Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[pontious]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

At the first moment I got the news I contacted my Belgium embassy and they mailed me back that they have no plans to change the delivery of the affidavit as they do now , we even do this by mail .Important point we are registered at the embassy as living in Thailand ,they have all our I.D's 

So they do not verify your income. That is what this all started with. The BE being told they must verify the income. Your Embassy either has not been told or they said ' up to them'.

[Expattaff1308]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Uh... Another UK member said previously that he send the application and the documents by email. How do you want that the BE verify if these documents really exist and/or have not been modified? Not difficult to modify the pdf file that many organisations send. These sent documents certainly prove nothing... IMHO.

Mine comes by post and I send the originals by post you seem to think we are all crooked. I really cant see the Civil Service and DWP falsifying figures to meet my needs, maybe you should look closer to home before accusing genuine retirees on good pensions.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[55Jay]

Just now, pontious said:

I agree but the BE have said Thai Immigration want it verified which IMHO is impossible for any Embassy

I know, right?  Same requirement for all of us. 

 

Yet, nobody else seems to be having a problem.  Odd, innit?  ????

[david555]

7 minutes ago, pontious said:

So they do not verify your income. That is what this all started with. The BE being told they must verify the income. Your Embassy either has not been told or they said ' up to them'.

I think you are difficult in understanding , I told before they checked it as I send them my attestification I ask en receive yearly from our government pension service which state my monthly pension  I receive  , and more I ask always one with a nice purple seal on it , as I know civil servants allover the globe like this . So my Embassy can see it ...

Understand it now …?\Even I use the 800K , but I am always in touch with plan B the combination method as one never knows what can go wrong

Edited October 13, 2018 by david555

[pontious]

2 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Yet, nobody else seems to be having a problem.  Odd, innit? 

No - the BE should have done nothing { and like everything in Thailand it would have quietly gone away  or forgotten ] now it could be a mess for everyone.

[Jingthing]

What if you have income (rental, copyright, dividends, etc) that is not so easily 'verifiable'?
 
Yes, 'pension' income should easy to verify in most cases however I know MANY retired with 'pension income' much less than the thresholds. They might(?) however have other income sources though.

Then currently anyway the combination method may be used.

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[pontious]

3 minutes ago, david555 said:

I think you are difficult in understanding , I told before they checked it as I send them my attestification I ask en receive yearly from our government pension service which state my monthly pension  I receive  , and more I ask always one with a nice purple seal on it , as I know civil servants allover the globe like this . So my Embassy can see it ...

Understand it now …?\Even I use the 800K , but I am always in touch with plan B the combination method as one never knows what can go wrong

I was not criticizing - may people use many income feeds, rentals, investments etc etc not just pensions. The point I am trying to make is an attestaion  is NOT a verification.

[55Jay]

13 minutes ago, pontious said:

No - the BE should have done nothing { and like everything in Thailand it would have quietly gone away  or forgotten ] now it could be a mess for everyone.

Yes, I think so.  Seems to have worked for the others.  Somebody over there at the BE spit the dummy on this one, and now they are doubling down. 

 

My prediction is BE will roll over and carry on doing the letters, perhaps adopting clear "We don't guarantee nuffin' " verbiage like the Yanks and others.  If the Thais think someone's trying to pull a fast one, they have every right to ask for more evidence which, for the Brits, should be easy as they have it in hand already. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by 55Jay

[david555]

2 minutes ago, pontious said:

I was not criticizing - may people use many income feeds, rentals, investments etc etc not just pensions. The point I am trying to make is an attestaion  is NOT a verification.

That seal document states to my embassy what I receive , so they can with a clear honest mind deliver that affidavit... , or do you think they do not recognize their own country official seals or email addresses on it ? if they would control it is easy contacting  , I think just your embassy is dusting it of their job plan ,I think they even go move away or at least limit all they are doing  ,  

[pontious]

3 minutes ago, david555 said:

That seal document states to my embassy what I receive , so they can with a clear honest mind deliver that affidavit... , or do you think they do not recognize their own country official seals or email addresses on it ? if they would control it is easy contacting  , I think just your embassy is dusting it of their job plan ,I think they even go move away or at least limit all they are doing  ,  

I do not want to argue. An affidavit is not a verification. The UK pension is obviously not as generous as yours. If I had a UK government pension of 65000 Baht per month and I had a nice letter from DWP [ government pensions ] and a seal the BE would say they cannot verify it.

