Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

But you COULD file taxes, i often file taxes for clients that don't have to pay tax (lack of income / high deductions). You can always file taxes and it will then show your income and tax already paid (withholding tax is enough to cover it). So you file, and don't have to pay taxes but your income is thuis in the system and checked by the tax office and after that is processed you can ask for a statement from that. 

 

Would be perfect for an embassy then they only have one contact point.. the tax office. fullproof check.

 

 

No thanks, tax forms, or rather the method of working out taxes is complicated for pensioners living outside of Germany. I stay away from tax offices now,' Never go to your lord until called'

[Curt1591]

Although I often enjoy the barstool banter, here at TVF, I always take the information dispensed with a grain of salt. I prefer to do my own research. Being directly affected by the latest situation, and having plenty of spare time due to being retired, I went and visited the Bangkok Immigration office today. This is what i learned ….

 

We spoke with a front facing immigration officer, and the attending supervisor.

 

Thai requirements for long stay visas, set by the Thailand Immigration Bureau, haven’t been amended, by “Big Joke”, or anyone else. The changes are solely the decision the foreign embassies changing their policies. For whatever reason, the individual embassies have made the change. The Thai Immigration bureau will continue to accept verification affidavits until further notice. And they will accept affidavits dated up to 6 months prior to extension.

 

In addition, we showed them my Social Security and pension fund deposit statements for the past year. They said these would not be accepted. They need income verification from the embassy, that same embassy the won’t issue income affidavits.

 

One other option is to have that monthly income directly deposited into a Thai bank, and use that bank’s statement as verification. In the case of Social Security, and my annuity management, foreign bank transfers are a no no.

 

What this means, at least to US citizens, is that the only real means of documenting finances is the Thai Bank account route. Those needing to extend before June, 2019, should get their tails down to the ACS before December 31, but within 6 months of their extension date, for their last easy extension ….

 

Here is the document, sent by the US Embassy, to the Thai Immigration Bureau, that the supervisor was nice enough to print out and share with us. We asked the supervisor if it was OK to post this on the internet. She replied “Please do!”

Edited November 9, 2018 by Curt1591

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, Curt1591 said:

Here is the document, sent by the US Embassy, to the Thai Immigration Bureau, that the supervisor was nice enough to print out and share with us. We asked the supervisor if it was OK to post this on the internet. She replied “Please do!”

That has been post more than once on this forum is is posted on the embassy website.

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/faq_income_affidavit.pdf

[newatthis]

50 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Actually- if they will accept letters - as long as they accept them for 6 months from the issue date on the document- it doesn't matter. At some point the letters from the UK/US/AUS will cease to be issued and the others will continue for  6 months  validity once they are issued.  The problem will be a 2 tier system- the US/UK/AUS will be treated one way and the rest another way.  This is going to create some problems as fair and equitable treatment.  Thai Imm then may decide to do away with all income letters which will make a new whole group of nationalities angry. 

IMHO- the best way is to go back to the letters for everyone- with the proviso you may have to show proof to Thai Imm and then they ask for it as needed and go after those who have lied by sending them to court.

 

The US/UK/AUS should form a joint committee to negotiate with Thai Imm and work out an acceptable wording on the letters.  If you read through all the issues presented by changing the system it will be chaotic and in the end solve nothing.  There is no way to 100% prove  what allegedly Thai Imm is asking to prove- so you have to start with the premise most people are honest and work out ways to detect those who are not. You set a standard profile and  then ask those who fall outside the profile certain questions that you may not ask the others.

 or certain documents you may not ask the others to show. Patterns will form and everyone will become aware that if lying detection is probable.  Is it foolproof- No- but nothing is not even showing 65K in a Thai Bank every month or 800K.

It's not a matter of how foolproof a system is. It's how easy it is for Thai IOs.  40/65 into a Thai bank each month or seasoned 400,000/800,000 is a piece of cake for them to verify. If that is chaotic for any expats, it is of no concern to the IOs.

