Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[onera1961]

4 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

No problem.  My three UK pensions are paid into an HSBC account in the UK.  Bangkok Bank has a branch in London, so as and when I require funds I go on line to HSBC and transfer the amount I want (GBP) to BB London who in turn transfer the GBP to my Foreign Savings Account at BB HQ in BKK.  The funds are normally available next day because of time difference. 

 

BB make a nominal charge for the transfer and I get their TT rate when I convert the GBP to THB.  The bank book provides an audit trail of overseas fund arriving in Thailand if needed.  Has worked well for me for the past 10 years.

 

FYI…. BB is able to offer the same arrangement via their New York Branch https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Other-Services/Transfers/Transferring-Into-Thailand/Transfer-money-from-US-to-Thailand-via-Bangkok-Bank-NewYork-branch

I need steps to verify trial deposits from major banks (outlines above) to Bangkok bank for first time linking of the two accounts. All other info are redundant. Not useful at all. All my trials deposits were rejected by Bangkok bank because they don't conform to IACH format. Specifically for the US banks. Not sure about London banks

Edited November 9, 2018 by onera1961

[onera1961]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

No, and don't bother, how long have you been in Thailand ?

I don't live permanently in Thailand but coming to Thailand for 14 years. (since 2004). For the last year, I am on O-A visa

Edited November 9, 2018 by onera1961

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, onera1961 said:

I don't live permanently in Thailand but coming to Thailand for 14 years. (since 2004). For the last year, I am on O-A visa

that explains it

[The Truth]

10 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

It's a fortune if you don't have it because your money is invested with house and family, what are you doing on this thread, gloating?

I'm not gloating. I'm asking a question and your response goes part of the way to answering it.

 

You're essentially saying that some just don't have the money.

Well that, good sir, means they don't meet the financial requirements in which case they cannot have the extensions of stay which is precisely the point of the immigration service's insistence on income verification.

People seem outraged by the fact that they're no longer allowed to fiddle their way to a one year extension.

The sheer entitlement of it is astonishing.

 

 

[JLCrab]

From the recent UK Embassy - Bangkok posting:

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, The Truth said:

I'm not gloating. I'm asking a question and your response goes part of the way to answering it.

 

You're essentially saying that some just don't have the money.

Well that, good sir, means they don't meet the financial requirements in which case they cannot have the extensions of stay which is precisely the point of the immigration service's insistence on income verification.

People seem outraged by the fact that they're no longer allowed to fiddle their way to a one year extension.

The sheer entitlement of it is astonishing.

 

 

I don't fiddle anything, I have more than the required income, have been here 14 years, two houses and a family to keep so keep your assertions to yourself, as a newbie you are starting off on the wrong foot. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

22 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

FYI…. BB is able to offer the same arrangement via their New York Branch https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Other-Services/Transfers/Transferring-Into-Thailand/Transfer-money-from-US-to-Thailand-via-Bangkok-Bank-NewYork-branch

 

BKKB NY is ending that transfer capability for U.S. folks as of April 2019.

 

They're saying it will continue if customers use something called an International ACH. But in the real world, that's not a transfer method that's available to virtually any U.S. bank customers. So in effect, the NY transfer method is ending.

 

And that's coming at a particularly bad time, given the potential changes from Thai Immigration.  Although, traditional, and usually expensive, wire transfers will still be possible.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

23 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

I need steps to verify trial deposits from major banks (outlines above) to Bangkok bank for first time linking of the two accounts. All other info are redundant. Not useful at all. All my trials deposits were rejected by Bangkok bank because they don't conform to IACH format. Specifically for the US banks. Not sure about London banks

 

BKKB NY is closed now for setting up NEW ACH transfer links that involve trial deposits. People with pre-existing ACH links between their U.S. bank and BKKB NY supposedly will continue to use those until April 2019. But after that, those will cease to work also.

 

[pookiki]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

BKKB NY is ending that transfer capability for U.S. folks as of April 2019.

 

They're saying it will continue if customers use something called an International ACH. But in the real world, that's not a transfer method that's available to virtually any U.S. bank customers. So in effect, the NY transfer method is ending.

 

And that's coming at a particularly bad time, given the potential changes from Thai Immigration.  Although, traditional, and usually expensive, wire transfers will still be possible.

 

Yes, it seem like there's a lot of shit hitting the fan at the same time.  I have started an email conversation with TransferWise to see if they can meet Bangkok Banks IAT requirements for bank transfers from the US to Thailand after 1 April 2019. The initial response from TransferWise seems encouraging put I still need more information on the procedures they want to effect such transfers.  Do you think Citibank may be a viable alternative to Bangkok Bank?

