Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Peterw42]

3 minutes ago, kensisaket said:

Suggest you look into doing a free cash advance using your foreign bank debit card.  This is not made from an ATM machine.  I use Bangkok Bank. If you go to the customer service counter (not the tellers) there should be a small debit card reader sitting on the corner of one of the desks.  My U.S. bank allows up to $4000 USD at a time.  No fees on either end.  

Have you ever looked into the exchange rate you are getting for your over the counter withdrawl, it will be very poor compared to the daily TT rate or even the ATM rate. 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, marko kok prong said:

No,now they [as i said varies from office to office],want to see money in and out of account not just sit there,as this was a scam some used borrowing money leaving it in bank for 3 months,then after visa granted repaying it,why i always use my savings account ,not deposit account,it has a sizeable sum,but was rejected,as there had been no movement,where as my savings account was fine as it showed movement.

Through an agent, it's a "one day loan," and the seasoning is magically waived.  I can imagine the frustration caused by those using 3-mo loans, from non-immigration-connected sources.

 

1 hour ago, david555 said:

But the dates not showing the 3 month seasoning ….that is another  maybe illegal thing ...

It's "legal" for an IO of sufficient-rank to waive the seasoning.  Unfortunately, I haven't read of a case where this authority was ever used as it would seem to have been intended - for humanitarian grounds or similar - only in conjunction with agent-facilitated applications.

 

1 hour ago, tingtongtourist said:

very ironic. foriegner constantly complain on Thailand and corruption but when the clampdown of lawbreaking hits them its very different.

It could very well be that any forthcoming "clampdown" - if previous ones are precedent - somehow results in more agent-activity, rather than achieving the stated goal.

 

1 hour ago, ozmeldo said:

Combination is just as complicated to verify, maybe more. If I were Thai immigration I'd just make everyone do the 400/800. Think of the paperwork it will cut thru.

Think of those who had the income, so didn't need agents until now - and who would benefit if they suddenly did require such services.  Want to bet this is more on the minds of some, that what a lower-level staff must sift-through?

[Peterw42]

11 minutes ago, evadgib said:

If immigration laid on a shuttle service, free ice creams and granted mandatory PR for anyone that's lived here for more than 5 years a fair percentage of you lot would still get the hump!

If the BE made the announcement, I wouldn't be buying it.

[Torrens54]

Maybe it’s different for an Australian on a SPOUSE VISA !

 

Every year, for many years, we get a letter from our Thai Bank, a couple of days before fronting Immigration.

The Bank’s Certified Letter costs Baht 100 and it shows there has been a MINIMUM of Baht 400,000 in the account for the prescribed time.  

 

SIMPLE as that!

Year after year, after year.....

Edited October 13, 2018 by Torrens54
Aligning typing.

[Pattaya46]

29 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Thats quite an assumption an can easily be used against all nationals but of course as I said its just your assumption, the British Embassy asked for proof before issuing the letters which may prove your assumption somewhat off course

Uh... Another UK member said previously that he send the application and the documents by email. How do you want that the BE verify if these documents really exist and/or have not been modified? Not difficult to modify the pdf file that many organisations send. These sent documents certainly prove nothing... IMHO.

[Thaidream]

15 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

's "legal" for an IO of sufficient-rank to waive the seasoning.  Unfortunately, I haven't read of a case where this authority was ever used as it would seem to have been intended - for humanitarian grounds or similar - only in conjunction with agent-facilitated applications.

 Jack- agree completely- however- I have to believe the higher officer has delegated the IO to make that decision and using an agent facilitates that decision-  I would expect that agent business will increase- and also fees.  

 

In regard to the poster indicating he uses in bank debits- thanks for the info- I can get  over 100K daily from an ATM- there is a fee but no problem.  As I have often said- Thai Police Order allows situations where applicants use  accounts not in Thailand and can show  income letters; ATM cards etc as proof. I haven't had a Thai bank account for 20 years. Don't need it.

