UK govt petitioned to reinstate proof of income letters for British expats in Thailand

[prakhonchai nick]

20 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Yes I agree with you, but in any system, in any country, you are never going to get a system where everyone can be sure there is no dishonesty. Look at the British MPs, how many of them are honest? Their expenses claims, and jobs on the side while still drawing their full MPs salary etc, etc, etc.

Then blame Immigration.....because that is what they want!

 

[dabhand]

All this talk about verifying income might just stir the Thai Tax Department into taking an interest. ????

 

The law of unintended consequences?

[Thaidream]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

If that's not hiding, I'm not sure what you'd call it.

As I mentioned-  when they say they are studying the issue- this is diplomatic speak for not making any decision.  In the meantime- keep getting the income letters.  Now up to the Thai Immi they want added documentation.

 

The Us Embassy is not going to change the way it issues a sworn affidavit-  You make your statement- take an Oath-it is true under penalty of perjury- the Consul checks your identity- signs the form- puts the official Embassy Seal on it with date and time.

 

The income Affidavit is not the only Affidavit that is issued.  I have gotten Affidavits for IRS; Child Support etc and all have worked exactly the same way.  No Embassy can verify each bit of info being attested to- their function is as a Notary in the same manner a notarization would be used in the US say for a bank loan; a house mortgage or other.

 

If I had to venture a guess- the Affidavit will still be available at the US Embassy.

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

I sure you are correct, but anything is better than sitting on backsides and twiddling thumbs, full kudos to the people that are being pro-active. If you don't try, you don't get.

I agree.  Someone has to take the fall when this gets out to the general public.  Keep up the heat.

[prakhonchai nick]

Just now, dabhand said:

All this talk about verifying income might just stir the Thai Tax Department into taking an interest. ????

 

The law of unintended consequences?

Indeed...much the same as the condo dwellers complaint about the bells ringing in the Wat at 3am.

[ginjag]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

Imagine all the UK state pensioners leaving Thailand to stay in the UK, it is not just the state pensions they will need to pay out, there are all the other benefits they can claim over and above. UK pensioners all arriving back in the UK?? that is the last thing the UK government will want.

But those here -not normally residing in the UK have their pension frozen......just does not make sense to drive them back because of this as they will have to pay 150 quid a week and all the other benefits,   For 13 years since retirement I get 87 quid a week.    UK tight fisted government, who will readily pay for illegal immigrants to stay----makes me sick

 

[NoshowJones]

1 minute ago, ginjag said:

But those here -not normally residing in the UK have their pension frozen......just does not make sense to drive them back because of this as they will have to pay 150 quid a week and all the other benefits,   For 13 years since retirement I get 87 quid a week.    UK tight fisted government, who will readily pay for illegal immigrants to stay----makes me sick

 

I could not agree more Ginjag.

[CharlieH]

Reported post and response removed.

[Scouse123]

3 hours ago, Luckysilk said:

And how would you feel if in your home country anyone could simply get on a plane and land in your country and live happily ever after spending a mere 65k a month or better yet 800k in a bank account ?

 

 

Luckysilk,

 

Not sure who you are aiming at here?

 

However, if it was the UK, I would feel really happy if we had migrants entering with 65K a month or 800K in the bank, checked every year to keep qualifying, and reporting whereabouts every 90 days, also, happier still,  without them being given a free home, furniture, clothing, translators if they don't speak English, free health checks and visits, and money every week from the UK government!!

 

The reason I would be ecstatic is that they were contributing to the country, buying cars and apartments, and helping our economy and spending as opposed to leeching or begging from it.

 

What's not to like?

[Suradit69]

5 hours ago, Just1Voice said:

I know a couple of Americans who get the Income Verification from the U.S. Consulate here in Chiang Mai, who do not meet the financial requirements.