[soalbundy]

10 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

directly deposited into a Thai bank, and use that bank’s statement as verification. In the case of Social Security, and my annuity management, foreign bank transfers are a no no.

I don't quite understand this, you mean a monthly transfer of funds from your foreign account to a Thai account would not be accepted ?

[cleopatra2]

16 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

Although I often enjoy the barstool banter, here at TVF, I always take the information dispensed with a grain of salt. I prefer to do my own research. Being directly affected by the latest situation, and having plenty of spare time due to being retired, I went and visited the Bangkok Immigration office today. This is what i learned ….

 

We spoke with a front facing immigration officer, and the attending supervisor.

 

Thai requirements for long stay visas, set by the Thailand Immigration Bureau, haven’t been amended, by “Big Joke”, or anyone else. The changes are solely the decision the foreign embassies changing their policies. For whatever reason, the individual embassies have made the change. The Thai Immigration bureau will continue to accept verification affidavits until further notice. And they will accept affidavits dated up to 6 months prior to extension.

 

In addition, we showed them my Social Security and pension fund deposit statements for the past year. They said these would not be accepted. They need income verification from the embassy, that same embassy the won’t issue income affidavits.

 

One other option is to have that monthly income directly deposited into a Thai bank, and use that bank’s statement as verification. In the case of Social Security, and my annuity management, foreign bank transfers are a no no.

 

What this means, at least to US citizens, is that the only real means of documenting finances is the Thai Bank account route. Those needing to extend before June, 2019, should get their tails down to the ACS before December 31, but within 6 months of their extension date, for their last easy extension ….

 

Here is the document, sent by the US Embassy, to the Thai Immigration Bureau, that the supervisor was nice enough to print out and share with us. We asked the supervisor if it was OK to post this on the internet. She replied “Please do!”

Sorry for being pedantic , did Thai Immigration confirm the option of monthly deposits into a Thai bank as an alternative option

Edited November 9, 2018 by cleopatra2

[moontang]

Maybe call the group:  FLAWED...Farang Living Abroad With Excessive Debt.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, moontang said:

Maybe call the group:  FLAWED...Farang Living Abroad With Excessive Debt.

I can imagine which sewing circle you belong to

[pookiki]

27 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

Although I often enjoy the barstool banter, here at TVF, I always take the information dispensed with a grain of salt. I prefer to do my own research. Being directly affected by the latest situation, and having plenty of spare time due to being retired, I went and visited the Bangkok Immigration office today. This is what i learned ….

 

We spoke with a front facing immigration officer, and the attending supervisor.

 

Thai requirements for long stay visas, set by the Thailand Immigration Bureau, haven’t been amended, by “Big Joke”, or anyone else. The changes are solely the decision the foreign embassies changing their policies. For whatever reason, the individual embassies have made the change. The Thai Immigration bureau will continue to accept verification affidavits until further notice. And they will accept affidavits dated up to 6 months prior to extension.

 

In addition, we showed them my Social Security and pension fund deposit statements for the past year. They said these would not be accepted. They need income verification from the embassy, that same embassy the won’t issue income affidavits.

 

One other option is to have that monthly income directly deposited into a Thai bank, and use that bank’s statement as verification. In the case of Social Security, and my annuity management, foreign bank transfers are a no no.

 

What this means, at least to US citizens, is that the only real means of documenting finances is the Thai Bank account route. Those needing to extend before June, 2019, should get their tails down to the ACS before December 31, but within 6 months of their extension date, for their last easy extension ….

 

Here is the document, sent by the US Embassy, to the Thai Immigration Bureau, that the supervisor was nice enough to print out and share with us. We asked the supervisor if it was OK to post this on the internet. She replied “Please do!”

If the statements of the Thai immigration officials are taken at 'face' value, then it indicates there is no problem with income verification affidavits issued by the US, UK, and Australian embassies in their current form.  If true, why are our embassies discontinuing the issuance of the affidavits?  If it is an 'informal practice' that works for the benefit of the affected citizens and Thai Immigration, why should the practice be stopped?