[david555]

2 minutes ago, pontious said:

I do not want to argue. An affidavit is not a verification. The UK pension is obviously not as generous as yours. If I had a UK government pension of 65000 Baht per month and I had a nice letter from DWP [ government pensions ] and a seal the BE would say they cannot verify it.

About that I go not argue …. as now you start admitting they are just stopping a service with any excuse...., as final the ultimate proof is when they see you getting the money in hand given  (lol), as even a tax letter they would say same ……

thank god I am not a Brit these days .

 

In that way they shall wave away ANY document ….. so no hope of an understanding with them I fear ….. wishing you Brits  all the best to find solution

 

[newatthis]

6 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

I am no snitch..

Why?  If you know under age kids are involved, what's so evil about grassing on someone? 

[55Jay]

5 minutes ago, pontious said:

I do not want to argue. An affidavit is not a verification. The UK pension is obviously not as generous as yours. If I had a UK government pension of 65000 Baht per month and I had a nice letter from DWP [ government pensions ] and a seal the BE would say they cannot verify it.

Well, with enough resources, legal authority and a mandate to justify the kind of broad access necessary, and the time it would take to do each one, they "could" verify it. 

 

It's simply not a priority.  Seems they can't even be bothered to do what they are doing now. 

[ajnamoon]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

You cannot get yearly extensions outside Thailand, you get 90 day visa's in Lao

Really    thats strange   as when i first came here  i got a one year retirement extension from Thai  Consulate  in  Hull    UK

Edited October 13, 2018 by ajnamoon
error

[pontious]

3 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Well, with enough resources, legal authority and a mandate to justify the kind of broad access necessary, and the time it would take to do each one, they "could" verify it. 

 

It's simply not a priority.  Seems they can't even be bothered to do what they are doing now. 

Do you know of any embassies who verify - I have not heard of any.

Why should the BE.

 

[55Jay]

Just now, pontious said:

Do you know of any embassies who verify - I have not heard of any.

Why should the BE.

Nope.  That's the 65,000 Baht question.  ????

 

I rather doubt Thai Immigration could verify non-government income in Thailand on demand, repeatedly, for 1,000s of people.  They are mired in their provincial rice bowls and red tape to the extent they may not even trust the veracity of their own documents among themselves.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by 55Jay

[Wanderlust]

While I agree that the BE could have handled this better, ultimately it should fall on the Thai Immigration department to actually verify whether an applicants income is what they are stating and producing documents about, as Thai immigration are the ones who are demanding the verification. As has been said multiple times already, bank statements or bank letters from either Thailand or from the applicants country, or both, should be sufficient, but if they are not satisfied with those, it is up to the Thais to either ask for more supporting proof or contact the banks with the applicants approval. The involvement of the embassies has never made any sense as they are legally unable to verify anything other than a very narrow part of the wide range of incomes people may have, and to be honest, why should they? As a very simple contrast, immigration except a bank letter and statements for the lump sum method, so why is it such a stretch for them to accept similar for regular income?

[david555]

18 minutes ago, pontious said:

Do you know of any embassies who verify - I have not heard of any.

Why should the BE.

 

By pm I send you what I give to my embassy and that is the proof I deliver , they can check or not check their government doc. , like you explain nothing is controllable by them Brit .Emb. even any other document can so waived away .

They want to stop the service ….and that's the whole point...,

anyway for me this is all I can explain how most E.U embassy's do for us .

Maybe best to start saving as I did , years ago  to play safe , as for the combination method it is the same problem , less money to put on top to reach 800 000K , but again ….. proof. How? 

Edited October 13, 2018 by david555

[pontious]

8 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Nope.  That's the 65,000 Baht question. 

I like it - probably in our time it was the 64000 dollar question.

