Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

OK. Sounds logical. The chances of that rule happening I see as almost zero. People often try to read the minds of the motivations and thought processes of Thai immigration. I find that folly. 

Agreed it almost certainly won't happen. 

As to minds and motivations, I believe the purpose is to increase agent-laundered under-the-table revenue for a few - not to "solve" some expat health payments "problem" (tiny compared to our overall benefit) or to craft a solution which will maximize foreign-capital spending for the benefit of the Thai people.

[Moonlover]

25 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Wow. 174 pages already.
I am going to talk about some concerns, and I am not sure that anyone else has mentioned them yet. I had a stroke a few months ago, and though doing quite well in most respects still find reading a bit difficult.
I do honestly meet the current requirements for the income method, having something in the neighborhood of 100,000 baht AVERAGE monthly income. That is the key. My social security is a bit over 47,000 of that, and is regular as clockwork. The balance of my income is from a custodial account and is distributed quarterly. A portion is from dividend income, etc., but partially from principle, and is under the threshold amount such that I do not need to file a tax return every year.
My concern is if TI will accept my Thai bank records, and perhaps Bkk bank will write a letter, indicating an AVERAGE of more than 65,000 baht per month, or well more than the 800,000 baht yearly amount that is the ultimate goal.
I have had a difficult time getting my fiancee to understand the concept of "income average". so "no, darling, we do not have 100,000 baht to spend this month".
Am I likely to have any better luck with an Immigration Officer?
Do any of the visa agents work on the monthly income basis, or would I need to find one that, however they do it, manage to "prove" their clients have 800,000 seasoned baht?
I have until 12 Sept. 2019 according to my most recent visa from Savan., where incidentally they asked to see my bank book for the first time.  I did not have it, but they accepted a copy of the previous year's visa as "proof" that I had met the requirement then, and I guess presumably was still retired with an income. ????

Well. I do have one suggestion. You mentioned that your partner is actually your fiancée. Do you see where I'm going here?

 

If you marry, Your regular social security payments of 47,000 per month will comfortably exceed the monthly income requirement for a marriage based extension.

 

Other than that, showing your bank statements for the whole year and appending a spreadsheet showing that your average income does indeed exceed the retirement threshold could well work. You have plenty of time so try an informal chat with IO prior to your renewal date. I suspect there could be a lot of use doing that, me included.

 

And please take no notice of the doom and gloom brigade. I'm quite sure that monthly income extensions will still be accepted.

 

Good luck.

[Jingthing]

I would like to see Thailand require health insurance for expats at the same time offering a BASIC government plan at a reasonably inflated cost for those that can't get decent cover privately due to preexisting conditions. That's another logical thing they could do which they will not do. 

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Since they don't let sick people fly how would that work? 

Those without money or other insurance are given care in a govt-hospital up to the point you can fly - that's it.  No private room or private hospital. 

In a case where the person could be stuck for an extended-period, then medical-evac - which is expensive, but would be exceedingly rare, and only used when the per-day cost would exceed the evac-cost.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

If they want fixed deposit, they have to abandon annual extension renewal and 90-day reporting.

I agree a new police-order would be needed for this, but that new order could preserve the 90-day reporting, if they wanted to. 

 

But a complete re-organization of the TM-6, TM-28, TM-30, 90-day system is very much needed to improve efficiency - unless the goal is to keep it messy and redundant, to maximize fine-revenue.

 

59 minutes ago, PhonThong said:

Existing police order says nothing about the monthly income having to be deposited in a Thai Bank. Only says must show proof of income. Doesn't even say it must come from out of the country. If I am missing something, I wish someone would produce the order number.

It also doesn't require an embassy-letter, but that is policy, and embassy-letter use is referenced in subsequent orders.  The question is what the "policy en-force" will be (still no announcement), and how consistent it will be at various offices.
 

[Joe Mcseismic]

1 hour ago, PhonThong said:

Existing police order says nothing about the monthly income having to be deposited in a Thai Bank. Only says must show proof of income. Doesn't even say it must come from out of the country. If I am missing something, I wish someone would produce the order number.

You keep mentioning this "police order" ad nauseum. It's clear that the IO are already not obeying it to the letter.

What makes you think that they will obey it in the future?

It seems to me that it has the same relevancy to real life, as the law that says prostitution is illegal.....

[Bill Miller]

6 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Well. I do have one suggestion. You mentioned that your partner is actually your fiancée. Do you see where I'm going here?

 

If you marry, Your regular social security payments of 47,000 per month will comfortably exceed the monthly income requirement for a marriage based extension.

 

Other than that, showing your bank statements for the whole year and appending a spreadsheet showing that your average income does indeed exceed the retirement threshold could well work. You have plenty of time so try an informal chat with IO prior to your renewal date. I suspect there could be a lot of use doing that, me included.