[Runamile]

1 hour ago, totally thaied up said:

It will come in time. You know how slow things can be here. This will have many channels to go through and I can imagine the paperwork building now in Thai Immigration. Unless they just do the 800/400K route (the easy way) or show 65/40K a month in a bank book, it is pretty easy if you got the money. Until the Police Order changes stating anything drastically different, unless the British Embassy does not do a turn around in some way, I can see no other way it can be done. It will bring a lot more work for the IO doing the job. They will have to search the bank books an I think, that would not make them happy searching through for all the deposits and adding them up!

 

Can you see that happening?

There are so many easy ways it could be done, but  not using the existing resource base either at the British or Thai end. Two examples:

 

1. The British Embassy retains but outsources the consular letter on income service, outsourcing to a business that is competent to provide the investigative levels seemingly now expected by the Thai authorities. Embassies in general have and do often outsource, the British Embassy included, where they feel overwhelmed with paperwork, under-qualified or both. It's simply normal practice.

2. That the Thai authorities accept a statement of global income compiled and attested by a qualified Thai accountant. That statement would be in Thai and figures worked to Thai Baht, so alleviating the problem that the Thais have in fact raised about their ability to even read foreign language bank statements.

 

The problem here is that nobody has really considered the issues. Frankly, I doubt that they remotely care. Naturally if they haven't seen problems they won't have gone looking for never mind found solutions. In truth there are many available solutions - if anybody could be bothered

[Runamile]

2 minutes ago, Torrens54 said:

Maybe it’s different for Aussies on SPOUSE VISAS !

 

Every year, for many years, we get a letter from our Thai Bank, a couple of days before fronting Immigration. The Bank’s Certified Letter costs

Baht 100 and it shows there has been a MINIMUM of Baht 400,000 in the account for the prescribed time.  

 

SIMPLE as that!

Year after year, after year.....

So that only leaves a couple of problems, assuming there really is 400,000 Baht in the bank:

1. Having 400,000 Thai Baht.

2. Being willing to tie up a moderate sum of money in a globally useless soft currency of a politically unstable country.

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, Runamile said:

he problem here is that nobody has really considered the issues. Frankly, I doubt that they remotely care. Naturally if they haven't seen problems they won't have gone looking for never mind found solutions. In truth there are many available solutions - if anybody could be bothered

Finally- someone who has hit the nail on the head-  so easily done if one wants to take the time to think it through.  It is amazing to me that the BE can't even read the Thai Police Order- understand the situation and come p with a solution.

 

3000 applicants  x 52 pounds per  person- easy to use that kind of income to do what is needed to satisfy anyone.

[galt67]

4 minutes ago, Runamile said:

So that only leaves a couple of problems, assuming there really is 400,000 Baht in the bank:

1. Having 400,000 Thai Baht.

2. Being willing to tie up a moderate sum of money in a globally useless soft currency of a politically unstable country. 

 

Define a 'hard currency'....?

 

The THB has strengthened against ALL the major currencies over the past 10-15 years. Especially GBP.

[pontious]

16 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Uh... Another UK member said previously that he send the application and the documents by email. How do you want that the BE verify if these documents really exist and/or have not been modified? Not difficult to modify the pdf file that many organisations send. These sent documents certainly prove nothing... IMHO. 

And many embassies are shown nothing and just sign to say Mr Bloggs has said he has a monthly income of 1,000, 000 BAHT and I verify he signed it in my presence. 

That's better????????????/

Edited October 13, 2018 by pontious

[sirineou]

I am not trying to be a smart ass, I simply don't know.

But Don't British citizens who receive income from Britain file a tax return? or online  portals  where individual benefits are listed?

I am American , I can log on to my social security page and review my income for the past year and estimated benefits,I assume when I start collecting SS benefits the same will be reflected there, also my trade union website reflects my monthly pension benefits, 

Why can't the certifying agency (in this case the embassy) log on to these portals and verify income info? (assuming such portals exist for british citizens)

Edited October 13, 2018 by sirineou

[Runamile]

3 minutes ago, galt67 said:

Define a 'hard currency'....?

 

The THB has strengthened against ALL the major currencies over the past 10-15 years. Especially GBP.

Yes, OK, technically that should read reserve currency.

 

[galt67]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I am not trying to be a smart ass, I simply don't know.

But Don't British citizens who receive income from Britain file a tax return? or online  portals  where individual benefits are listed?

