EU rejects Italian draft budget, setting up standoff with defiant Italy

[candide]

On 10/25/2018 at 8:05 PM, Bundooman said:

All this failure by Sovereign countries, Italy, Greece, France, Spain and Portugal - all being "told" by unelected, and corrupt EU officials, what they can do or not do, Kind of puts the British desire to rid themselves of this self serving, failing organisation into clear perspective. It was never going to work but they, the above, all want their piece of the pie, namely being bailed out when their corrupt, ineffective policies/mandates fail spectacularly - supported by their inability to take control of their unchecked spending and greed are revealed to the world. All 5 of those countries are utterly incompetent in fiscal matters.

Right or wrong, they are not "being told" by Brussels's bureaucracy, that's what they signed for! I personally think this rule is stupid because economic policies must be contracyclical.

It has been stupid to reduce deficit when there was a crisis and Italy is still suffering from it (though it also has its own responsibilities in it).

Stupid policy, but stupidly agreed, not forced on them by Brussel 's bureaucracy.

[candide]

12 hours ago, Cadbury said:

You mean like Thailand which has one of the largest shadow economies in the world. 41% on last report.

At least Thailand doesn't have the Asian equivalent of a strong arm bullyboy EU to have to contend with. 

Those poncing, grandstanding useless Brussels trough snorters love pushing EU member countries around. The UK can consider themselves lucky if they can escape their clutches. 

Good luck Italy, sock it to them!

The UK is not part of the Eurozone.....

[Cadbury]

4 hours ago, candide said:

The UK is not part of the Eurozone.....

I don't remember claiming it was but thank you anyway. The story is about the EU and Italy not the Eurozone. I was commenting on the story headed EU rejects Italian draft budget. 

Just for your clarification here are the definitions of both.

 

The European Union is a politico-economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe.

 

The Eurozone is a monetary union of 19 of the 28 European Union (EU) member states which have adopted the euro (€) as their common currency.

[candide]

5 hours ago, Cadbury said:

I don't remember claiming it was but thank you anyway. The story is about the EU and Italy not the Eurozone. I was commenting on the story headed EU rejects Italian draft budget. 

Just for your clarification here are the definitions of both.

 

The European Union is a politico-economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe.

 

The Eurozone is a monetary union of 19 of the 28 European Union (EU) member states which have adopted the euro (€) as their common currency.

Did I misunderstood the whole thing or is the budget issue related to the fact that Italy is part of the Eurozone?

[Cadbury]

3 hours ago, candide said:

Did I misunderstood the whole thing or is the budget issue related to the fact that Italy is part of the Eurozone?

The budget issue is related to the fact that Italy is a member of the EU. The fact that Italy is also a member of the Eurozone is irrelevant to the story.

[candide]

52 minutes ago, Cadbury said:

The budget issue is related to the fact that Italy is a member of the EU. The fact that Italy is also a member of the Eurozone is irrelevant to the story.

I am a bit mixed up between what concerns the whole EU and what concerns mainly the Eurozone, and can be opted out by others, such as UK did with the latest treaty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact

[Cadbury]

2 hours ago, candide said:

I am a bit mixed up between what concerns the whole EU and what concerns mainly the Eurozone, and can be opted out by others, such as UK did with the latest treaty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact

I leave it to you to confuse yourself as much as you like. Goodnight.

[bristolboy]

5 hours ago, Cadbury said:

The budget issue is related to the fact that Italy is a member of the EU. The fact that Italy is also a member of the Eurozone is irrelevant to the story.

4 hours ago, candide said:

I am a bit mixed up between what concerns the whole EU and what concerns mainly the Eurozone, and can be opted out by others, such as UK did with the latest treaty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact

2 hours ago, Cadbury said:

I leave it to you to confuse yourself as much as you like. Goodnight.

"The budget issue is related to the fact that Italy is a member of the EU. The fact that Italy is also a member of the Eurozone is irrelevant to the story."

