Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[elviajero]

23 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

You are talking a load of rubbish. The system is not geared up for income from abroad or income from employment in Thailand. The system is geared up for individual income earned, and that is all.

Would you look at the rubbish the TIB write on their own websites!

 

http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php?page=faq

From a IMMIGRATION WEBSITE; 

22. Question : What is the required age of the alien wisthing to stay in Thailand with the reason of Retirement?

Answer : For reasons to stay of Retirement, the alien must be 50 year of age or older and must have been granted a Non-Immigrant visa, firstly. More over, the said alien must have evidences to verify his/her financial status of not less than 65,000 Baht per month or 800,000 Baht per year. Evidences showing financial support are as follows;              2.2  In case of having any other income from abroad such as pension, social welfare      -  Letter from the applicant’s Embassy or consulate in Thailand verifying their pension or other income of the applicant which must not be less than 65,000 Baht per month. Or;

 

16.Question : Is it possible for the alien to stay in Thailand with his Thai wife? What are the requirements?

Answer : Alien having Thai wife could stay in Thailand under the reason of staying with his Thai wife. The requirements and documentations are as follows;  Documents supporting financial status of foreign husband as mentioned  above are as follows:         For foreign husband working in Thailand Work Permit Letter from his employer verified employment and salary in details.(monthly salary must not be less than 40,000 Baht) Evidences of  payment of annual income tax with receipt (Por Ngor Dor 1 of latest three months and Por Ngor Dor 91 of the previous year)

[Russell17au]

27 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Would you look at the rubbish the TIB write on their own websites!

 

http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php?page=faq

From a IMMIGRATION WEBSITE; 

22. Question : What is the required age of the alien wisthing to stay in Thailand with the reason of Retirement?

Answer : For reasons to stay of Retirement, the alien must be 50 year of age or older and must have been granted a Non-Immigrant visa, firstly. More over, the said alien must have evidences to verify his/her financial status of not less than 65,000 Baht per month or 800,000 Baht per year. Evidences showing financial support are as follows;              2.2  In case of having any other income from abroad such as pension, social welfare      -  Letter from the applicant’s Embassy or consulate in Thailand verifying their pension or other income of the applicant which must not be less than 65,000 Baht per month. Or;

 

16.Question : Is it possible for the alien to stay in Thailand with his Thai wife? What are the requirements?

Answer : Alien having Thai wife could stay in Thailand under the reason of staying with his Thai wife. The requirements and documentations are as follows;  Documents supporting financial status of foreign husband as mentioned  above are as follows:         For foreign husband working in Thailand Work Permit Letter from his employer verified employment and salary in details.(monthly salary must not be less than 40,000 Baht) Evidences of  payment of annual income tax with receipt (Por Ngor Dor 1 of latest three months and Por Ngor Dor 91 of the previous year)

you conveniently left out some of the Q&A on Question 16. which would explain many things to you but you are being picky on what you display as to what is actually on the website so I am not interested in your little game that you want to play. Goodbye

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

ecause as it stands the system is geared up for income from abroad, or income from employment in Thailand. 

 

I don't see any logical reason why it shouldn't be accepted, but I don't agree with your assertion that it would be. I haven't seen one single report of anyone getting an extension using unearned income in Thailand.

 

If you're right I could have had many extensions by just showing my Thai tax returns!

This is your opinion. My opinion, the police order and the  Thai imm Website-  says that income from abroad is not a requirement. It maybe in the future. None of us know.

 

Just because you have never seen an extension as both I and UJ   described does not mean it doesn't exist.

You are the one with 'opinion'! The immigration site does not say "income from abroad is not a requirement". The only immigration website I can find that mentions it either way is http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php?page=faq

 2.2  In case of having any other income from abroad such as pension, social welfare

 

Show me a TIB website that says otherwise.

 

There is no extension as you and UJ describe. Extensions of stay based on retirement/spouse/parent require cash in the bank or an income. Income from employment in Thailand is accepted or income from abroad confirmed by your embassy. That's currently it!

 

For foreign husband working in Thailand

• Work Permit
• Letter from his employer verified employment and salary in details.(monthly salary must not be less than 40,000 Baht)
• Evidences of  payment of annual income tax with receipt (Por Ngor Dor 1 of latest three months and Por Ngor Dor 91 of the previous year)

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed.   Continue with such remarks at your own peril.

 

[JLCrab]

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

I don't mean to pick nits but in my opinion "transferred into an account in Thailand" does not necessarily mean "transferred from outside Thailand to an account in Thailand".