 

And please take no notice of the doom and gloom brigade. I'm quite sure that monthly income extensions will still be accepted.

 

Good luck.

Thanks.
Th idea of "...an informal chat with IO..." is amusing, but I will try when I go to Jomtien to try for a residency letter.
If I get any info on that I will post a follow up.
We just had a talk about maybe getting married here. Fon had wanted to marry in the US, but getting her a visa has been a problem.
She somehow got the idea that Thai marriage would not be recognized in the US. Horror stories about not being permitted to inherit, etc.
Thanks for the note about the "doom and gloom brigade", 5555

 

[moontang]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I would like to see Thailand require health insurance for expats at the same time offering a BASIC government plan at a reasonably inflated cost for those that can't get decent cover privately due to preexisting conditions. That's another logical thing they could do which they will not do. 

Why would Thailand want to become a magnet for foreigners with medical conditions?  

[mogandave]

Currently bank options are 400k marriage and 800k retirement. No 600k. I find your idea daft. What difference does it make if you spend down to 10 baht as long as you top up before the THREE MONTH seasoning period begins? 

I would eliminate the 3 month after the first use.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, moontang said:

Why would Thailand want to become a magnet for foreigners with medical conditions?  

A very significant percentage of older people have some preexisting medical conditions. So if you're asking why would they want older foreigners, well, they have the power to kick us all out if they choose. As I've often said, the vast majority of nations in the world don't have any program for retired foreigners. 

 

We are not "entitled" to anything here as foreigners. I would have preferred if they had a path to permanent residence for retired foreigners here but of course they don't and they won't and everyone considering retiring here should be aware of that going in. 

 

If I do ever choose to move to another expat destination country, such a residence security path (and also a government offered health program) will be features that I would value highly. (Yes, some do.)

[marcusarelus]

23 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Those without money or other insurance are given care in a govt-hospital up to the point you can fly - that's it.  No private room or private hospital. 

In a case where the person could be stuck for an extended-period, then medical-evac - which is expensive, but would be exceedingly rare, and only used when the per-day cost would exceed the evac-cost.

I believe that would make them worse as opposed to getting them well enough to fly.  Far from rare since the leading causes of death are heart and cancer I don't see any gov hosp treatment doing much good.  Maybe they could start Farang hospice.

[mogandave]

Since they don't let sick people fly how would that work? 

They let sick and injured people fly and are well equipped for it. I was on a flight where the pulled a couple rows of seats on one side and a gurney was fixed to the seat-tracks on the floor. It also a curtain around it.

I broke my f’n little toe on that gd thing going to the head...

[Thaidream]

Speculation about  health insurance and  blocked fixed deposits really does not add to the immediate narrative of how to proceed.  I would like to see the following:

 

1.  The  Embassy Letter situation at least extended until the end of 2019-  with the letter being issued until 30 June 2019 and  valid 6 months forward to the end of December 31, 2019. this gives everyone time to either prepare for a change; sell assets if necessary;  save funds if needed; get legally married or prepare for a move. It would also give Thai Imm a chance to brief ALL its Immigration offices of the change- the exact date Jan 1, 2020; issue directives; have meetings etc so ALL offices are on the same page.

 

2.  If one starts with the premise that most people either have a monthly income of 65K or 40K or use a combination method-which is what was stated on the Embassy letter- the easiest approach would be showing a Thai bankbook  with a deposit of 65K or 40K  for 2- 3 consecutive months for the first  extension and thereafter for the next showing 6 deposits. (If using the combo- show the monthly deposit as the amount needed to make up the difference)  Only the bank book- no bank letters.  Where the money comes from is inconsequential- transfer, checks, cash. The current Police Order  just says 'evidence'. The money only needs to be seasoned the first time for  2 months and after that no seasoning- the bank book just needs to show the date of deposit being a month separate each time.

 

OR

 

A Foreign Bank Account showing a monthly flow into the account of 65K/40 K per month from any source- initially 2-3 months and 6 months after that. One sheet of Paper- in English from one's bank- plus   showing the IO how one has access in Thailand to the money- Debit Card/Credit Card/ Traveler Check Receipt-   Show the original and a copy for the record. This would add a few more minutes for the IO  but since not everyone will have this method-  it should incur no problem.

 

To me- the above satisfies every issue people have reported on this forum- married; single; all types of income-foreign and local; combination method=no need for any Embassy letter once fully implemented.

[mogandave]

I would like to see Thailand require health insurance for expats at the same time offering a BASIC government plan at a reasonably inflated cost for those that can't get decent cover privately due to preexisting conditions. That's another logical thing they could do which they will not do. 