Yes but the US Embassy can only notarize the signature of the person presenting himself or administer a sworn affidavit. Even in the US a notary can only certify a signature. No notary would be willing to guarantee the contents of a document he notarizes. They would be setting themselves up for legal consequences by guaranteeing the contents of a document that they couldn't possibly verify. 

 

I have documentary proof of the amount I claim, but in this day and age it wouldn't be that difficult to produce genuine looking documents that are created by some clever person on a computer.

 

Even embassies that claim they are (or were) saying they had "proved" the amounts claimed, will admit they haven't the time or resources to check the documents presented are genuine.

 

The problem, as always, is that a small percentage of dishonest people do make fraudulent claims and the vast majority who are honest get screwed in consequence.

 

Coming up with either (roughly) $1230 or $2000 a month in income needed for a marriage or retirement extension can't be that big of a hurdle for most expats.  Proving that income may or may not be that easy to establish for some expats whose source of income is something other than state or private pensions that issue regular uncomplicated statements.

 

I am less interested in "catching" the few people who commit fraud than putting all the honest people through an unnecessarily difficult "guilty until  proven innocent" experience.

 

 

 

[Surasak]

2 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

I suspect the UK Government knows what most British citizens have and earn. 

Yes they do and so it also very easy for the consulate to verify you income. It is a;so very easy to get a tax statement from the gov.uk site to prove your income.

[Issanjohn]

11 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

This is Thailand (even for the foreign service staff). You're joking, right??? 

 

Coming from a country where its current president and majority in Congress couldn't tell the truth about anything if their lives depended on it!!!!

 

False and misleading and misdirection are the coin of the realm these days...

It’s not a political issue dude, it’s about low level government employees of the United States and British doing their jobs!!!  And actually Thai immigration an actual supervisor is the only person who gave me a straight answer that they are not going to stop accepting the income affidavits from anyone but I don’t know because some immigration offices will tell you different things so I don’t necessarily know if that’s true either but he seemed pretty sure and confident about it.  

 

I am retired military from Special Forces and I worked for a Special Mission Unit for 10 years with a particular agency’s Special Activities Division.  When I was there I dealt with lots of government employees with many different agencies including our embassies all over Asia including Thailand that’s how I know one person on their staff who’s still there since I retired.  I’ve seen plenty of government employees who were not worth a damn but this is on a whole new level.  The only person in the embassy who could give me a straight answer was a friend and she’s on leave now.  She told me good news however there’s lots of other misinformation coming out of both embassies United States and British but mostly misinformation from the British Embassy so far but at least the British Embassy will actually answer their damn phones which is more than I can say for the United States Embassy.  The politics in Washington, D.C. have nothing to do with this so I’m not sure where you were going with that.  Before I retired the United States Embassy used to be awesome down in Bangkok.  My favorite embassy was always the United States Embassy in Tokyo, Japan.  I was assigned to Tokyo for a few years before I retired.  

[marcusarelus]

7 minutes ago, Issanjohn said:

It’s not a political issue dude, it’s about low level government employees of the United States and British doing their jobs!!!  And actually Thai immigration an actual supervisor is the only person who gave me a straight answer that they are not going to stop accepting the income affidavits from anyone but I don’t know because some immigration offices will tell you different things so I don’t necessarily know if that’s true either but he seemed pretty sure and confident about it.  

 

I am retired military from Special Forces and I worked for a Special Mission Unit for 10 years with a particular agency’s Special Activities Division.  When I was there I dealt with lots of government employees with many different agencies including our embassies all over Asia including Thailand that’s how I know one person on their staff who’s still there since I retired.  I’ve seen plenty of government employees who were not worth a damn but this is on a whole new level.  The only person in the embassy who could give me a straight answer was a friend and she’s on leave now.  She told me good news however there’s lots of other misinformation coming out of both embassies United States and British but mostly misinformation from the British Embassy so far but at least the British Embassy will actually answer their damn phones which is more than I can say for the United States Embassy.  The politics in Washington, D.C. have nothing to do with this so I’m not sure where you were going with that.  Before I retired the United States Embassy used to be awesome down in Bangkok.  My favorite embassy was always the United States Embassy in Tokyo, Japan.  I was assigned to Tokyo for a few years before I retired.  

