Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[Peterw42]

23 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

because TI would no longer accept them

Happy to see a quote from either TI or any of the embassies that makes that statement ?

 

Unable to "supply" is not the same as "not accepted"

 

All of the embassies use very specific (identical) language "we are unable to verify", none of the embassies say "TI will not accept. 

 

If you can get to the bottom of why all the statments from the embassies are identical and use the same wording, I think you would get to the bottom of the issue which is more a legal liability issue than an immigration or funds issue.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Peterw42

[onera1961]

Bearsamui stated:

"I earn triple the monthly amount required but don't have the required funds in my thai account"

 

 

 

Wow 7,000 USD monthly income but no money in a Thai account. May be TI don't want people who want to hide their money. ????

Edited November 3, 2018 by CharlieH
Misquote corrected

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Happy to see a quote from either TI or any of the embassies that makes that statement ?

 

Unable to "supply" is not the same as "not accepted"

I would like TI to explain the situation also.  What does an American (Aussie, Brit) need to supply next year, if they don't have a letter, to get an extension?

 

On the rest, maybe I am misunderstanding your point.  Three embassies have said that TI told them they needed to Do Something New - independent verification of income-sources on their letters.  They say they can not do it, and are cancelling the letter-service, because the existing letters do not meet the NEW standard demanded by TI. 

 

Why would TI require a new standard, but still accept letters based on the old-standard in perpetuity? 

 

All we have now (we think), is a "grace period" on letters issued under the original-standard, which seems to cover the use of letters issued through the end of this year, for the usual 6-mo usage-period.  But, even that is speculation, as there has been no info forthcoming official-statement from TI - other than various reports of "An IO told me..." at various offices.

[certacito]

11 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

 

Ergo: Embassy-letters, as they have always been produced to-date, would no longer be of any use. 

The letters as they are now would be fine, IF the embassies verified the income, (which they won't), immigration has not said that they won't accept letters.

[certacito]

19 minutes ago, Media1 said:

Thailand 4 was to be operational in 1w months 3 years ago.. Big Prayut lol

 

It is called Thailand 4.0 and there never was a timeline announced.

 

"However, the government has yet to set out a clear timeline."

 

http://country.eiu.com/article.aspx?articleid=1746126758&Country=Thailand&topic=Economy

[merijn]

2 hours ago, nasa123 said:

Sorry but in Phuket you can not open a bank account if you don’t have a B-visa. 

It is very easy to open a bank account without a B-Visa. ( i did it several times without problems)

But sometimes you have shop around to find a bank or branch willing to do it.

Bangkok Bank is one of the easier ones and a friend just opened last week an bank account on a tourist visa without any issue.

[Pattaya46]

12 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

// TI told them they needed to Do Something New - independent verification of income-sources on their letters. //

In your imagination only... 

 

20+ years ago embassies and TI agreed on this system of Embassy Letter showing our Income.

This year TI reminded embassies that the real income was expected, not an imaginary one.

TI very probably was not expecting BE reaction

 

… I my imagination only because nobody knows exactly.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Pattaya46

[Peterw42]

I seriously think this is a legal liability issue, not much to do with immigration or funds etc.

 

A lawyer somewhere has pointed out that, at the moment, nobody is liable for a income claims. Immigration want the embassies to be liable, embassies want immigration to be liable. 

Its to do with who can be held accountable if an expat becomes Thailands most wanted and questions are asked, how did this guy get in, who verified his income etc.

[jimn]

7 hours ago, HappyAndRich said:

I you prefer to do something else with your money, than the rules in the country states, then you will have to consider that you no longer qualify for a visa like before. If your income doesn´t net 65K, then you never had enough to qualify from start. That´s why they what to see the money know, and not a useless letter with an amount written on it.

If you want a country that lives up to you modern expectations of the 21st century, then Thailand has never been the right choice.