Cadbury, your satement is absolutely 100% false. This is strictly a Eurozone issue. The EU has no authority over over the budgets of non-Eurozone nations. So Candide may be confuses but you are dead wrong. A little confusion might benefit you.

 

"For their mutual assurance and stability of the currency, members of the eurozone have to respect the Stability and Growth Pact, which sets agreed limits on deficits and national debt, with associated sanctions for deviation. The Pact originally set a limit of 3% of GDP for the yearly deficit of all eurozone member states; with fines for any state which exceeded this amount. In 2005, Portugal, Germany, and France had all exceeded this amount, but the Council of Ministers had not voted to fine those states. Subsequently, reforms were adopted to provide more flexibility and ensure that the deficit criteria took into account the economic conditions of the member states, and additional factors."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone

 

 

[candide]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

"The budget issue is related to the fact that Italy is a member of the EU. The fact that Italy is also a member of the Eurozone is irrelevant to the story."

Cadbury, your satement is absolutely 100% false. This is strictly a Eurozone issue. The EU has no authority over over the budgets of non-Eurozone nations. So Candide may be confuses but you are dead wrong. A little confusion might benefit you.

 

"For their mutual assurance and stability of the currency, members of the eurozone have to respect the Stability and Growth Pact, which sets agreed limits on deficits and national debt, with associated sanctions for deviation. The Pact originally set a limit of 3% of GDP for the yearly deficit of all eurozone member states; with fines for any state which exceeded this amount. In 2005, Portugal, Germany, and France had all exceeded this amount, but the Council of Ministers had not voted to fine those states. Subsequently, reforms were adopted to provide more flexibility and ensure that the deficit criteria took into account the economic conditions of the member states, and additional factors."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone

 

 

Actually I did a bit of research and it's quite tricky. Actually all EU 28 signed the pact and are supposed to respect it. However, Eurozone countries must submit a stability plan while the others must submit a convergence plan. My understanding is that for non-Eurozone countries the EU will only make recommendations, while for Eurozone countries it can in some way retaliate (at least in theory). There are also further treaties as the one I cited which are compulsory for the Eurozone and not for others.

 

So it is a EU matter as the pact is for all, but the precise obligations and the enforcement are dependent on belonging or not to the Eurozone, for obvious reasons. So it is also a Eurozone matter.

 

Clearly, it would not be the same fuss if Italy were not in the Eurozone.

[Cadbury]

8 hours ago, candide said:

Actually I did a bit of research and it's quite tricky. Actually all EU 28 signed the pact and are supposed to respect it. However, Eurozone countries must submit a stability plan while the others must submit a convergence plan. My understanding is that for non-Eurozone countries the EU will only make recommendations, while for Eurozone countries it can in some way retaliate (at least in theory). There are also further treaties as the one I cited which are compulsory for the Eurozone and not for others.

 

So it is a EU matter as the pact is for all, but the precise obligations and the enforcement are dependent on belonging or not to the Eurozone, for obvious reasons. So it is also a Eurozone matter.

 

Clearly, it would not be the same fuss if Italy were not in the Eurozone.

I take your point about added complications because of Italy being in the Eurozone. But the fuss seems to be stemming from not only the EU being unhappy with the budget but Italy being also unhappy due to being hectored by the EU because this was the first budget that Brussels had allowed them to do, to quote, "This is the first Italian budget that the EU doesn't like. I am not surprised. This is the first Italian budget that was written in Rome and not in Brussels" the Deputy PM of Italy said. Seems a pity they hadn't worked together on it.

The closest reference they make to the Eurozone is when one of the Commissioners says, to quote "Today, for the first time, the Commission is obliged to request a euro area country to revise its draft budget plan". 

Thank you for sharing your research. I am now better informed of the intriguing machinations of the EU and the Brussels bully boys and the powerful influence they have over Europe. This link demonstrates that I am not the only one who thinks like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk70CLQumyA

I only hope that something like the EU never comes to Asia.

