UK govt petitioned to reinstate proof of income letters for British expats in Thailand

[David Walden]

9 hours ago, zydeco said:

A couple of questions.  Does anyone know how many foreigners in Thailand are here on a retirement visa?

 

How many British are here on a retirement visa?

 

How many British use the income letter for their retirement visa?

 

Are any of these numbers big enough to generate a response from the British Embassy or Thai Immigration?  If the numbers are too small do they even care?

5 years ago at meeting of the Chiang Mai expats club.  The then British Consul was the guest speaker at a social meeting with Q and A after.  He said there were about 68,000 Brits living in Thailand.  Most of them are elderly, many have planned their lives end in Thailand when it happens.  There were about 130 staff at the Embassy and Consulate, half Brits and half Thais working for the Embassy.  He said 50% of each work day time is taken up sorting out issues of Brits living in Thailand who have died there.  Many go and live in Thailand when their time is near,  All can be quite involved, those attending need quite a lot of experience with these matters with legal and funeral arrangements. Most surviving partners do not have a clue what to do legally if one dies or how to go about anything.  Most are single mature aged men who often don't have a will.  It's pretty well all up to the Embassy to sort things out and it takes a lot of time.

[Expattaff1308]

8 hours ago, Moonlover said:

 

I have made this point before, but I'll point it out again. This is what the embassy said in their follow up statement that they were withdrawing this service:

 

'British Nationals should show evidence of minimum funds for their visa type by showing a Thai bank statement and/or bank book. This is not a new requirement and has always been an option for foreigners renewing retirement and marriage visas in Thailand".

 

Do you have an explanation for that comment? I do keep in mind that we're talking about income, not capital lump sum.

That would be fine BUT Immigration are yet to announce that, those who have contacted their Imm Offices have been told they require an Embassy Letter if Income forms part or all of the figures required.

[anon537687643]

It’s all about UK Foreign office not prepared to allocate resources to do the task of verifying the Pension, even if it charges the retiree! Total unwillingness to help Tax paying Uk pensioners ! Shameful UK and sums up the state of the country !


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Expattaff1308]

26 minutes ago, Greenhill said:

But they can check it if you provide original bank statements that show the income from those various companies!!

Is that not irrefutable proof????

Exactly, I submitted my evidence with letters from my Pension Providers the DWP & Civil Service. Can you see them Falsifying Figures to meet my needs with the Thai Immigration.

Easy to check, email and phone numbers on the letter with my Pension members number and Nat Ins number plain for all to see.

[Expattaff1308]

7 hours ago, sandyf said:

That is one point of view.

Another is that the Embassy could have continued the service and enforced verified proof. In that all documents in support of income be accompanied by a notarised copy of the bank statement indicating the income received.

 

There is nothing dodgy about my income but I have only ever sent photo copies of the pension providers letter which could have very easy been fake. 

Although it is a bit of inconvenience I would rather the Thai bank account option than enhanced proof requirements. We can only hope there is no new version that would be insisted on by immigration.

People should be careful of what they wish for.

I used to show originals sent every year by the civil service, I also used to take them along to Imm and attach my original letter from the Civil Service to the pension letter and show them the original from the DWP and give them a copy because that amount doesnt change, what more can I do?

[quandow]

Didn't I also read that it was Chang Mai immigration that was not accepting these letters?

[Issanjohn]

3 hours ago, zydeco said:

He's talking about events that happened 45 years ago.

Like I said I don’t recall but I do remember hearing that story somewhere before after he mentioned it.  It just sounds familiar but I don’t recall the incident.  But seriously 45 years ago?  What was the ears all about?  

[Issanjohn]

Everyone should cease speculation because I just got some more good news from someone who is an extremely reliable source.  Although I don’t know how things are going to work out for British citizens.  The rest of us should be okay at least this year anyway and even if things do change the rest of us have a year to figure it out or for them to figure out an alternative.  Of course that all depends on when you have to get your next extension.  Everyone seriously needs to chill it disturbs me as well and this probably won’t even effect me so I understand all the hysteria.  I guess sometimes you gotta take life as it comes at you which is not my preferred method I like to have a plan for everything important in my life.  

[jesimps]

8 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

 

Have you been drinking on an empty head?

 

8 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Ever try and tell someone how to do their business?  It doesn't work.  This is all a real lack of communication and understanding.

 

The BE- should keep issuing the letters with disclaimer- give them to their applicants and let Thai Imm decide if they want to accept them as is or ask the applicants for added proof.

 

Good Lord- nothing is fool proof in the 21st Century- Money is still counter fitted; Passports can be faked and on and on. Do we stop all people from travelling or stop printing money?