Similar the the social package you can get after working here. I think it’s 650 a month...

[onera1961]

14 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

If you marry, Your regular social security payments of 47,000 per month will comfortably exceed the monthly income requirement for a marriage based extension.

If one marries, does she get a social security number? Or she has to emigrate to the USA? May be they can go to the USA, marry in Las vegas, apply for a social security card. With a social security card, spouse will be paid 50% of his SS (when she turns 62 of course), without any contribution made to the system. 

[Bill Miller]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I would like to see Thailand require health insurance for expats at the same time offering a BASIC government plan at a reasonably inflated cost for those that can't get decent cover privately due to preexisting conditions. That's another logical thing they could do which they will not do. 

Yes!
A few years back they had a program that applied to foreigners. I think it was meant for foreign "guest workers", i.e. from Laos, Cambodia, etc., but was a little vaguely worded and a number of Westerners got on it before someone noticed and pulled the plug on farang participation. That said, an expat I was chatting with swears a neighbor just got signed up. Still waiting to find out where!
I think the program would work fine if a reasonable premium were charged, and by that I mean enough to finance the needs of the system. Thai folks have the 30 baht scheme, how about 3,000 baht/month for farangs? I would gladly pay that, plus a  co-pay for "extra" services.
I think a program along those lines, with mandatory participation for those who do not carry private insurance, would well serve both the farang expat/visitor community, and would help finance the short falls of the existing system.
How to present such an idea to the movers and shakers?   

[mogandave]

Thanks.
Th idea of "...an informal chat with IO..." is amusing, but I will try when I go to Jomtien to try for a residency letter.
If I get any info on that I will post a follow up.
We just had a talk about maybe getting married here. Fon had wanted to marry in the US, but getting her a visa has been a problem.
She somehow got the idea that Thai marriage would not be recognized in the US. Horror stories about not being permitted to inherit, etc.
Thanks for the note about the "doom and gloom brigade", 5555
 

The US will recognize the Thai marriage and you can get her a tax payer ID and file joint, which is nice if you can use the deduction...

After you marry getting her a 10 year “tourist” visa is easy.

You can get married in the US on a vacation...

[mogandave]

If one marries, does she get a social security number? Or she has to emigrate to the USA? May be they can go to the USA, marry in Las vegas, apply for a social security card. With a social security card, spouse will be paid 50% of his SS (when she turns 62 of course), without any contribution made to the system. 

She can get a tax payer ID number

As I understand it, you would (at some point) have to live together in the US continuously for five years for her to qualify for your social security.

[onera1961]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

A Foreign Bank Account showing a monthly flow into the account of 65K/40 K per month from any source- initially 2-3 months and 6 months after that. One sheet of Paper- in English from one's bank- plus   showing the IO how one has access in Thailand to the money- Debit Card/Credit Card/ Traveler Check Receipt-   Show the original and a copy for the record. This would add a few more minutes for the IO  but since not everyone will have this method-  it should incur no problem.

 

I don't like this foreign bank business. Now you expect TI's to keep language expert who can read/understand French and Dutch, and Icelandic, and Andorran languages? This is not going to fly. One sheet of English paper is easy to fake. Money in the Thai bank is easy, no language expert is required, and if faked easy to catch and prosecute because the bank is inside Thailand. Today, they can use their foreign bank account to get an O-A visa. No problem because each embassy has language expert inside their respective country. 

[Bill Miller]

5 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

If one marries, does she get a social security number? Or she has to emigrate to the USA? May be they can go to the USA, marry in Las vegas, apply for a social security card. With a social security card, spouse will be paid 50% of his SS (when she turns 62 of course), without any contribution made to the system. 

There is a residency requirement, I believe, of five years for a Thai spouse. Some nations have a Social Security agreement with he US that make things easier.
I think I read that some negotiations just completed allowing direct deposit of SS benefits to Thai banks. It may be that some agreement will be forth coming on other Social Security issues.
Stay tuned! 

[onera1961]

22 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Similar the the social package you can get after working here. I think it’s 650 a month...

Does it cover any private hospital? That's a good deal

[JackThompson]

29 minutes ago, moontang said:

Why would Thailand want to become a magnet for foreigners with medical conditions?  

Exactly.  This is one reason why I only propose a minimal-program that gets the sick-person out of the country ASAP - so that someone with a long-term health issue would have no motivation to come here for treatment, unless they could afford that treatment

 

22 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I believe that would make them worse as opposed to getting them well enough to fly.  Far from rare since the leading causes of death are heart and cancer I don't see any gov hosp treatment doing much good.  Maybe they could start Farang hospice.