Do you remember when Tony P sent the box of ears to the American Embassy in Laos on a Friday and they sat on a desk all weekend till the secretaries opened them up on Monday? 

[Surasak]

2 hours ago, Runamile said:

The really annoying thing about this is that neither British or Thai side are applying any genuine thought to the matter.   Here is a potential solution from each side: 1. The British embassy outsources the income consular letter procedure as they and other embassies have often done when they either can't cope with the volume of paperwork or don't have the technical competence. Many Brits would pay significant sums for this proper procedure 2. Why can't the Thais accept a global statement of income properly drawn up and attested by a qualified Thai accountant. Again, many Brits would happily pay significant sums for this.

You are assuming people have the money to pay out for this service. Those who require the Embassy letter of proof of income may be doing so because they do not have sufficient spare funds.

[evadgib]

8 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

What a pointless thread.

Just regurgitating the same old opinions and positions on the other two threads that are still running.

...& did so without the words 'cave' or 'koh tao' ????

[Issanjohn]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

Do you remember when Tony P sent the box of ears to the American Embassy in Laos on a Friday and they sat on a desk all weekend till the secretaries opened them up on Monday? 

Actually I don’t recall that particularly but now that you mentioned it it does ring a bell.  I think I remember hearing some story like that but I only visited Laos a few times.  I mostly dealt with Korea and several other countries when I was assigned to Japan.  I’ve worked with people at many embassies around Asia but I never actually worked inside the embassy.  We were assigned to an undisclosed location in Tokyo.  

[yardrunner]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Having lived here 12 years, I don't have a member of parliament to email!

 

But I agree with the gist of your post.  We need to inundate the british embassy and Jeremy Hunt (head of FO) with emails and letters questioning their unilateral decision to stop providing the letters REQUIRED by Thai Immigration.

you may not be able to vote but your MP is the one who represents the constituency in which you resided before you left the UK this from the MP who represents the constituency in which i used to reside

[Surasak]

2 hours ago, Nurseynutcase said:

I provide the British embassy with all of my annual P60's and the rental agreement on my house in the UK.  None of these are bogus - my NI(national Insurance) number is printed on each one of the forms.  I will not receive my State Pension until I am 66(2 years time).

 

I came to live in Thailand because it is cheaper than living in the UK.  The forms I provide are my actual income.  Yes I could transfer it all to a Thai bank account but from what I have read it is so difficult to get it back to the country of origin.

 

Also even with my high spending lifestyle I do not spend 65,000 baht a month on living expenses.

 

I will be OK until next November 2019 and then I will have to rethink my position here.

 

Thailand will lose out if I and many others like me decide to decamp and go to another country,

Thailand will lose out if I and many others like me decide to decamp and go to another country,............And the British Embassy couldn't give e toss.

[malt25]

This isn't intended as a flame or put down. I'm genuinely interested in sensible replies.

Ok, you are a Brit. Your income is say, via a social security payment or pension. You have 2 or possibly 3 other sources of income from investment, share dividends or maybe property rental.

Do you expect the British embassy either directly or via outsourcing, to do whatever administration that's necessary to verify your income ? Personally I feel you are asking a lot & can understand the embassy's non issue of said document in the forthcoming future.

Being an Aussie, I only have to get a statutory declaration, that I have filled in the content, witnessed by my embassy, verifying MY signature. When applying for my extension based on retirement, I present said statutory declaration as well as Australian bank statement showing pension payment. I also present Thai bank statement showing transfer from Oz to Thailand. I also have at hand, but have never needed, copy of broker transfer of funds from Oz to Thai bank. Job done !

Is there any possibility of this income verification method working for yo guys ?