 

If you are an Imm Officer- and you suspect forgery- do your job or send the documents to a Special Investigation Department who can provide added authentication.

They already do. The letter already states, and I quote "Mr ....... states that he receives pensions of GBP ....... and has shown us statements from .......... stating that he receives pensions totalling GBP ..... per annum".

If that isn't a disclaimer I don't know what is.

[jesimps]

8 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Their due diligence has been minimal - they are only certifying that the applicant states that his income is XYZ.

 

I am aware of several cases where spurious supporting ‘evidence’ has been accepted without question. That makes the ‘certification’ about as valuable as the USA statutory declaration.

Wrong! They're saying the applicant has shown them documents stating that his income is xyz. The US method doesn't involve documents as proof.

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, jesimps said:

Wrong! They're saying the applicant has shown them documents stating that his income is xyz. The US method doesn't involve documents as proof.

 

 

Read my post again !

 

I said that the level of due diligence by the BE makes the certification about as valuable as the US declaration (which is worthless).

[jesimps]

7 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

They probably are, but Immigration will not accept unsubstantiated documents, and the Embassy cannot prove that the information supplied is totally correct.

So what does immigration require? As of this moment, if you're going by the income route, a letter from your embassy is mandatory. We're sort of stuck in no-man's land.

[ozmeldo]

Mark my words. Only option will become seasoned money, in savings account.

 

If you think about it from Thailand is perspective, the fraud goes in theory to zero and the paperwork is reduced to one page.

 

Embassies pulling back bc I'm certain they've been told by Thailand that they fraud is rampant. Embassies cannot continue to validate this behavior. Who doesn't know this has been totally abused?! Lie, sign the paper and stay snother year.

 

The embassies are exausted of the drama. They know how much fraud they support. They can't knowingly, will fully continue do it's done. Party over.

 

The Thai police care not about your little dramafest and tantrums. You are not an income stream for them. Foreign expat contribution to GDP is nothing and they obviously care more about a Chinese criminal getting punched in the face than they do you and your 'money'.

 

A chill wind is blowing in Thailand. The fewer the farang the better. Rather than hyperbole and drama, just tighten everything up. Same net affect.

 

Wake up, stop crying it's only 4-800k. If you can't manage that, there's Cambodia or god forsaken Philippines.

 

We are not wanted by the junta, by the power base of the country.

 

The solution is simple. Deposit the money in the bank and move on - or move out. Really, if you can't do this at 65-75 that's a personal financial issue and not Thailand's problem.

 

The people who complain are those that can't meet the standard which has been about since forever.

 

The choice:

1 one page - no fraud

2 ten pages - huge fraud

What should they choose?

What would you choose?

 

[chickenslegs]

3 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

Mark my words. Only option will become seasoned money, in savings account.

 

If you think about it from Thailand is perspective, the fraud goes in theory to zero and the paperwork is reduced to one page.

 

Embassies pulling back bc I'm certain they've been told by Thailand that they fraud is rampant. Embassies cannot continue to validate this behavior. Who doesn't know this has been totally abused?! Lie, sign the paper and stay snother year.

 

The embassies are exausted of the drama. They know how much fraud they support. They can't knowingly, will fully continue do it's done. Party over.

 

The Thai police care not about your little dramafest and tantrums. You are not an income stream for them. Foreign expat contribution to GDP is nothing and they obviously care more about a Chinese criminal getting punched in the face than they do you and your 'money'.

 

A chill wind is blowing in Thailand. The fewer the farang the better. Rather than hyperbole and drama, just tighten everything up. Same net affect.

 

Wake up, stop crying it's only 4-800k. If you can't manage that, there's Cambodia or god forsaken Philippines.

 

We are not wanted by the junta, by the power base of the country.

 

The solution is simple. Deposit the money in the bank and move on - or move out. Really, if you can't do this at 65-75 that's a personal financial issue and not Thailand's problem.

 

The people who complain are those that can't meet the standard which has been about since forever.

 

The choice:

1 one page - no fraud

2 ten pages - huge fraud

What should they choose?

What would you choose?

 

If a letter from the bank to prove a balance of 800,000 baht is acceptable, I do not see why a letter from the bank to prove monthly foreign transfers of 65,000 baht or more should not be acceptable (or the equivalent quarterly/biannual foreign transfers).

 

Clearly, the 800,000 baht in the bank option is much more susceptible to fraud than the monthly foreign transfer.

[ozmeldo]

46 minutes ago, jesimps said:

So what does immigration require? As of this moment, if you're going by the income route, a letter from your embassy is mandatory. We're sort of stuck in no-man's land.