 

[bristolboy]

9 hours ago, candide said:

Actually I did a bit of research and it's quite tricky. Actually all EU 28 signed the pact and are supposed to respect it. However, Eurozone countries must submit a stability plan while the others must submit a convergence plan. My understanding is that for non-Eurozone countries the EU will only make recommendations, while for Eurozone countries it can in some way retaliate (at least in theory). There are also further treaties as the one I cited which are compulsory for the Eurozone and not for others.

 

So it is a EU matter as the pact is for all, but the precise obligations and the enforcement are dependent on belonging or not to the Eurozone, for obvious reasons. So it is also a Eurozone matter.

 

Clearly, it would not be the same fuss if Italy were not in the Eurozone.

Theoreticallyl most of the EU nations not on the Euro are obliged to adopt it. But no dates are specified and in fact there is no enforcement mechanism. The same goes for this situation in respect to countries that control the supply of their own currency. And the EU really has no means to enforce it because as long as a nation issues its own currency, what could the EU do?

[bristolboy]

Good article here from Marshall Auerback about the Euro and Italy.

If the Euro cracks — blame Germany, not the Italians

The drive for German industrial hegemony is in its overreach stage and risks blowing up the currency union

https://www.salon.com/2018/10/28/if-the-euro-cracks-blame-germany-not-the-italians_partner/

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Good article here from Marshall Auerback about the Euro and Italy.

If the Euro cracks — blame Germany, not the Italians

The drive for German industrial hegemony is in its overreach stage and risks blowing up the currency union

https://www.salon.com/2018/10/28/if-the-euro-cracks-blame-germany-not-the-italians_partner/

Yes. I'm surprised you posted it. The final paragraph summary is spot on.

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes. I'm surprised you posted it. The final paragraph summary is spot on.

When my collected contributions to thaivisa.com are published in book form you will find that I have always held that the Euro is a terrible idea. Interestingly enough, when it was proposed, European economists including those in the UK were mostly in favor of the idea. Whereas American economists mostly thought it was a bad idea for reasons that have since been amply borne out in reality. This is just one of the reasons that it has always struck me as odd that certain posters alleged to be non-UK citizens are held to have opinions less worthy of consideration. Sometimes distance is a good thing.

Another great source of puzzlement to me is why Brexiters invoke the Euro as a reason to leave the EU.  As the last crisis showed, the UK is in no way financially responsible for failures of the Euro system. 

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

When my collected contributions to thaivisa.com are published in book form you will find that I have always held that the Euro is a terrible idea. Interestingly enough, when it was proposed, European economists including those in the UK were mostly in favor of the idea. Whereas American economists mostly thought it was a bad idea for reasons that have since been amply borne out in reality. This is just one of the reasons that it has always struck me as odd that certain posters alleged to be non-UK citizens are held to have opinions less worthy of consideration. Sometimes distance is a good thing.

Another great source of puzzlement to me is why Brexiters invoke the Euro as a reason to leave the EU.  As the last crisis swthe UKya is in no way financially responsible for failures of the Euro system. 

There is no great puzzle. The Euro is owned by the EU, which wants all of its members to adopt it. The evolution of the EU shows in what direction it is heading, which is obviously ever-more central control and expansion. If the EU continues as is, then eventually all opt outs, rebates and vetoes are likely to be taken away, including our right to keep our own currency. 

 

Good luck with the book.

[bristolboy]

14 minutes ago, nauseus said:

There is no great puzzle. The Euro is owned by the EU, which wants all of its members to adopt it. The evolution of the EU shows in what direction it is heading, which is obviously ever-more central control and expansion. If the EU continues as is, then eventually all opt outs, rebates and vetoes are likely to be taken away, including our right to keep our own currency. 

 

Good luck with the book.

Given that there is no plausible mechanism to effect the changes you predict, I doubt it.

And yes, no need to ask, you will be receiving an autographed copy.