I am American , I can log on to my social security page and review my income for the past year and estimated benefits,I assume when I start collecting SS benefits the same will be reflected there, also my trade union website reflects my monthly pension benefits, 

Why can't the certifying agency (in this case the embassy) log on to these portals and verify income info? (assuming such portals exist for british citizens)

What if you have income (rental, copyright, dividends, etc) that is not so easily 'verifiable'?

 

Yes, 'pension' income should easy to verify in most cases however I know MANY retired with 'pension income' much less than the thresholds. They might(?) however have other income sources though.

[Runamile]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

I am not trying to be a smart ass, I simply don't know.

But Don't British citizens who receive income from Britain file a tax return? or online  portals  where individual benefits are listed?

I am American , I can log on to my social security page and review my income for the past year and estimated benefits,I assume when I start collecting SS benefits the same will be reflected there, also my trade union website reflects my monthly pension benefits, 

Why can't the certifying agency (in this case the embassy) log on to these portals and verify income info? 

The Embassy are arguing that the very latest data protection legislation causes issues. That is correct, but not a major problem. We just give permission to share (I did it a few weeks ago about insurance companies sharing information on me). My guess is that for most of us three or four of those share permissions would cover the situation - and remember there's no great need to show all our income, just the equivalent of 65KBaht a month.

[JLCrab]

My plan, should I need to support the 65K baht per month US income affidavit, is to have 4 ATM withdrawal slips each from a US bank account (at maximum 20K baht per withdrawal) with the 220 baht fee to prove it was a foreign transaction (reimbursed each month by my US bank) and then pictures of an assortment of Thai women young and old to show that there is no way I could be withdrawing the money, not spending it in Thailand, and then just redepositing the same money each month as a revolving door account.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, galt67 said:

What if you have income (rental, copyright, dividends, etc) that is not so easily 'verifiable'?

 

Yes, 'pension' income should easy to verify in most cases however I know MANY retired with 'pension income' much less than the thresholds. They might(?) however have other income sources though.

You are right about that,

but don't British citizens report income from rentals, copyrights dividend;s etc? Dont British citizens pay taxes for such transactions? I know that in the US if you have a minimum income (which is higher than the income we are claiming to have in Thailand) you have to file a tax return.

And even if there is income the embay can't verify, can't they at least verify the income they could verify? Why penalise everyone because they cant verify some? 

[pontious]

2 minutes ago, Runamile said:

The Embassy are arguing that the very latest data protection legislation causes issues. That is correct, but not a major problem. We just give permission to share (I did it a few weeks ago about insurance companies sharing information on me). My guess is that for most of us three or four of those share permissions would cover the situation - and remember there's no great need to show all our income, just the equivalent of 65KBaht a month.

I doubt any Embassy have the time, staff. I do not think any Embassy would do that. The simple solution would be to get the BE to do statdec / affidavits like the US Embassy . The BE would probably say Thai Immigration will not accept that - they want verification - which no Embassy can do to be frank.

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, pontious said:

Then why not say no change. No need to evaluate anything.

You can't be that naive. You never say something definitive that might come back to bite you in your State Dept career path.

 

why would they write a bunch of meaningless crap about the Outreach program when they had no intention of evaluating or changing what their current policy was? It's called covering your bureaucratic a$$ by using words that signify nothing.

 

You can see how much of a brouhaha the folks at the British embassy have caused by making declaritive pronouncements. Better for them if they just said they were evaluating their options and left everyone hanging.  

 

And incidentally one TV member called an acquaintance at the embassy who ( unofficially) said there was no change, nothing to worry about. It's posted somewhere in the masses of posts in the several threads running.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Suradit69

[sirineou]

14 minutes ago, Runamile said:

The Embassy are arguing that the very latest data protection legislation causes issues. That is correct, but not a major problem. We just give permission to share (I did it a few weeks ago about insurance companies sharing information on me). My guess is that for most of us three or four of those share permissions would cover the situation - and remember there's no great need to show all our income, just the equivalent of 65KBaht a month.

don't the fact that you request the info is verified for dissemination to the Thai authorities and make an application for that purpose implies de facto permission?   