In the context of the UK Embassy, you're picking nits.

[Thaidream]

7 hours ago, elviajero said:

The only time they have been know to accept ATM receipts is when they want evidence that the applicant is bringing money into the country as extra proof of income claimed in a embassy letter.

the only way you or any of us can prove our points of view is via individual cases that we have been made aware of.  IMO the Police Order and the Thai Website is somewhat vague as to what evidence will be accepted in what circumstance. My experience tells me that an IO will allow more leeway for an applicant who has a long history of extensions as opposed to someone who has no history.

 

There was a time when there were no  Embassy Letters and IO's accepted many kinds of evidence. Since they were able to accept  evidences without letters in the past, my instincts tell me they will accept them again.

 

They could take a very narrow view and demand only one way as you seem to advocate- a foreign transfer- but I would be surprised as that would not be inclusive but very exclusive of the vast population of expatriates .

 

I would rather see everyone included in the way forward.

 

 

[mogandave]

the only way you or any of us can prove our points of view is via individual cases that we have been made aware of.  IMO the Police Order and the Thai Website is somewhat vague as to what evidence will be accepted in what circumstance. My experience tells me that an IO will allow more leeway for an applicant who has a long history of extensions as opposed to someone who has no history.
 
There was a time when there were no  Embassy Letters and IO's accepted many kinds of evidence. Since they were able to accept  evidences without letters in the past, my instincts tell me they will accept them again.
 
They could take a very narrow view and demand only one way as you seem to advocate- a foreign transfer- but I would be surprised as that would not be inclusive but very exclusive of the vast population of expatriates .
 
I would rather see everyone included in the way forward.
 
 

I believe that far and away most people here on retirement visas get their money from their home country(s).

They have to bring money (in some form) here anyway.

Some people have very straightforward ways of proving their income, some have very complex income steams and some have very little income but have a nice chunk they are spending down on.

For a lot people, particularly people getting direct deposit to their Thai account, showing the passbook and bank letter would be cheaper and easier than the income letter method they use now.

I know you love your ATM card and traveler’s checks and whatnot, and I truly hope you can continue doing what you are doing, but if you can’t, when push comes to shove, it’s pretty easy to transfer money from the US and it does not really cost that much in the scheme of things.

You can continue using your US ATM for point of sale and you can get a new ATM to get pocket money.

[mogandave]

They could take a very narrow view and demand only one way as you seem to advocate- a foreign transfer- but I would be surprised as that would not be inclusive but very exclusive of the vast population of expatriates .
 
I would rather see everyone included in the way forward.
 
 

I am not aware of anyone advocating a single solution, except perhaps the people that want the consulate to continue issuing letters.

Clearly it is not realistic to expect “...everyone included in the way forward...” as some people have been lying and do not have the income they have been claiming.

[KiChakayan]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

They could take a very narrow view and demand only one way as you seem to advocate- a foreign transfer- but I would be surprised as that would not be inclusive but very exclusive of the vast population of expatriates .

You are assuming that the authorities would take an "inclusive" stance. I am not convinced that will be the case. I would also tend to believe that this income letter issue isn't the result of an "exclusion" plot, Thailand is too reactive a place. However this doesn't mean that at the and of the day someone isn't going to see it as an opportunity to favour "quality" retirees and eliminate some of the riffraff. 

[Thaidream]

40 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Clearly it is not realistic to expect “...everyone included in the way forward...” as some people have been lying and do not have the income they have been claiming.

The way forward should include everyone that has the income and did not lie on their  letter- but there are many ways to prove income ans if choosing only one way- that may eliminate people who actually have the income.

[mogandave]

The way forward should include everyone that has the income and did not lie on their  letter- but there are many ways to prove income ans if choosing only one way- that may eliminate people who actually have the income.

 

Who is advocating there be only one way?

 

Personally, I think drug dealers could easily transfer money into a local account, but I think they should be disallowed. You do not seem to want them to be excluded. We disagree.

[Thaidream]

9 minutes ago, mogandave said:

ersonally, I think drug dealers could easily transfer money into a local account, but I think they should be disallowed. You do not seem to want them to be excluded. We disagree.

I never said you were advocating one way- and as far as those who are drug dealers and criminals- I would not advocate for them.  There are many people who have invested monies in Thailand who are legitimate - own condos; other small business- I merely express the hope they will be accommodated.