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, pookiki said:

If the statements of the Thai immigration officials are taken at 'face' value, then it indicates there is no problem with income verification affidavits issued by the US, UK, and Australian embassies in their current form.  If true, why are our embassies discontinuing the issuance of the affidavits?  If it is an 'informal practice' that works for the benefit of the affected citizens and Thai Immigration, why should the practice be stopped?

PC is a western condition that has gotten out of control, especially in the anglo world. Verify is now a fetish. In Thailand, clarify, verify, certify, whatever, is possible as seen by other embassies but not for PC UK, US, AUS.

[Curt1591]

28 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Sorry for being pedantic , did Thai Immigration confirm the option of monthly deposits into a Thai bank as an alternative option

The supervisor was the one who offered up this option for "documentation of monthly income" without embassy affidavit..

[pookiki]

3 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

The supervisor was the one who offered up this option for "documentation of monthly income" without embassy affidavit..

As I read your post, this had to be done by direct deposit by your source of retirement funds, i.e. Social Security.  Correct?

[Curt1591]

41 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't quite understand this, you mean a monthly transfer of funds from your foreign account to a Thai account would not be accepted ?

US Social Security, and my funds management company, do not make transfers to foreign bank accounts. My Stateside bank, into which my funds are deposited, does not make transfers to foreign banks. If your money can be tranferred into foreign accounts (Thai bank), you're good to go. Just use the Thai bank statement, showing the monthly deposits into you Thai account, as your documentation. 

I don't believe the only requirement is that the source of the monthly deposits come from a foreign source, not cash or another Thai account.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Curt1591

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

The supervisor was the one who offered up this option for "documentation of monthly income" without embassy affidavit..

that doesn't answer the question, are we to understand that a pension can be directly transferred to Thailand by the pension provider and this would be accepted but a monthly transfer of funds by yourself to a Thai account would not be acceptable ? was this your take of the conversation ?

OK, you have answered already, our posts crossed, thanks for the info

Edited November 9, 2018 by soalbundy

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

US Social Security, and my funds management company, do not make transfers to foreign bank accounts. My Stateside bank, into which my funds are deposited, does not make transfers to foreign banks. If your money can be tranferred into foreign accounts (Thai bank), you're good to go. Just use the Thai bank statement, showing the monthly deposits into you Thai account, as your documentation. 

use transferwise and your problems are solved.

[Spidey]

Just now, soalbundy said:

PC is a western condition that has gotten out of control, especially in the anglo world. Verify is now a fetish. In Thailand, clarify, verify, certify, whatever, is possible as seen by other embassies but not for PC UK, US, AUS.

There could also be hidden agendas. Maybe these embassies were waiting for an opportunity to stop the letters. For the UK, downsizing embassy, no letters = less staff and less office space. For US Embassy, they have issues with people entering the embassy due to security concerns. No idea why the Australian Embassy wants to cease the letters but that doesn't mean that they don't have an ulterior motive.

[Curt1591]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

use transferwise and your problems are solved.

Thanks, but I'm set.

[JLCrab]

6 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

If your money can be tranferred into foreign accounts (Thai bank), you're good to go. Just use the Thai bank statement, showing the monthly deposits into you Thai account, as your documentation. 

Whether as of today I am good to go or not, I started this month with a 65K+ baht FTT transfer via SWIFT. I'll have until mid-2019 to find out whether this will be acceptable for extension or not. Stay tuned.

[pookiki]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

that doesn't answer the question, are we to understand that a pension can be directly transferred to Thailand by the pension provider and this would be accepted but a monthly transfer of funds by yourself to a Thai account would not be acceptable ? was this your take of the conversation ?

Bangkok Bank can make arrangements for the direct deposit of Social Security payments from the US.  However, the funds must go into a 'separate' account and withdrawals must be made in person with a passbook for transfer to your regular savings account.  Based on what was represented by Thai Immigration, if this deposit was at least 65.000 baht or more, you 'should' be OK -- maybe.

