UK Embassy Letters - The Way Forward.

[Ron19]

An off topic post and answers to it have been removed.

[Esso49]

44 minutes ago, lovinglife said:

She is the head of that department of the Embassy and she sounded pretty clear about it to me. BE is not asking TI to change its rules, these changes are the result of a meeting between the two in May.

 

No chance the Embassy will revert.

 

Number of letters is apparently about 3,000 per year.

She is currently the incompetent head of her section at the British Embassy. 

[Jesse123]

The email I received from Sarah Peth (Deputy Consul and Head of Operations) states that the only way to get an extension to stay is to have the required funds in the bank seasoned as required. No mention of the income route which is on the web site. The Embassy have washed their hands of the issue - she did refer me to the Embassy statement which still gives the false impression proof of income is an acceptable way of obtaining an extension.

"

I am sorry to learn that you are unhappy with the announcement that we intend to withdraw from providing a Pension letter in Thailand from 1 January 2019.  I appreciate the difficulties that can accompany such a change in services.

 

Our British Embassy in Bangkok currently issues a pension letter as a supporting document for British nationals applying for a Thai retirement or marriage visa application.  The Thai authorities have confirmed that they want the British Embassy to verify the income of British nationals which they are unable to do.  They/We would refer such requests to the issuing authority.   Therefore, the current letter does not fulfil the Thai authorities requirements so we need to stop issuing it so it is not misinterpreted as verification.

 

When withdrawing a service we do look at what other options are available to the customer to assist them in meeting the requirements of the receiving authority.  There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

 

To assist customers, our Embassy in Bangkok has published details on their website of the change in service and what option is available to customers and what those requirements are.  Further details can be found at:   https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters"

 

[Esso49]

3 minutes ago, Jesse123 said:

The email I received from Sarah Peth (Deputy Consul and Head of Operations) states that the only way to get an extension to stay is to have the required funds in the bank seasoned as required. No mention of the income route which is on the web site. The Embassy have washed their hands of the issue - she did refer me to the Embassy statement which still gives the false impression proof of income is an acceptable way of obtaining an extension.

"

I am sorry to learn that you are unhappy with the announcement that we intend to withdraw from providing a Pension letter in Thailand from 1 January 2019.  I appreciate the difficulties that can accompany such a change in services.

 

Our British Embassy in Bangkok currently issues a pension letter as a supporting document for British nationals applying for a Thai retirement or marriage visa application.  The Thai authorities have confirmed that they want the British Embassy to verify the income of British nationals which they are unable to do.  They/We would refer such requests to the issuing authority.   Therefore, the current letter does not fulfil the Thai authorities requirements so we need to stop issuing it so it is not misinterpreted as verification.

 

When withdrawing a service we do look at what other options are available to the customer to assist them in meeting the requirements of the receiving authority.  There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

 

To assist customers, our Embassy in Bangkok has published details on their website of the change in service and what option is available to customers and what those requirements are.  Further details can be found at:   https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters"

 

why repeat something that has been posted many times before  in other threads - don't you read them ?

 

Go to jail,  do not pass go,  do not collect 200 pounds !!

[cleverman]

4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I have no intentions of leaving Thailand-ever- luckily I have other options to stay-  my angst is that there will be others who have to  make more sacrifices to remain and for no other reason that BE and Thai Imm cannot  sit down and find a workable compromise.  This  is a perfect example of 'A failure to communicate'.

Cool Hand Luke. Two topics, coupla thousand posts and not one of them is gunna make an iota of diff to the outcome. We have a saying in Oz, no darn good shutting the bloody farm gate once the Roos have eaten the crop. 

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, Jesse123 said:

When withdrawing a service we do look at what other options are available to the customer to assist them in meeting the requirements of the receiving authority.  There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

So- in essence the BE is changing the  way Thai Imm operates for British citizens. They withhold the letter and the citizen has no other choice. It appears they have no intention of doing any negotiation with Thai Imm in either Bangkok or Pattaya as was mentioned in the radio interview.  Any further comment or providing them options is falling on deaf and uncaring ears.

[cleverman]

8 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

why repeat something that has been posted many times before  in other threads - don't you read them ?

 

Go to jail,  do not pass go,  do not collect 200 pounds !!

You hit the nail on the head. Some people will just not accept facts. 

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, cleverman said:

ou hit the nail on the head. Some people will just not accept facts. 