Edited October 13, 2018 by sirineou
typo

[HHTel]

2 hours ago, Noreya said:

Signed by the consulate

 

Signed by the citizen, witnessed by the consulate.

[pontious]

I think this will be resolved. They have to June 2019 to sort this out.

Do you honestly think there will be 2 rules.

1. For everybody [ except Brits ] 

2. For Brits

For non Brits I would say the worry should be if there Embassies go the way the BE has.

[david555]

2 minutes ago, pontious said:

I think this will be resolved. They have to June 2019 to sort this out.

Do you honestly think there will be 2 rules.

1. For everybody [ except Brits ] 

2. For Brits

For non Brits I would say the worry should be if there Embassies go the way the BE has.

some of them ask documentation for the affidavit

[sambum]

31 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I am not trying to be a smart ass, I simply don't know.

But Don't British citizens who receive income from Britain file a tax return? or online  portals  where individual benefits are listed?

I am American , I can log on to my social security page and review my income for the past year and estimated benefits,I assume when I start collecting SS benefits the same will be reflected there, also my trade union website reflects my monthly pension benefits, 

Why can't the certifying agency (in this case the embassy) log on to these portals and verify income info? (assuming such portals exist for british citizens)

Data Protection Act

[cyberfarang]

Nothing confusing about this as far as I`m concerned.

 

It`s obvious the British Embassy don`t know anything about the requirements of Thai immigration. The embassy have stated that clarification based on monthly income is acceptable by Thai immigration, but they have quoted misinformation, as this method will not be accepted without an embassy letter and without proof of income from the actual sources of where that income comes from.

 

This means that Thai immigration will still accept a letter from an embassy and proof of source of income, but if not possible to obtain a letter then this means the only option now open to those without letters is the 400000 baht marrieds or 800000 baht retirement funds in a Thai bank account.

 

What is so difficult to understand about that?

[pontious]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

some of them ask documentation for the affidavit

The BE insist on documentation - otherwise you will not get it. So that argument does not work.

[Suradit69]

17 minutes ago, pontious said:

they want verification - which no Embassy can do to be frank.

I think they've already admitted that they never bothered to do anything in the way of checking beyond looking at what people showed them. That's  what caused the change. They knew they weren't really verifying anything and the implication that they were was misleading.

[55Jay]

Just now, sirineou said:

I am not trying to be a smart ass, I simply don't know.

But Don't British citizens who receive income from Britain file a tax return? or online  portals  where individual benefits are listed?

I am American , I can log on to my social security page and review my income for the past year and estimated benefits,I assume when I start collecting SS benefits the same will be reflected there, also my trade union website reflects my monthly pension benefits, 

Why can't the certifying agency (in this case the embassy) log on to these portals and verify income info? 

Broadly speaking, bureaucratic rice bowls and data/privacy issues.  Having worked for government, security clearances, etc., confident in saying an Embassy abroad wouldn't be given access across multiple systems in this way, and certainly not for a low level requirement like this.  It's just not that important. 

 

Even if they could verify Social Security, for example, which is technically possible with the right IT reach back and permissions, that would certainly cover a lot of Americans here. 

 

Problem is, SS amount may not be sufficient on its own, so they may also have private pensions, investments, rental income, etc., to hit the 65k/mo amount.  There's no sensible, efficient way for the Embassy to verify that.

 

I think the US and other Embassies here who do similar "STATDEC" type letters have it right.  If Thai Immigration thinks an applicant isn't being truthful, they have the authority, and every right, to demand further documentation.

 

[pontious]

4 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

think the US and other Embassies here who do similar "STATDEC" type letters have it right.  If Thai Immigration thinks an applicant isn't being truthful, they have the authority, and every right, to demand further documentation.

 

I agree but the BE have said Thai Immigration want it verified which IMHO is impossible for any Embassy

[david555]

7 minutes ago, pontious said:

The BE insist on documentation - otherwise you will not get it. So that argument does not work.

At the first moment I got the news I contacted my Belgium embassy and they mailed me back that they have no plans to change the delivery of the affidavit as they do now , we even do this by mail .Important point we are registered at the embassy as living in Thailand ,they have all our I.D's