Thailand. 

 

You are in Cambodia now, since Phnom Penh refused a visa, all you can do is try 30 day exempt, maybe fly to Suwarna with Bangkok Airways instead of Air Asia to DMK, seems most issues with entry are at DMK.

 

Or hop to HCMC Saigon and apply for TR there, but I have not heard how friendly HCMC consulate is lately.

True, Saigon consulate isn't so friendly anymore. Hanoi or Vientiane would be my choice.

[Awk]

8 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I have yet to see any legal text which describes how the OP's activity violates the terms of Tourist Visa use as written.  If he were working-illegally or similar - then, yes.
 

 

Never mind what the official Thai law says.  It violates the terms of the resident better-than-thou ThaiVisa geezers here, which obviously supercede any Thai law.

[duanebigsby]

19 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I have yet to see any legal text which describes how the OP's activity violates the terms of Tourist Visa use as written.  If he were working-illegally or similar - then, yes.

For Visa-Exempt, it would depend how the Ministerial Order limiting their use was interpreted.  Fortunately, after the "2x by land" Visa-Exempt rule went into effect, most land-borders simply started following this, instead of the unclear other provisions.  Poipet is the exception, but they hassle those with Non-O Multiples and Tourist Visas as well, so nothing can be assumed at that entry-point.

My point was it's up to the IO.

Multiple exempts and tourist visas over many years will look like he's not a tourist, rather someone living here.

Legally, the OP is using existing laws to live here.

I think he is  stretching  the definition of tourist and some IO will take exception to it eventually.

(which is what happened)