The facts are the facts but there are alot of people that have a bad taste in their mouth from the way this has been handled and suspect that  their overseas representative who is paid by taxpayer money has not been forthright nor will  negotiate in good faith or at all. It will be interesting to read the Freedom of Information commentary which may shed more light on how this all went down.

[Lovethailandelite]

There will be no more announcements from the British Embassy. The announcement is posted in the link below which leads you to the official UK government website. The British Embassy could not comply with what the Thai authorities were asking which was to verify the income of British nationals which they cannot do. BE staff were not alone in the negotiations. Representatives from other Embassy's involved in issuing pension/income letters attended the exact same meetings. None of them could categorically verify there citizens income statements the way Thailand requires. Sarah Perth was 100% correct when she made the statement regarding other Embassy's being unable to verify the required information. At the end of the negotiations the BE felt it prudent to give as much notice as possible to it's citizens in order for them to make other arrangements as per the link below.
How and when other Embassy's decide to notify there citizens of future arrangements with regard to being able to reside in Thailand, is a matter for them to decide.   

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

here will be no more announcements from the British Embassy. The announcement is posted in the link below which leads you to the official UK government website. The British Embassy could not comply with what the Thai authorities were asking which was to verify the income of British nationals which they cannot do. BE staff were not alone in the negotiations. Representatives from other Embassy's involved in issuing pension/income letters attended the exact same meetings. None of them could categorically verify there citizens income statements the way Thailand requires. Sarah Perth was 100% correct when she made the statement regarding other Embassy's being unable to verify the required information. At the end of the negotiations the BE felt it prudent to give as much notice as possible to it's citizens in order for them to make other arrangements as per the link below.
How and when other Embassy's decide to notify there citizens of future arrangements with regard to being able to reside in Thailand, is a matter for them to decide.   

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters

Are you  speaking as a representative of the Embassy who actually knows what happened or are you a private citizen giving your opinion?

[Esso49]

8 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

There will be no more announcements from the British Embassy. The announcement is posted in the link below which leads you to the official UK government website. The British Embassy could not comply with what the Thai authorities were asking which was to verify the income of British nationals which they cannot do. BE staff were not alone in the negotiations. Representatives from other Embassy's involved in issuing pension/income letters attended the exact same meetings. None of them could categorically verify there citizens income statements the way Thailand requires. Sarah Perth was 100% correct when she made the statement regarding other Embassy's being unable to verify the required information. At the end of the negotiations the BE felt it prudent to give as much notice as possible to it's citizens in order for them to make other arrangements as per the link below.
How and when other Embassy's decide to notify there citizens of future arrangements with regard to being able to reside in Thailand, is a matter for them to decide.   

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters

I suspect that this post was on a par with the level of BS that this post identifies. Once the exact information is revealed as the FCO s obliged to reveal under the FOI act I would expect to see resignations if what has been implied, and countered by other countries own Embassy statements,are proven to be sound evidence to the contrary that the BE has knowingly misled.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Esso49

[tgeezer]

The email I received from Sarah Peth (Deputy Consul and Head of Operations) states that the only way to get an extension to stay is to have the required funds in the bank seasoned as required. No mention of the income route which is on the web site. The Embassy have washed their hands of the issue - she did refer me to the Embassy statement which still gives the false impression proof of income is an acceptable way of obtaining an extension.
"

I am sorry to learn that you are unhappy with the announcement that we intend to withdraw from providing a Pension letter in Thailand from 1 January 2019.  I appreciate the difficulties that can accompany such a change in services.

 

Our British Embassy in Bangkok currently issues a pension letter as a supporting document for British nationals applying for a Thai retirement or marriage visa application.  The Thai authorities have confirmed that they want the British Embassy to verify the income of British nationals which they are unable to do.  They/We would refer such requests to the issuing authority.   Therefore, the current letter does not fulfil the Thai authorities requirements so we need to stop issuing it so it is not misinterpreted as verification.

 

When withdrawing a service we do look at what other options are available to the customer to assist them in meeting the requirements of the receiving authority.  There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

 

To assist customers, our Embassy in Bangkok has published details on their website of the change in service and what option is available to customers and what those requirements are.  Further details can be found at:   https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters"

 

‘Customers’!
Is the damned embassy a shop? Where is it by the way? In an upstairs room of a Chinese restaurant I shouldn’t wonder.