I am sorry if it sounds harsh, but this is the point we are at. The thing is that it´s actually, according to the rules, not a bigger change than that you have to show the real money instead of a piece of paper.

I am sorry but you miss my point. What I am saying is the rules state 65,000 bath and this is GROSS income. In fact my pension is quite above that so my NET income is over 65,000 anyway so my point is about the rules being GROSS and now the advice is saying NET income so thats a change. I dont consider the peice of paper to be worthless. I had to give evidence of my income to get it. The reason I dont want to move 65,000 into a thai account is because I live on the money when I am not in Thailand which is 5 months a year. In addition I have expenses in the UK that have to be paid on my property when I am in Thailand. So its not as clear cut as you seem to think it is. I own outright a house in the UK and via my wife a house in Thailand. So its not about not being able to afford it but is about choice of lifestyle. Apologies to those Aussies on here. I know I am speaking about the UK but the same principles apply all the same.

[TPI]

On 11/2/2018 at 9:01 AM, TSF said:

Looks like all farang living in Thailand on annual extensions will now need to have the 400K & 800K THB in a Thai bank account in order to continue living in Thailand. Now, just wait and see if next year they'll double the required sums. I've been expecting it for a couple years now, but it'll happen because they want you gone.

If you have the income from Oz then there's no problem!

[Peterw42]

7 minutes ago, TPI said:

If you have the income from Oz then there's no problem!

How do you prove that income to Thai immigration, at the moment they only accept income letters from embassies as proof. So there is a problem.

[cleverman]

42 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

How do you prove that income to Thai immigration, at the moment they only accept income letters from embassies as proof. So there is a problem.

The flood gates are gunna open again. Doesn't anybody read what has already been covered in 4 ,or is it 5, threads already. 

[cyberfarang]

9 hours ago, sambum said:

"the corrupt visa agencies that can pull strings will be put out of business"  In an ideal world, maybe, but !!!

 

"those who will try to borrow the lump sums 2 or 3 months before application dates thinking they can fool immigration".

I think that Immigration will care not a jot where the money came from - if it's "seasoned" in the bank for 3 months they'll be quite happy!

Thai immigration certainly cares about from where the monthly incomes are coming from and if you believe they won`t care about the origins of the seasoned amounts, than you`re living in cloud cuckoo land, including if borrowed from an agency or elsewhere.

 

You and many others just don`t seem to get it. This is about good guys in and bad guys out and this time the authorities really mean business. For those like me who are here legitimately and have no problems obtaining visa extensions by the book, will have to endure more procedures at immigration because of those trying to buck the system.

 

The message is as clear as crystal, immigration want expats that have secure sustainable living incomes each month and money invested in a Thai bank account. What will happen now, is those that do not have the funds will be seeking new loop holes and a means of staying in Thailand long term that again will mean more scrutiny by immigration on all of us. Those that have got away with by-passing the system for many years, days are numbered in Thailand. Be prepared, more embassies will follow in due course.

[Pattaya46]

7 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

The message is as clear as crystal, immigration want expats that have secure sustainable living incomes each month and money invested in a Thai bank account. 

Wrong, pure speculation.

The only message we got is :

TI wants the amount on Embassy Letters to be the real income.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Pattaya46

[EricTh]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Each branch is different, as I found out when I went to open a 2nd acct with them, and the branch closest to where I was then living refused.

 

So did I - years ago.  But not so easy everywhere, and harder now than just a year ago even where it used to be easy.
 

 

Yes, I agree. If one branch doesn't want to open an account for you. Go to another branch in the city.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by EricTh

[Russell17au]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

Wow 7,000 USD monthly income but no money in a Thai account. May be TI don't want people who want to hide their money. ????

I would like to know where you quoted that post from as I have never claimed anything like that. Are you altering other peoples posts or are you changing them? Please supply the post number that you are claiming that I have said what you have quoted

[EricTh]

1 minute ago, Pattaya46 said:

Wrong, pure speculation.