[Curt1591]

15 minutes ago, pookiki said:

As I read your post, this had to be done by direct deposit by your source of retirement funds, i.e. Social Security.  Correct?

It has to be direct deposited from an institution outside Thailand. My understanding is that it can be any financial institution. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Curt1591

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

US Social Security, and my funds management company, do not make transfers to foreign bank accounts.

I have my social security payments direct deposited by the SSA into my Bangkok Bank account via their New Your branch every month.

[Spidey]

8 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

US Social Security, and my funds management company, do not make transfers to foreign bank accounts. My Stateside bank, into which my funds are deposited, does not make transfers to foreign banks. If your money can be tranferred into foreign accounts (Thai bank), you're good to go. Just use the Thai bank statement, showing the monthly deposits into you Thai account, as your documentation. 

I don't believe the only requirement is that the source of the monthly deposits come from a foreign source, not cash or another Thai account.

It's my belief that the monthly deposits need to be proven to be coming from an income source. This method wouldn't prove that. Only transferring your money directly from the income source would prove that. Hence why the letters are referred to as income letters.

[cleopatra2]

16 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

The supervisor was the one who offered up this option for "documentation of monthly income" without embassy affidavit..

Please feel free not to answer the following if you so wish

 

In your opinion did the supervisor appear confident iwhen making this statement.

Was there any inclinations to feel that this was only for the Bangkok area/office

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Whether as of today I am good to go or not, I started this month with a 65K+ baht FTT transfer via SWIFT. I'll have until mid-2019 to find out whether this will be acceptable for extension or not. Stay tuned.

I shall start end of this month, as 'Dory' said in the film 'finding Nemo', ''this is going to be good I can tell''

[Curt1591]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

That has been post more than once on this forum is is posted on the embassy website.

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/faq_income_affidavit.pdf

I guess I simply put it in the context of Thai Immigration's perspective on the issue. They seem to be as frustrated as the ticked off retirees! 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Curt1591

[Spidey]

Just now, cleopatra2 said:

Please feel free not to answer the following if you so wish

 

In your opinion did the supervisor appear confident iwhen making this statement.

Was there any inclinations to feel that this was only for the Bangkok area/office

Unfortunately Thai people have a habit of telling you what you want to hear, whether it's true or not!

 

It's not malicious, they are just trying to please you and avoid conflict. Always take any facts that a Thai gives you with a pinch of salt.

[pookiki]

The issue of 'income' verification in lieu of 800,000 baht in the bank has been thrashed about with no clear indication of what is acceptable to show 'income'. We should not lose focus that the purpose of this thread is to get our embassies to reinstate the issuance of income verification affidavits if Thai Immigration is telling they have no problem with the content of the letter as it now exists.

Edited November 9, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

t's my belief that the monthly deposits need to be proven to be coming from an income source. This method wouldn't prove that. Only transferring your money directly from the income source would prove that. Hence why the letters are referred to as income letters.

Virtually impossible to get foreign companies to transfer pensions/investment income into a foreign bank account.  Never going to happen except for isolated instances and US Social Security. My annuity fund refuse to even consider it.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Bangkok Bank can make arrangements for the direct deposit of Social Security payments from the US.  However, the funds must go into a 'separate' account and withdrawals must be made in person with a passbook for transfer to your regular savings account.  Based on what was represented by Thai Immigration, if this deposit was at least 65.000 baht or more, you 'should' be OK -- maybe.

 although my German state pension can be transferred anywhere, my company pension can only go to a German bank, surely transferwise can deposit money into my Thai savings account and that should suffice, a bit messy with withdrawals admittedly.

[moontang]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Virtually impossible to get foreign companies to transfer pensions/investment income into a foreign bank account.  Never going to happen except for isolated instances and US Social Security. My annuity fund refuse to even consider it.

most could set up their home account with an auto-transfer every month..you would never even notice the extra step.