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[Snow Leopard]

On 10/20/2018 at 11:02 AM, Thaidream said:

Agree completely- The results of the negotiation between BE and Thai Imm should be that Thai Imm accepts the following methods to prove Income of 65K/40K

 

1.  Letters from Pension provider or other provider showing amount deposited each month

2.  Foreign Bank Statement showing same amounts as above direct deposited to an account- showing Amount , date, and originator- Amounts should match the letters in 1 (If Bank shows  location of debits as Thailand- this page included)

3.  If Transfer to a Thai Bank- show  Thai Bank statement/  If  not transferred to Thai Bank- show foreign debit cards used to access funds and/or Thai ATM slips representing a few months withdrawals

4.  If depositing 65K/40K per month into a Thai Bank by cash- show Thai bank book as proof.

 

If the BE can guarantee Thai Imm will accept the above- there should be no issue  with NO  Embassy Letter and  they (BE) should issue a letter in Thai/English  provided to each citizen - indicating No BE Letter can be issued but negotiation between BE and Thai Imm has resulted in Thai Imm accepting the following forms of proving income  etc, etc. signed by the  ranking BE official.  

 

The fact is that Thai Imm when presented with an Embassy Letter has accepted the above as added proof of income.

 

If BE does nothing except stop the letter- I am afraid that the result will be rather chaotic or Thai Imm will will hold the applicant responsible for not having the letter.

Well said. That is the way to go. There is no reason that they cannot do this. 

[Lovethailandelite]

29 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

I suspect that this post was on a par with the level of BS that this post identifies. Once the exact information is revealed as the FCO s obliged to reveal under the FOI act I would expect to see resignations if what has been implied, and countered by other countries own Embassy statements,are proven to be sound evidence to the contrary that the BE has knowingly misled.

There will be NO resignations, simply for there being no reason to be any.
I suggest you Contact Consular services at the BE Bangkok if you are a UK citizen and the statement posted on the www.gov./uk website is not clear in your way forward. 

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

There will be NO resignations, simply for there being no reason to be any.
I suggest you Contact Consular services at the BE Bangkok if you are a UK citizen and the statement posted on the www.gov./uk website is not clear in your way forward. 

Do you work at the British Embassy? Or another Embassy ? Are you speaking as an employee or are you simply an interested citizen with an opinion?  Everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you work at the Embassy- your opinion and information carries some authority.  

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

on't wind the BE troll up, he just wastes bandwidth !

If what he states is  correct- BE should at the least issue a letter in Thai/English signed by their senior rep indicating the BE is no longer able to issue an Embassy Letter for their citizens and  is discontinuing this practice.  The letter can go on to say that they have advised their citizens to follow Thai Law and present income information direct to  the Thai Immigration.

 

This letter should be on their Web Site and printable and can be taken with a citizen to Thai Imm to hopefully pave the way for a favorable outcome.

[Expattaff1308]

This is the email for complaints regarding Consular Services

http://[email protected]

[yang123]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

‘Customers’!
Is the damned embassy a shop? Where is it by the way? In an upstairs room of a Chinese restaurant I shouldn’t wonder.

Quite right - 'customer' is so 20th century.  I thought we were all 'stake-holders' or 'clients' now..... 

[Mike Teavee]

17 hours ago, Thaidream said:

They have accepted them in the past for me when asked and for others who have posted on this forum- mostly in CM and mostly Americans.  There is no way to verify income with 100% accuracy but when you present a pension letter and back it up with a bank statement showing the exact amount of funds that are on the pension letter going into the bank in the same amount each month and then show the debits coming out in Thailand- it is pretty certain that it is accurate.

Thai Imm easily followed my explanation and understood completely what the letters and bank statement said.

If the letters/statements were on headed paper then there's a higher probability that they're genuine, but it's not difficult to fake these things (including the headed paper part, just takes a more expensive scanner/printer/paper).

 

So many questions about how this would work... 

1. Will they expect the letters/statements to be sent to your home address in Thailand ? - This could cause a number of issues for Brits - 1) Does their bank allow Overseas account holders, will they post to an Overseas address? 2) They would need to tell the Pensions department that they lived overseas = Frozen Pension 3) Potentially no more renewing of driving license, Loss of access to NHS etc... 
2. How many months will they want to see?
3. What is & isn't acceptable to Thai Immigration 1) Can reasonably expect them to go through a statement in English, but in Greek (I'm using this as an example as in the phrase "It's all Greek to me") 2) Can't reasonably expect Thai immigration to go things like Consolidated Tax Certificates & understand what is & isn't Income - E.g. Would Scrip Dividends count - They're income but you don't get any cash? 3) Can't reasonably expect them to go through a Tax Return (Sh1t I don't understand mine & I provide all of the numbers to my accountant to file it).