I am lucky to qualify on any qualification they want so am not to bothered.

As a Brit though I am sad to say the BE have really shot themselves in the foot in this matter. It could affect all nationalities.

[Jingthing]

Really    thats strange   as when i first came here  i got a one year retirement extension from Thai  Consulate  in  Hull    UK

No you didn't. Not possible. Sounds like an OA visa. Not the same thing.

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[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Mine comes by post and I send the originals by post you seem to think we are all crooked. I really cant see the Civil Service and DWP falsifying figures to meet my needs, maybe you should look closer to home before accusing genuine retirees on good pensions.

Oh no no, I certainly not think so. Not ALL!

Just that there are A FEW such people (as probably in all countries) that cheated when getting their letter, and in a number large enough to push Immigration to act against that.

Could be that UK retirees are now under scrutiny as were Americans a few years back. (Story of American retirees at Phuket unable to pay their hospital bills...)

BTW I never talked (or thought) about UK officials falsifying figures, but rather about people here falsifying themselves the documents they sent by email to the BE. Not difficult to do, but difficult for the BE to notice it.

[Orac]

While I agree that the BE could have handled this better, ultimately it should fall on the Thai Immigration department to actually verify whether an applicants income is what they are stating and producing documents about, as Thai immigration are the ones who are demanding the verification. As has been said multiple times already, bank statements or bank letters from either Thailand or from the applicants country, or both, should be sufficient, but if they are not satisfied with those, it is up to the Thais to either ask for more supporting proof or contact the banks with the applicants approval. The involvement of the embassies has never made any sense as they are legally unable to verify anything other than a very narrow part of the wide range of incomes people may have, and to be honest, why should they? As a very simple contrast, immigration except a bank letter and statements for the lump sum method, so why is it such a stretch for them to accept similar for regular income?

Thai logic and love of ‘verification’. Money in a Thai Bank does not just require the bank book but a letter of verification from the bank. For a marriage extension not only do they need that proof of marriage which is the marriage cert but also verification from the amphur that you are still married every year. For the income method, though documents such as pension letter and statements are available they still look for some sort of official verification and, since this income comes from outside Thailand, the only official route is realistically the Embassy.


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[Jingthing]

Thai logic and love of ‘verification’. Money in a Thai Bank does not just require the bank book but a letter of verification from the bank. For a marriage extension not only do they need that proof of marriage which is the marriage cert but also verification from the amphur that you are still married every year. For the income method, though documents such as pension letter and statements are available they still look for some sort of official verification and, since this income comes from outside Thailand, the only official route is realistically the Embassy.


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It really could be worse. At least they don't require official translations to Thai from English or the dreaded apostle monster!

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[Jip99]

44 minutes ago, newatthis said:

Why?  If you know under age kids are involved, what's so evil about grassing on someone? 

 

 

See post #205

[Orac]

It really could be worse. At least they don't require official translations to Thai from English or the dreaded apostle monster!

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The whole thing is a can of worms which the BE have opened and asks questions of Thai Immigration that are best left alone not least what do they mean by income and why set these financial limits if the money doesn’t have to be brought into Thailand.


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[55Jay]

Just now, pontious said:

I like it - probably in our time it was the 64000 dollar question.

I am lucky to qualify on any qualification they want so am not to bothered.

As a Brit though I am sad to say the BE have really shot themselves in the foot in this matter. It could affect all nationalities.

I rather like the suggestion made earlier, or in a related thread, about "life time" Government/State pensions.  Vett the applicant's identification thoroughly, verify the pension and register that with the Embassy.  It would be a front end work load investment but once it's done, it's done.  

 

Speaking from the American perspective, ideally, I could request a letter from the Embassy on-line with a 2-step security check of some kind.  They spit out the letter and mail it to me - pay by credit card, bank transfer, whatever...

 

I don't have to drag my ass down to BKK, and they have one less warm body clogging up their security check point and service desk. 

 

Granted, it would only save work load for those with pensions that satisfy the 65k requirement, or cash top up.  Bringing private income sources into the mix puts you back in the same boat. 

[rayw]

9 hours ago, Geck0 said:

or...