Cancer doesn't kill you right away, isn't contagious, and wouldn't prevent flying (in most cases).  Heart issues are often stabilized with blood-thinners before any more evasive treatment is undertaken (ballon, stints, etc).  In any case, "stabilize and repatriate" insurance won't be footing the bill for long-term treatments or expensive surgeries in the vast majority of these cases.

 

Accidents with head and spine injuries are the ones where being moved will be more often problematic - and these will often involve tourists, not long-term expats, as the victims - which is why I think all persons should get "stabilize and repatriate" insurance as part of any permit-of-stay. 

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, onera1961 said:

I don't like this foreign bank business. Now you expect TI's to keep language expert who can read/understand French and Dutch, and Icelandic, and Andorran languages? This is not going to fly. One sheet of English paper is easy to fake. Money in the Thai bank is easy, no language expert is required, and if faked easy to catch and prosecute because the bank is inside Thailand. Today, they can use their foreign bank account to get an O-A visa. No problem because each embassy has language expert inside their respective country.

I have no problem with the Thai Bankbook-   but  a person can translate  a bank statement from any language into Thai using a certified translator or English.  How do they get by now when one needs a translation for a Thai Government document? What does Thai Imm do know when a Chinese speaker; a Japanese speaker and many others applies for an extension- I guarantee  their documents have to be translated in Thai or English.

 

Using a foreign bank statement allows some people the option of keeping their funds in their home country but still spending what they need in Thailand. As far as the document being faked- possibly- but the credit card/debit card they show with the statement is not going to be faked. 

 

We are basically talking about a demographic of retired people 50 years up- they live in Thailand- have to pay rent; have to eat; transportation; go to the doctor- they get their money somewhere- the fraud issue is  a straw man- that has no real basis in numbers. How many English teachers you see over the age of 70?  Not many other occupations people in the retired age group could be working illegally.

[jmd8800]

I'd say it is best to stop thinking of what the Thai government can do for 'us'.

 

My guess is the Thai government is interested in streamlining their immigration / visa rules for various reason that we are not privy to.

[mogandave]

Does it cover any private hospital? That's a good deal

No. It is government hospitals only, but it’s (I think) 100%, unlimited and good for life.

I’ve never used it as I still have BCBS until February so I use Bumrungrad.

[lkv]

12 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Using a foreign bank statement allows some people the option of keeping their funds in their home country but still spending what they need in Thailand.

And using a Thai bank statement ensures an inflow of a minimum 800K into the Thai economy, encouraging more local spending also, even if some don't spend it all, they are more prone to spend it.

 

If I was the Thai government, I know which one I'd want.

 

[Sheryl]

They let sick and injured people fly and are well equipped for it. I was on a flight where the pulled a couple rows of seats on one side and a gurney was fixed to the seat-tracks on the floor. It also a curtain around it.

I broke my f’n little toe on that gd thing going to the head...

Very, very expensive though. And requires medical certification of fitness to fly, they will not risk an inflight emergency if they can help it.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mogandave]

I have no problem with the Thai Bankbook-   but  a person can translate  a bank statement from any language into Thai using a certified translator or English.  How do they get by now when one needs a translation for a Thai Government document? What does Thai Imm do know when a Chinese speaker; a Japanese speaker and many others applies for an extension- I guarantee  their documents have to be translated in Thai or English.
 
Using a foreign bank statement allows some people the option of keeping their funds in their home country but still spending what they need in Thailand. As far as the document being faked- possibly- but the credit card/debit card they show with the statement is not going to be faked. 
 
We are basically talking about a demographic of retired people 50 years up- they live in Thailand- have to pay rent; have to eat; transportation; go to the doctor- they get their money somewhere- the fraud issue is  a straw man- that has no real basis in numbers. How many English teachers you see over the age of 70?  Not many other occupations people in the retired age group could be working illegally.

Translating a bank statement does not verify it.

How do you have any idea what the fraud numbers are?

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

What is, "IB?"

IB = Immigration Bureau - which I personally prefer to "TI", whatever that stands for!????

[Joe Mcseismic]

48 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Yes!
A few years back they had a program that applied to foreigners. I think it was meant for foreign "guest workers", i.e. from Laos, Cambodia, etc., but was a little vaguely worded and a number of Westerners got on it before someone noticed and pulled the plug on farang participation. That said, an expat I was chatting with swears a neighbor just got signed up. Still waiting to find out where!
I think the program would work fine if a reasonable premium were charged, and by that I mean enough to finance the needs of the system. Thai folks have the 30 baht scheme, how about 3,000 baht/month for farangs? I would gladly pay that, plus a  co-pay for "extra" services.
I think a program along those lines, with mandatory participation for those who do not carry private insurance, would well serve both the farang expat/visitor community, and would help finance the short falls of the existing system.
How to present such an idea to the movers and shakers?   

So......that would put the Elite Card out of business, eh?