The only message we got is that TI wants the amount on Embassy Letters to be the real income.

Agree.

 

There are many penniless people who unscrupulously declare false income. These is from personal accounts from other forummers here.

 

 

 

[KenKadz]

On 11/2/2018 at 9:31 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

So at this point, I'd say it's pretty clear the moving force behind all these changes re income affidavits/letters is Thai Immigration, and not this or that Embassy deciding to be pissy about their workloads.

 

Although, from what the Embassies have said, these latest changes by Immigration seem to have been underway well before BJ just lately became the new Immigration commander. For whatever that is worth.

 

 

Thai Immigration is not asking for anything new, these regulations have been on the books for years.

The change is that Thai Immigration is asking the embassies that may have been verifying fraudulent document for years to be more diligent.

The onus is on the embassies for their years of possible fraud, and now that they can improve their relationship with Thai Immigration they have chosen to throw their citizens under the bus.

[CharlieH]

I find some people are lacking in compassion and perhaps a little understanding wouldnt go amiss either.

Its easy to sit in judgement if you are financially secure etc.

Some people dont have that luxury for one reason or another and feel their life and/or family could/might be ripped apart.

 

So lets just ease up abit on the assumptions and accusations on peoples circumstances shall we.

[jesimps]

3 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Agree.

 

There are many penniless people who unscrupulously declare false income. These is from personal accounts from other forummers here.

 

 

 

I don't think there are any penniless people here, just people who'd prefer their 800,000 invested elsewhere. Some people on here making out that most who're doing the monthly income method are liars, crooks and scroungers. It'd be nice if people just stopped being holier than thou and supported their fellow expats.

[Russell17au]

3 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

I find some people are lacking in compassion and perhaps a little understanding wouldnt go amiss either.

Its easy to sit in judgement if you are financially secure etc.

Some people dont have that luxury for one reason or another and feel their life and/or family could/might be ripped apart.

 

So lets just ease up abit on the assumptions and accusations on peoples circumstances shall we.

Plus CharlieH some people are listing false quotes for some reason as there has been a quote that has been attributed to me which is a total fabrication and it is no where near what I said.

[CharlieH]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Plus CharlieH some people are listing false quotes for some reason as there has been a quote that has been attributed to me which is a total fabrication and it is no where near what I said.

In such cases use the report function on that post and we will address the issue. Thanks.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

The thread you are quoting is a guy that got refused because he didn't have sufficient backup documentation, (his documents didnt add up to 800k) The income letter was not refused. Immigration has always reserved the option to ask for further proof and sometimes exercised this option, nothing new. You are twisting fact to support your argument. 

The Embassies have never said TI "told them their letter are no good", the embassies have all said they are "unable to verify"

THERE ARE NO STATEMENTS FROM TI OR ANY OF THE EMBASSIES THAT LETTERS ARE NO LONGER ACCEPTED.

 

Inventing your own stories doesnt help anyone

"The thread you are quoting is a guy that got refused because he didn't have sufficient backup documentation"

 

I thought that too, until his latest update:-

 

12 hours ago, JakeR said:

UPDATE ON THE SITUATION IN PHUKET

 

<snip>

 

She said they "had a meeting this morning with everyone and we were told that ONLY GOVERNMENT INCOME will be accepted support evidence for the income affidavits, and possibly military income. ALL OTHER FORMS OF FOREIGN INCOME will NOT be RELIABLY ACCEPTED as VALID EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT INCOME AFFIDAVITS."  She said there was a "maybe" for non-government types of oversees income transferred into Thailand (say for example if you own a business oversees) but "you can't do ANYTHING with this maybe," meaning it could easily get denied and that would of course be a problem...