Yes and its alwasy been OR.  Just need to comply with one of the three stated methods.  Why was this not picked up by the poster and everyoen else as it is perfectly well written in unambigious English, which is commendable indeed for the Immigration office here, well done. 

 

I use the Embassy Income verification letter so this is going to be a bastard for me.  Reason is I do not need to transfer all teh required 65K Baht a month to my THia bank account.  I also use my UK credit/debiut card which is stil the same as bringing foreign currency into THialand and then pay of the credti card accoutn in sterline at the end of each month, an dinterest free.  Can be the cheapest and easist way to work it but now I see UK bank account transferes to THailand are free in teh UK and onlyh a flat £8 charge this end so that will be a better and now cheaper way too.  But I really do not want to bring all the 65K into Thailand each month to be honest as I do not need to for my own needs these days and now I will bloody well have to.  I also as a pensioner, along with most ordinary UK pensioners I know here, do not have a spare 800K Baht sitting around to wallow uselessly in a Thai bank account so I need to use the regular UK income verification system as many others do too.  Why to the British Embassyu in Bangkok simply not bloody well care hmm ????

 

All a gross and totally unacceptable inconvenience caused unnecessarily by a truly crass apalling lack of care and service for British nationals living overseas, by our truly crap UK Governmnt !!!   I wonder if Corbyn will be willing to change this back as he is at least a man of the people, for the many not the few hmm.  We shall see all too soon I reckon, and good riddance to this current crap don't care lot in Dwoning Street.

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, sambum said:

Data Protection Act

Yes but isn't the fact that you make a signed application  to have this information verified for release to Thai authorities a de facto permission to release the information limited by the scope of the application? absolving then from the limitations imposed upon them by the Data Protection Act. 

[sambum]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

Yes but isn't the fact that you make a signed application  to have this information verified for release to Thai authorities a de facto permission to release the information limited by the scope of the application? absolving then from the limitations imposed upon them by the Data Protection Act. 

"verified" being what the fuss is all about!

[rayw]

2 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

Nothing confusing about this as far as I`m concerned.

 

It`s obvious the British Embassy don`t know anything about the requirements of Thai immigration. The embassy have stated that clarification based on monthly income is acceptable by Thai immigration, but they have quoted misinformation, as this method will not be accepted without an embassy letter and without proof of income from the actual sources of where that income comes from.

 

This means that Thai immigration will still accept a letter from an embassy and proof of source of income, but if not possible to obtain a letter then this means the only option now open to those without letters is the 400000 baht marrieds or 800000 baht retirement funds in a Thai bank account.

 

What is so difficult to understand about that?

Nothing difficult for anyone to understand.  BUT most Brit pensioners here just have not got a spare 800K lying aroujnd but they have more than sufficient monthly income.  They are pensioners living off their pensions and any assets they have are usually tied up with their wives in their personal residential property here.  So for many there is no teniable alternative to the income confirmation letter and for very many they have honestly and legally made their retiremnt home here with no UK assets to go back to !!!   So what is difficult to understand about that ??  

 

So what the UK Embassy is doing is totally criminal treating their many Ex Pat nationals, mostly pensioners, with such utter contempt  !!!!!!!!   It is totally unacceptable and pressure must be born to force them to see common sense and some decency and respect for their Ex Pat nationals living here and mostly still paying UK income tax on their pensions too.  This is not the Thai Immigrations fault at all as in fact they are being perfectly fair and to be honest very reasonable and sensible in laying down these minimum income or capital requirements to ensure we are not going to be a burden to Thailand rather an asset and a benefit to the country.  The British Embassy have a duty of care to it's Ex Pat nationals livning overseas, so they must not be allowed to abdicate this important responsibility as it is their job they are paid to do. 

 

As I said in the other thread it should be very easy to be able to verify income using the UK Governmetn data network linking to the Inland Revenue department, which can then easily show the persons tax code and earnings which should be exactly as claimed by the applicant for the income confirmation letter.  It should be very simple once set up and not time consumming at all, and especially so for the rip off price they charge for this letter.  So there is NO EXCUSE IMHO.