... That I just can't see Thai Immigration doing it.

 

Once again it's a case of the few exploiting a lenient system & the many genuine people suffering.

 

 

As an aside, does anybody know whether this impacts getting the Non-O in the 1st place? - When I got mine in Penang I was advised that I needed a Letter of Income as well as the 800K in the Bank, are they going to accept Bank Statements showing money going in instead? - Who Knows!?!?!?

Edited October 23, 2018 by Mike Teavee
spelling

[NanLaew]

On 10/22/2018 at 4:16 PM, Kadilo said:

There has been no official notice to that effect that I’ve seen. Sounds like maybe hearsay based on what BE initially rumoured?

It's also commonly known as shooting the messenger.

[NanLaew]

21 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

They state a annual income on the letter but do not require 12 months of proof. They convert a proven monthly income to one year.

Many people only present bank statements for 2 or 3 months showing the income going into a bank.

I think the confusion between applicants showing 12 months of income versus the need to show only a few months of income is partly due to the BE's 'spreadheet' being a bit pension-centric (a monthly stipend) and indicating numbers need to be 'divided by 12'. This despite the fact that it only has 5 lines for inputting data!

 

I think I am correct in saying that in a some countries, a single payslip can be accepted as proof of income for (say) establishing a line of credit as long as the payslip is not more than 3 months old. Wish it was that easy here.

 

If, as suggested elsewhere, the Immigration officer will accept proof of income as evidenced in a Thai bank account in the applicants name, is it reasonable to suggest they will similarly only need to see a few months of income that meets their monthly minimums criteria or would it be best to get an annual statement of account from the bank's head office? I would probably do both, just in case.

[tgeezer]

Quite right - 'customer' is so 20th century.  I thought we were all 'stake-holders' or 'clients' now..... 

Customer was adopted by travel companies when they realised that it was safer to be a purveyor of tickets rather than a provider of transportaion. The embassy lady probably worked in Sainsbury's where staff are all colleagues!


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[NanLaew]

21 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I don’t know whether breaking an oath is worse than presenting forged documents, both could be very hot water.

The general ignorance of the penalties for making a false statement is probably only surpassed by ignorance of the significant implications of making a false statutory declaration. The 'who's going to check?' attitude of someone availing themselves of a statutory declaration method who in reality does not have the funds places the burden of proof on that individual only if challenged to do so. Unlikely?

 

For the likes of an American or an Australian, fraudulent claims would be pursuant in American and Australian courts. For the British fraudster, the BE letter doesn't stand as a legal document in the UK courts and by its own disclaimer printed on the letter itself, would have no value in a Thai court either. It's really not worth the paper it's printed on but it's 'priceless' to some applicants in the current Thai Immigration merry-go-round; the ones that chose not to tie up funds in a Thai bank account as well as those who can't afford to do that even if they wanted to.

[NanLaew]

19 hours ago, Thaidream said:

They have accepted them in the past for me when asked and for others who have posted on this forum- mostly in CM and mostly Americans.  There is no way to verify income with 100% accuracy but when you present a pension letter and back it up with a bank statement showing the exact amount of funds that are on the pension letter going into the bank in the same amount each month and then show the debits coming out in Thailand- it is pretty certain that it is accurate.

Thai Imm easily followed my explanation and understood completely what the letters and bank statement said.

I am not disagreeing with you since the IO's have always had the right to ask for more proof but simply comparing numbers between two documents is hardly a verification to the degree that the BE claims they are now being requested to do by Thai Immigration.

 

I still reckon that claiming 'Thai Immigration made us do it' is BE cop-out and sounds better than, 'We can't afford to do it any more.'

[Moonlover]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

I am not disagreeing with you since the IO's have always had the right to ask for more proof but simply comparing numbers between two documents is hardly a verification to the degree that the BE claims they are now being requested to do by Thai Immigration.

 

I still reckon that claiming 'Thai Immigration made us do it' is BE cop-out and sounds better than, 'We can't afford to do it any more.'

How can you possibly assert that the embassy can no longer afford to produce the letters when they charge a substantial 50 pounds per letter and it probably it takes no more than a hour or two to do so!