 

My main anger is with the  Embassies who pulled the plug without any input from the citizens and in essence created much confusion- they could have worked with Thai Imm to plan a longer transition so people who may be short of the needed amounts can sell assets; get loans and then move on with their lives.

[JackThompson]

 

11 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

What is the Agent system?

I thought the agents were to help with the paperwork and help reduce the wait times at Immigration by holding a place in line for you. 

It is a decades-old system of allowing agents to submit applications for applicants.  The process varies to some extent by office. 

 

A handful of very wealthy people use agents, because ~$500 is worth less to them than a day or less of their time. 

 

Another group are forced to use agents, because IOs refuse to process legit applications (often adding more "needed documents" with each attempt, until they give up). 

 

The rest are people who do not meet the financial-qualifications, so pay agents to "sponsor" their applications by providing the funds.  In order to protect this system from competition, short-term loans were blocked for in-person applicants, by adding "seasoning-requirements."  But this "money seasoning" is waived by immigration for agent-applications (you guess why). 

 

Agents also handle work-visas - including the "L" visa applicants from neighboring countries - at a cost of ~10% of the gross annual wages of these low-wage workers, according to one I spoke with.

 

31 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Personally, I think drug dealers could easily transfer money into a local account, but I think they should be disallowed. You do not seem to want them to be excluded. We disagree.

Almost certainly, the drug-dealers just pay the agents.  Immigration allows - sometimes forces - thousands of fraudulent applications every year, in exchange for agent-money.  This dwarfs the handful of idiots who may not have under 65K income, and thought committing a felony-crime to get a US-Embassy letter was a wise-move.

[mogandave]

I never said you were advocating one way- and as far as those who are drug dealers and criminals- I would not advocate for them.  There are many people who have invested monies in Thailand who are legitimate - own condos; other small business- I merely express the hope they will be accommodated.
 
My main anger is with the  Embassies who pulled the plug without any input from the citizens and in essence created much confusion- they could have worked with Thai Imm to plan a longer transition so people who may be short of the needed amounts can sell assets; get loans and then move on with their lives.

I never said you said I was. I asked you who was, as I don’t see it here.

As far as the embassy, they may have any number of things in the works and I doubt very much input from the public would be of much help. That said, I imagine they are receiving plenty of input from the public.

I think the embassy and TI are not real concerned, as they do not envision this as being a big deal for people that actually have the resources they claim to have.


No one has been kicked out yet, and anyone can get a letter that will carry them at least until the end of next year. It could well be that TI will accept expired letters for a while as well.

If TI wanted to get rid of expats, they could have just changed the rules and made it more difficult to stay. They could have just announced that the letter would no longer be accepted and mandate whatever requirements they saw fit.

I’m guessing they want to get rid of a few deadbeats and or criminals and or people working illegally and or tax evaders.

Maybe both the embassies and TI are full of spiteful morons trying to create problems for everyone, but I doubt very much that is the case.

[onera1961]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

but there are many ways to prove income

What are these many ways? Can you list them? Remember, they had only one way - embassy letter. You have to list a similar and simpler way only to replace embassy letter

Edited November 12, 2018 by onera1961

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, mogandave said:

No one has been kicked out yet, and anyone can get a letter that will carry them at least until the end of next year. It could well be that TI will accept expired letters for a while as well.

Approximately June of next year - and only those who find out about this, and get their letters early.  Consider how many redundant questions are posted to this forum - answered dozens of times previously.  Most of those people will begin arranging their embassy appointment after the letters are no longer produced - and be in for a big shock.

 

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I think the embassy and TI are not real concerned, as they do not envision this as being a big deal for people that actually have the resources they claim to have.

Whether it is a "big deal," for thousands of applicants, is entirely up to whatever system replaces the embassy-letters.  Even if "show 65K Baht coming into your Thai bank every month" is the new standard (as some seem sure it will be), many will not be prepared for this, and could lose their extensions, after living here legally / within the rules for years.

 

5 minutes ago, mogandave said:

If TI wanted to get rid of expats, they could have just changed the rules and made it more difficult to stay. They could have just announced that the letter would no longer be accepted and mandate whatever requirements they saw fit.

As we have seen in other areas of immigration-enforcement, there appears to be a split in the power-structure between those who want most of us gone, and those who don't.  The "kick 'em out" clique seems unable to get the hard-line ministerial orders they would like, but still enforce their will in areas where they have local-control (per reports from the Bangkok airports, Phuket immigration-office, etc). 