The situation is unclear but the requirement is perfectly clear to me.

 

Nevertheless you and so many others aren't getting it. The British embassy, possibly followed by US is no longer issuing statements. The route is CLOSED.

 

Since the letter that guarantees income cannot be aquired. The only route forward is a bank account.

 

Perhaps in time it will be actually announced, but this way of going about it is very Thai and should surprise no one.

[ozmeldo]

24 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

If a letter from the bank to prove a balance of 800,000 baht is acceptable, I do not see why a letter from the bank to prove monthly foreign transfers of 65,000 baht or more should not be acceptable (or the equivalent quarterly/biannual foreign transfers).

 

Clearly, the 800,000 baht in the bank option is much more susceptible to fraud than the monthly foreign transfer.

Clearly? Not. Just the opposite.

 

You get a letter printed on a bank letterhead within 1-2 working days.

 

Update the book on the day you make your extension. Bring a photocopy of the book and the bank book to the IO.

 

If you've borrowed that money, well not much they can do but it does need to sit 2-3 months.

 

But no way this method has  more potential for fraud.

 

Further, the bank cannot guarantee your future income. That should be entirely self evident. Just bc you have income this year or this month who knows about the next. 

 

Especially since the world is awash in financial bubbles. Your securities throwing off 3.75%. Dividend reduced, you sell shares, you can't rent your property... endless reasons and drama.

 

The only certainty is what you deposited last month, not what you will deposit next. Past performance is no indication of future performance.. written into every financial perspectus.

 

Yes, govt pension could and even should be certified but 99% of countries not providing 65k in pension pm. So it's a hash of funds. Why bother, I wouldn't

[chickenslegs]

8 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

The situation is unclear but the requirement is perfectly clear to me.

 

Nevertheless you and so many others aren't getting it. The British embassy, possibly followed by US is no longer issuing statements. The route is CLOSED.

 

Since the letter that guarantees income cannot be aquired. The only route forward is a bank account.

 

Perhaps in time it will be actually announced, but this way of going about it is very Thai and should surprise no one.

I think you are assuming that the requirement for an Embassy letter is a statutory requirement. I don't think it is, as it is not mentioned on the Thai Immigration website.

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

 

3 minutes ago, ozmeldo said:

If you've borrowed that money, well not much they can do but it does need to sit 2-3 months.

That is exactly why the 800,000 in the bank is so much more susceptible to fraud.

[Runamile]

If contacting Jeremy Hunt please note that unless you are a constituent of his in South-West Surrey the @parliament address is incorrect. The claim is your mail will be ignored. To make contact with him you need to contact him as Foreign Secretary, at the Foreign Office, but they only give their generic e-mail address, rather minimising its chances of reaching him. Anyway, here is the address [email protected]

[Time Traveller]

13 hours ago, zydeco said:

A couple of questions.  Does anyone know how many foreigners in Thailand are here on a retirement visa?

 

How many British are here on a retirement visa?

 

How many British use the income letter for their retirement visa?

 

Are any of these numbers big enough to generate a response from the British Embassy or Thai Immigration?  If the numbers are too small do they even care?

It's a lot more than 12.

[Runamile]

Critical questions Time Traveller, but impossible to work out how to get answers to them. Certainly, it would seem nobody, British or Thai, cares in the slightest. Solutions are incredibly simple, so that makes it seem as though nobody has remotely bothered to work out solutions.

[Time Traveller]

Wake up people, are you really that stupid?

stop worrying about the British embassy, they are not the problem. Thai immigration are the problem. They should not need a letter from the embassy. It's just another pointless (expensive) document that you the sheeple blindly do without question.....If immigration want income verification, then you should be able to PRESENT INCOME DOCUMENTATION DIRECTLY TO IMMIGRATION.....omg, is that not common sense?

 

The only reason, and let me emphasize, the ONLY reason immigration started requesting Embassy letters was because their staff had problems with English language and difficulting understanding/reading all the different kinds of income statements. The embassy letter basically was the standard template. .....Again, for the slow of learning, an embassy letter is just a pointless extra step. They don't require a embassy letter for bank deposit extensions, so why for an income extension? You should be able to provide the proof directly to Thai immigration, just like the Bank deposit Statement. That's how every other country in the world does it. And that's just common sense.

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

Mark my words. Only option will become seasoned money, in savings account.

 

If you think about it from Thailand is perspective, the fraud goes in theory to zero and the paperwork is reduced to one page.