I understand that the Thai immigration can, & possible will move the goal posts for many of us in the future. But until that time comes, we can only play by the rules as we know them.

Interesting times ahead.

[bwpage3]

5 hours ago, zydeco said:

A couple of questions.  Does anyone know how many foreigners in Thailand are here on a retirement visa?

 

How many British are here on a retirement visa?

 

How many British use the income letter for their retirement visa?

 

Are any of these numbers big enough to generate a response from the British Embassy or Thai Immigration?  If the numbers are too small do they even care?

This is from 2010

 

 

 

[zzaa09]

The reality.

Government is not your friend nor extended family. 

They don't give a rat's arse about you.

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, yardrunner said:

you may not be able to vote but your MP is the one who represents the constituency in which you resided before you left the UK this from the MP who represents the constituency in which i used to reside

In the house it's all about Brexit, not about a few thousand expats who can't vote.

[Spidey]

4 hours ago, marko kok prong said:

enjoy garden partys with cucumber sandwiches

They're actually smoked salmon, cucumber and cream cheese sandwiches made from wholemeal bread with the crusts cut off. Only the best for us Brits.

[shackleton]

53 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

No one has yet said how many there are that use the income method?

I think many of the retired British Pensioners could not afford to go back to the U K 

as most  if married have their money tied up in the family housing land ect

wishful thinking of many returning to the UK over not getting  Pension letters from the British Embassy

A big inconvenience Yes    

[Surasak]

1 hour ago, dabhand said:

All this talk about verifying income might just stir the Thai Tax Department into taking an interest. ????

 

The law of unintended consequences?

WHY? If you don't earn money in Thailand, you don't pay tax on it.

[sambum]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I sure you are correct, but anything is better than sitting on backsides and twiddling thumbs, full kudos to the people that are being pro-active. If you don't try, you don't get.

Exactly - if everybody had the same negative attitude as the poster you replied to, then there would never be any change - good or bad!

 

The same applies to the people who complain endlessly about Government policy and don't vote - using the excuse that they're all in it just to line their own pockets.

[sambum]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

As I mentioned-  when they say they are studying the issue- this is diplomatic speak for not making any decision.  In the meantime- keep getting the income letters.  Now up to the Thai Immi they want added documentation.

 

The Us Embassy is not going to change the way it issues a sworn affidavit-  You make your statement- take an Oath-it is true under penalty of perjury- the Consul checks your identity- signs the form- puts the official Embassy Seal on it with date and time.

 

The income Affidavit is not the only Affidavit that is issued.  I have gotten Affidavits for IRS; Child Support etc and all have worked exactly the same way.  No Embassy can verify each bit of info being attested to- their function is as a Notary in the same manner a notarization would be used in the US say for a bank loan; a house mortgage or other.

 

If I had to venture a guess- the Affidavit will still be available at the US Embassy.

I do hope you are right, because otherwise there will be a lot of people headed back to the good ol' US of A (or elsewhere!) when Thai Immigration says that it wants the information verified!!!

[Surasak]

24 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

In the house it's all about Brexit, not about a few thousand expats who can't vote.

Many of us can still vote.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, sambum said:

And when Thai Immigration says that it wants the information verified?

I will be happy to give them complete documentation of amounts; source to include letters bank statements ATM cards and ATM slips. I will also provide the address of each source should they want further verification.  If the  Thai Imm will not accept this then  I will reluctantly place funds in a Thai Bank and immediately pull  it out once the extension is issued.

[marcusarelus]

Just now, Thaidream said:

I will be happy to give them complete documentation of amounts; source to include letters bank statements ATM cards and ATM slips. I will also provide the address of each source should they want further verification.  If the  Thai Imm will not accept this then  I will reluctantly place funds in a Thai Bank and immediately pull it out once the extension is issued.

Would your transfer fees eat up any interest gain? Or are you concerned about some imaginary security issue?