 

The delay in a clear statement on "what to do now," after this embassy-letter issue (which may have been kicked-off by a hard-liner faction) - after the embassies appear to have waited months (since the May meeting) for some sort of consensus - may be due to this split.

 

5 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I’m guessing they want to get rid of a few deadbeats and or criminals and or people working illegally and or tax evaders. 

I'm guessing many don't want a single foreigner here for more than a week, unless they are "paying tribute," laundered via an agent or elite-visa, for permission to stay longer than that.

[mogandave]

 
Almost certainly, the drug-dealers just pay the agents.  Immigration allows - sometimes forces - thousands of fraudulent applications every year, in exchange for agent-money.  This dwarfs the handful of idiots who may not have under 65K income, and thought committing a felony-crime to get a US-Embassy letter was a wise-move.

Why would you expect drug dealers would not use the letter?

You seem to just pull numbers out of the air and state them as fact. Do you have any way of knowing if any of what you say is factual?

What percentage of applications processed using agents do you think are fraudulent?

[luckyluke]

7 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

a similar and simpler way only to replace embassy letter

Doubt this is possible,

now one document with an amount on it.

In Pattaya mostly checked by trainees in +/- 15 seconds before hand over to an officer.

[cleverman]

On 26 October 2018 at 2:05 PM, 55Jay said:

What a load of disingenuous, passive-aggressive nonsense from Thailand Immigration.

 

Seriously, this whole Income Letter was Thai Immigration's brain child at some point in the past.  They came up with the monthly income scheme, possibly without thinking it through - shocking, innit?  So they cut a deal with Embassies to produce these affidavits/statdecs.  Thais were relieved to get out from under the admin mess they created, and have been happily checking the box they created, ever since.

 

All these years later, they pretend that old verification requirement is now a real thing, then in the same breath, use it to break the deal their predecessors made long ago. 

 

I have no problem with them ending it.  Their country, their train set. 

 

What makes this so krappy is they don't have the balls to own it.  They are hiding behind the curtain whispering their ultimatum, which puts the onus on individual 1st world Embassies to publicly announce they are unable to comply with the Thailand's unyielding gold standard.  We are getting this Drip, Drip, Drip.

 

The irony is, Thailand itself couldn't comply either.  Even if they could they wouldn't.  Not for this reason.  They think they look good now but in the end, they won't.  They are short-sighted, incapable of glimpsing tomorrow's loss of face until it smacks them in the backside. 

I've never read so many assumptions in such a small space before. Not one backed up by known fact. 

[JackThompson]

21 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Why would you expect drug dealers would not use the letter?

Flush with cash, and don't want to talk to cops in person?  Granted, they might not be worried about the potential prison-time - unless they were of a smarter type, who chose not to add more risk-factors to their already-risky way of life.

 

Quote

You seem to just pull numbers out of the air and state them as fact. Do you have any way of knowing if any of what you say is factual?

What percentage of applications processed using agents do you think are fraudulent?

No one has precise numbers.  Immigration don't publish stats like, "We waived seasoning on X-thousand applications in exchange for X-thousand baht brown-envelope-cash per-each."   But it is clearly long-standing and widespread - and doesn't risk prison-time, as the only persons who are violating the law are those involved in any sort of "bribe" which occurs within that process.  At worst, the applicant might have their permit-of-stay revoked - but even that would require immigration "crack down" on itself, and bust a large number of high-ranking personnel, which seems unlikely.

 

It would stand to reason that only those who can't even come up with the 20K to an agent per-year would risk a Felony-charge for lying to get a letter.

Edited November 12, 2018 by JackThompson

[luckyluke]

I guess some Immigration officers must now have nightmares.

 

During their working time they sit there, thinking about their Mia-Noi, or new Mercedes, or even both, checking a single document ( bank letter or embassy letter ).

This could change and they may have to check a pile of documents, ATM slips, Tax Income, bankbooks...

 

 

[GeorgeCross]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

If TI wanted to get rid of expats, they could have just changed the rules and made it more difficult to stay. They could have just announced that the letter would no longer be accepted and mandate whatever requirements they saw fit.

I’m guessing they want to get rid of a few deadbeats and or criminals and or people working illegally and or tax evaders.

Maybe both the embassies and TI are full of spiteful morons trying to create problems for everyone, but I doubt very much that is the case.