 

Embassies pulling back bc I'm certain they've been told by Thailand that they fraud is rampant. Embassies cannot continue to validate this behavior. Who doesn't know this has been totally abused?! Lie, sign the paper and stay snother year.

 

The embassies are exausted of the drama. They know how much fraud they support. They can't knowingly, will fully continue do it's done. Party over.

 

The Thai police care not about your little dramafest and tantrums. You are not an income stream for them. Foreign expat contribution to GDP is nothing and they obviously care more about a Chinese criminal getting punched in the face than they do you and your 'money'.

 

A chill wind is blowing in Thailand. The fewer the farang the better. Rather than hyperbole and drama, just tighten everything up. Same net affect.

 

Wake up, stop crying it's only 4-800k. If you can't manage that, there's Cambodia or god forsaken Philippines.

 

We are not wanted by the junta, by the power base of the country.

 

The solution is simple. Deposit the money in the bank and move on - or move out. Really, if you can't do this at 65-75 that's a personal financial issue and not Thailand's problem.

 

The people who complain are those that can't meet the standard which has been about since forever.

 

The choice:

1 one page - no fraud

2 ten pages - huge fraud

What should they choose?

What would you choose?

 

There is some fraud. But you seem act as if you have insider information that justifies wildly exaggerating it. Personally I have no idea how widespread it is and I'm sure that you don't either. 

[Scouse123]

2 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

If you've borrowed that money, well not much they can do but it does need to sit 2-3 months.

 

2 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

I think you are assuming that the requirement for an Embassy letter is a statutory requirement. I don't think it is, as it is not mentioned on the Thai Immigration website.

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

 

That is exactly why the 800,000 in the bank is so much more susceptible to fraud. 

ozmeldo,

 

I cannot see many people being able to borrow 800,000 baht from friends to sit in a bank for three months. I think you and I know that it is wishful thinking by others to believe that would be an option.

 

chickenslegs,

 

It doesn't matter how much whining goes on here by TV members or petitions raised, a decision has been taken and the British Embassy is not going to change position to please a few expats. (Their view will be, and I don't agree with it mind you! ) if you cannot fulfill the requirements, go home!....... They will certainly use plenty of flowery words and blame-shifting, but it will not change, because gents when you face reality they just do not care about the retiree.

 

 

[johnmell]

In the case of the B.E not being able to verify people's pensions, would it be that difficult for them to email, or call the pension provider, to confirm this.

Think i know what the answer will be, but just a thought.

[Jim P]

Cant see the problem, you show a stamped bank statement along with a book that shows at least an average of 65,000 baht per month has gone into that account in the last 12 months and a transaction done within the last 24hrs. The letter is just a waste of money.

 

People saying they are not wanted, well those that dont meet the immigration criteria in there own countries aren`t wanted either.

[chicowoodduck]

Good luck with that idea......better chance of taking a piss in the wind and not getting spray back on your pants.....lol....????????

[soalbundy]

3 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

It's a lot more than 12.

Thank you Baldwick

[jgarbo]

18 hours ago, darksidedog said:

No great surprise there. Do very little and comment about the shrinking services even less.

In the meanwhile expats can apparently sink or swim on their own.

You don't understand "embassies". They exist to promote high level diplomacy, trade and international relations. Helping expats with pensions is a nuisance, handled if at all by low level staff. So get 100,000 signatures on that petition or watch it fade away. Or perhaps a terminally ill Brit might self-immolate, Buddhist style, at the embassy gate to wake up Mr Hunt.

[kiwikeith]

19 hours ago, Just1Voice said:

My thoughts are that the Embassies should provide them, but only to those who can provide actual proof of their income.  I can't speak for any Brits, but I know a couple of Americans who get the Income Verification from the U.S. Consulate here in Chiang Mai, who do not meet the financial requirements. And this is what Immigration wants to eliminate. If you're legal, no problem.  If you're not, your out of here, as it should be. 

 

Can't you get an annual income statement from the British agency that handles the pension.

Or even the tax department can do this.

I do this every year from the Social Welfare office in NZ for rates rebates on my residential home in NZ.

They just print it out for you, if your out of the country you can appoint an agent to get it for you.

'My friend in Chiang Mai, whom I have known for many years gets a British and NZ pension combined, he appointed a close friend in NZ as his agent and has no problems.

 

I hope all expats send emails of concern as another post suggested and sign the petition.

Why they are trying to scare quality income revenue providing good people from LOS is ridiculous .

Good luck.

[superal]

16 hours ago, fcgprg said:

e-mail the foreign secretary [email protected]

it might make a difference if many e mail him direct.

You sure you have his name spelt right ?