[Esso49]

3 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

How can you possibly assert that the embassy can no longer afford to produce the letters when they charge a substantial 50 pounds per letter and it probably it takes no more than a hour or two to do so!

An hour or 2 to do what is basically a standard letter.   Lets break it down in terms of cost.  The letter arrives at their post room.   So say 5 minutes to open it and put it in the correct tray for review by the Thai staff delegated to do the standard letter.  Another 5 mins for a Thai assistant to put it on the desk of the person responsible.  That Thai responsible then looks at the paperwork, primarily checking the credit or debit card details are in order before processing the card payment.  Let's say that takes 30 mins. Access the software on computer, type in the figures from the submitted documentation , print off to get approved/signed off by a consular official. Lets say 10 minutes in total and possibly a further 5 minutes for the consular official to read and sign.  Thai helper takes it to PO to send EMS.

 

So overall about 1 hour of a Thais work  Even assuming the Thai assistant earns 35,000 baht per month, which I doubt, then lets say with the overhead burden, tax, social etc that equates to a real charge out cost of say 100,000 per month.  Given their averaged working time is less than 150 hours per month  at the embassy this 1 hours work has a charge out cost of  670 baht.  !0 mins of the consular officials time who would be earning 40 to 60 k GBP per year plus an overseas uplift , together with O/H etc ( this computes to 89 GBP per hour ) would possibly have a further real cost  in the region of 622 Baht for 10 mins.  Total is thus 1292 Baht + 40 Baht for EMS = 1332 Baht.   The certification of income letter is charged to us at 50 GBP + 2 GBP for postage. So at 42 to the pound = 2184 Baht .  Effect net margin per letter is thus 852 Baht.    Assuming that they actually do only provide 3000 of these letters  ( I doubt that very much and suspect far higher, because there are over 620 people in Udon Thani province alone who gain their marriage extensions based on income according to my information.  That is extensions due to marriage not retirement, which the latter will increase the figure yet further ) then this equates to 2,556,000 Baht profit on this service per year.

 

Again once they release the actual figures requested via the FOI act we will have a true representation of the "profit" generated by the British Embassy in support of their citizens.

 

 

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

It clearly states Monthly and Yearly amount at the bottom.

 

They provide a 'calculating work area' because letters from your Pension providers can state the income as monthly, quarterly, or annual. Similarly supplying 3 months bank statements can show the monthly or quarterly payments to your account.

You make the calculation yourself.

From the letter application "Please ensure the pension/income evidence you provide is in a form that is simple and easy to understand and shows clearly the key financial amounts that are required for inclusion in the letter."

The key financial amount is the right hand column and titled "Yearly Amount"

Evidence of 3 months income multiplied by 4 is not the same as evidence of "Yearly Amount", end of story.

If the BE has been bending the rules then that may well be why what has happened has happened.

 

It no longer matters what the BE did or didn't do, it will be now in the hands of immigration. In the combination method they need an annual amount and a supporting balance, the question is, are they going to make it easy for everyone and take 3 months deposits, multiply by 4 and then add the supporting balance to get the amount that they want to see.

It is an almost foregone conclusion that any arrangement adopted will be in the interest of immigration and not the applicant and that is likely to mean that all 'evidence' is from a Thai source.

[HappyAndRich]

I can´t really see any problem here.  Over tousand comments in another thread about the same thing. Here 260 comments? Yeah, the question mark is big!

 

They way forward? I think that will be to provide evidence that can be proven for be able to legally stay in Thailand.

The only person that are going to suffer from this, is the ones that having been staying before by providing false information.

[steven2018]

My understanding is that 3000+ Brits could be affected by this, hopefully it gets worked out to a good resolution.

[Expattaff1308]

My Latest reply from our helpful Embassy..

Thank you for your email. We cannot issue a statutory declaration because the Thai authorities have confirmed that they require the income of those applying for a Thai retirement and marriage visas to be verified by their Embassy.  Providing a self-declaration does not meet this requirement.  If the Embassy administers these declarations, it can still be perceived that we are confirming income, which unfortunately we cannot do.  Whilst the British Embassy can administer statutory declarations, in this case it would be inappropriate for us to do so.  The affirmation of freedom to marry is different to a statutory declaration and we are obliged to administer it as there is no single document that shows marital status in the UK.  Regarding income for an extension of stay, there is an alternative already in place which is to move the required funds to a Thai bank account where the Thai authorities can verify it

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Expattaff1308