 

 

 

my wife used to tell me a story of how her friends would handle unwanted advances from Thai men. in order for him to not 'lose face' they would invite their friends along to dinner dates with him and purposefully order expensive food and drinks. they would repeatedly do this until the hapless guy got the message gave up and moved on to another woman saving embarrassment all round.

 

knowing this do you think immigration would:

 

A) change the rules disavowing us completely, or

B) keep raising the bar until we get the message give up?

 

????

 

 

 

[Naamblar2014]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

  In order to protect this system from competition, short-term loans were blocked for in-person applicants, by adding "seasoning-requirements."  But this "money seasoning" is waived by immigration for agent-applications (you guess why).  

Embassies not agreeing to verify income as per TI request, inadvertently further assist 'to protect this system from competition'

Authorities announce crackdowns,  but it is just to divert attention so they can increase illegal revenue, by increasing agentbusiness and thus the kickbacks. The population sees the government as being proactive at clearing out the foreigners but those same people only wish to offer 'other options' to these foreign people caught up in the latest crackdown / changes that can best benefit themselves.  Truly masters of manipulation and deception.

[mogandave]

No one has precise numbers.  Immigration don't publish stats like, "We waived seasoning on X-thousand applications in exchange for X-thousand baht brown-envelope-cash per-each."   But it is clearly long-standing and widespread - and doesn't risk prison-time, as the only persons who are violating the law are those involved in any sort of "bribe" which occurs within that process.  At worst, the applicant might have their permit-of-stay revoked - but even that would require immigration "crack down" on itself, and bust a large number of high-ranking personnel, which seems unlikely.

 

It would stand to reason that only those who can't even come up with the 20K to an agent per-year would risk a Felony-charge for lying to get a letter.

 

 

Yes, no one has precise numbers, so why state your proportions as fact?

 

I’d bet for every “cheater” agents process, there’re 1,000 legitimate applicants with everything in order that just need someone to walk them through it. We used an agent once, and I remember it costing something less than $50.

 

For every drug dealer “flush with cash” there are a hundred poor sots just trying to subsidize their habit.

[fforest1]

43 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I guess some Immigration officers must now have nightmares.

 

During their working time they sit there, thinking about their Mia-Noi, or new Mercedes, or even both, checking a single document ( bank letter or embassy letter ).

This could change and they may have to check a pile of documents, ATM slips, Tax Income, bankbooks...

 

 

Yea right.....English is not the only other language spoken here....Would love to see immigration looking over Russian or Japanese tax documents...   

[Naamblar2014]

38 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

knowing this do you think immigration would:

 

A) change the rules disavowing us completely, or

B) keep raising the bar until we get the message give up?

 

Or C)take the path of least resistance and opt to use an agent thereby increasing the kickbacks paid to the IO.

 

[fforest1]

Now if they could just figure out a way to get those worthless 800,000 dead money leaches into the agent system....That would be a home run....The uppity 800,000 guys have not been showing proper respect...

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by fforest1

[mogandave]

Now if they could just figure out a way to get those worthless 800,000 dead money leaches into the agent system....That would be a home run....The uppity 800,000 guys have not been showing proper respect by paying a tribute every year.......
 

I’ve never paid a tribute to TI, you?

[pegman]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

 

Yes, no one has precise numbers, so why state your proportions as fact?

 

I’d bet for every “cheater” agents process, there’re 1,000 legitimate applicants with everything in order that just need someone to walk them through it. We used an agent once, and I remember it costing something less than $50.

 

For every drug dealer “flush with cash” there are a hundred poor sots just trying to subsidize their habit.

You paid less than $50, for what exactly? I've been in an agent's office and saw a stack of about 100 same coloured passports. Next to them we're rolls of ฿1000 notes. Easily in the 100k's of ฿aht if not more. Funny I nearly ever see some large expat communities like Arab or South Asian at Jomtien Immigration. I think you are way far off in your estimate. 

[mogandave]

You paid less than $50, for what exactly? I've been in an agent's office and saw a stack of about 100 same coloured passports. Next to them we're rolls of ฿1000 notes. Easily in the 100k's of ฿aht if not more. Funny I nearly ever see some large expat communities like Arab or South Asian at Jomtien Immigration. I think you are way far off in your estimate. 

Would not a hundred passports at $50 a pop require a few rolls of 1,000 Baht notes? Combine the agent fee with the cost of the visa and that’s a good chunk of dough.

Who leaves rolls of money laying out on their desk anyway? Does that impress people? I would think I was trading with a fool.