 

She emphasized that ONLY the government incomes will be recognized and others sources CANNOT BE CONSIDERED RELIABLE OR ADVISABLE. This was the clear advice and direction of the upper level officers at the immigration in Phuket, in speaking to the subordinate officers and volunteers, from what I am told and understood. After this, I spoke a bit with her about my plans to let the 400,000 sit for 2 months now, while I extend my visa for 2 months once nearing expiry (important to wait for it to be nearing expiry) and I thanked the volunteer. The kind volunteer was sad about the whole situation unfortunately, because only days ago she had been telling visitors: "the affidavits are still okay for now" which turned quickly to be incorrect.

 

<snip>

 

[ICECOOL]

Bit of a blessing from my point of view. Saves a trip to bkk. Saves 7000 plus baht in costs down in bkk. Easy to print out bank statements to show average monthly income. 

 

Certainly doesn't stop people living on less than the requirement meeting the bank deposit requirements. Creative accounting has been around a long time. 

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, jesimps said:

I don't think there are any penniless people here, just people who'd prefer their 800,000 invested elsewhere. Some people on here making out that most who're doing the monthly income method are liars, crooks and scroungers. It'd be nice if people just stopped being holier than thou and supported their fellow expats.

Exactly.  I prefer to use my savings as 'emergency money' - (previously...) secure in the knowledge that my income was enough to remain in Thailand.

 

If I am unable to use the income route, then my 'emergency money' disappears as if I need to use it - I won't have enough money in the bank to cover the 'money in bank' route.... ☹️

[mfd101]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

I seriously think this is a legal liability issue, not much to do with immigration or funds etc.

 

A lawyer somewhere has pointed out that, at the moment, nobody is liable for a income claims. Immigration want the embassies to be liable, embassies want immigration to be liable. 

Its to do with who can be held accountable if an expat becomes Thailands most wanted and questions are asked, how did this guy get in, who verified his income etc.

Given that Embassies/Consulates are the sovereign territory of the country they represent, the liability you're talking about is in reality a political or public relations one, not a legal or judicial one. (As the Turks have recently been reminded in regard to the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.)

[balo]

5 hours ago, EricTh said:

Opening a  bank account is  not a  problem with Bangkok Bank.

 

I opened it when I was a tourist many years ago. Opening it with retirement  or marriage visa is even easier.

Some banks , including Bangkok Bank , will not open an account for you unless you have a work permit. We've had several threads about this the last year , the banks are refusing tourists and retired people. 

 

 

[stud858]

I was imagining a similar title.  Australia follows UK and USA in  just not bothering and staying home. Less and less of these nationalities I come across in my walks around town. Will we become extinct in Thailand? 

[merijn]

18 minutes ago, balo said:

Some banks , including Bangkok Bank , will not open an account for you unless you have a work permit. We've had several threads about this the last year , the banks are refusing tourists and retired people. 

 

 

Do you have first hand experience ?

I have.

From last week and he was able to open bank account at Bangkok bank in Patong with only a tourist visa and proof of residence from immigration.

It all depends on the branch manager as he has to authorization to accept it or not.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, certacito said:

The letters as they are now would be fine, IF the embassies verified the income, (which they won't), immigration has not said that they won't accept letters.

That is a non-sequitor.  They are not, and have never been "verified" so are not fine "as they are" (any more).

 

3 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

This year TI reminded embassies that the real income was expected, not an imaginary one.

TI very probably was not expecting BE reaction

The letters (Australia and USA) have been statutory declarations - as explained in the text of the letters themselves.  This has been deemed no longer acceptable to TI, though it was for years, prior.

Per the embassies, TI said, "We want you to do verify the information independently," which is not a stat-dec - not the same.  For many person's incomes, it would be a "research project."

 

1 hour ago, KenKadz said:

Thai Immigration is not asking for anything new

Yes, they are.  Unless all 3 embassies are lying.

 

1 hour ago, KenKadz said:

The onus is on the embassies for their years of possible fraud

Have you read the letters?  They state exactly what they are.  There is no "fraud" involved, except on the part of anyone who commits a Felony to lie to a consular officer.

Edited November 3, 2018 by JackThompson