[The Truth]

33 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't fiddle anything, I have more than the required income, have been here 14 years, two houses and a family to keep so keep your assertions to yourself, as a newbie you are starting off on the wrong foot. 

Excuse me but where did i say that you fiddled your way to an extension?

Guilty conscience, perhaps?

Oh and what bearing does my newbie status have on the facts?

Do I need to have 10,000 posts before I can tell it like it is?

If people don't have the funds then they cannot have the extension. 

That's pretty much it.

Edited November 9, 2018 by The Truth

[gk10002000]

12 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

That's because gains within an IRA are not, and have never been considered income (At least until you withdraw it). If you are claiming non-withdrawn investment returns from within an IRA and using that to verify income, then that's clearly not what Thailand is after. It would be a very wide stretch of the imagination to claim that it is income as even the IRS doesn't - and you know they go after everything.

 

Again let me say that the IRS is very smart in determining what is actual income. An actual tax return is the best way to verify income for any American. 

 

 

It absolutely positively IS income.  I just choose NOTto use it.  It is income just the same as my regular Brokerage account dividends and interest are income that are automatically reinvested each month or quarter via the "DRIP".  I don't and won't use much of that income.  By your logic, I would only assert income that I actually withdraw from my regular brokerage account.  I withdraw monies as needed, when needed.   In the meantime they sit where they are and accrue and compound.  Most people get "income" from pensions and don't really have or understand how an investment portfolio can give them income, since most people at best cash withdraw down their meager 401k's or have a pension, or military or disability benefit or social security.

[DUNROAMIN]

Non of the above is relevant, go to the web page, https:/www.immigration.go.th/content/service-22. sorry the dash is a underscore, not sure how to type. Change the page to English, and read all the retirement criteria. Thai immigration has changed nothing, they are closing the loop-hole with doggy affidavits. Provide the correct documents from your home country or Thai bank statements and you will have no problems.

Also watch the two videos by JC on retire.cheap asia on utube, crystal clear for me.

Cheers.  

[pookiki]

7 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Well in addition to the above, maybe you should go here where some of the decisions regarding suggestions as in the template letter will actually be made (with a 5000 character limit for some of the long-winded types):

 

https://register.state.gov/contactus/contactusform

 

 

Here is the response from the 'decision makers'!

 

November 09, 2018

Dear Gregory,

Contact information for U.S. embassies abroad can be found here:  https://www.usembassy.gov/

Thank you for contacting the U.S. Department of State.


Bureau of Public Affairs
Office of Public Engagement

**Please DO NOT REPLY to this e-mail address. It is not monitored for responses.**

[Odysseus123]

2 hours ago, The Truth said:

I'm not gloating. I'm asking a question and your response goes part of the way to answering it.

 

You're essentially saying that some just don't have the money.

Well that, good sir, means they don't meet the financial requirements in which case they cannot have the extensions of stay which is precisely the point of the immigration service's insistence on income verification.

People seem outraged by the fact that they're no longer allowed to fiddle their way to a one year extension.

The sheer entitlement of it is astonishing.

 

 

"the sheer entitlement is astonishing."

 

'The Truth'-8 posts.

 

I love the verve,the dash and the sense of humour.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Odysseus123

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, pookiki said:

Yes, it seem like there's a lot of shit hitting the fan at the same time.  I have started an email conversation with TransferWise to see if they can meet Bangkok Banks IAT requirements for bank transfers from the US to Thailand after 1 April 2019. The initial response from TransferWise seems encouraging put I still need more information on the procedures they want to effect such transfers.  Do you think Citibank may be a viable alternative to Bangkok Bank?

 

Transferwise certainly can be used to transfer funds from U.S. banks to Thai banks, even with BKKB NY having nothing to do with it.  Although, TFW is raising their fees now or very soon for U.S. to Thailand transfers. Think of Transferwise as a kind of wire transfer substitute.

 

As for the International ACH issue, I don't know of any U.S. bank that currently enables IAT compatible ACH transfers for their customers. Wire transfers yes. IATs, I know of none.

 

[gk10002000]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 7:51 PM, ubonjoe said:

I am not sure that the US Embassy can do much more than they have already done or what they are still trying to do in the background now. You can be sure they have not washed their hands of the problem.

The Thai MInistry of Foreign Affairs has nothing to do with extension of stay (they are not visas) applications. Immigration sets the requirements for extensions of stay applications.

You seem to of forgotten or are not aware that it is not only those on extension of stay based upon retirement that are affected by the change. The are many that apply for extension based upon marriage to a Thai or for being the parent of a Thai who have been using a income affidavit to apply for their extensions.

Yep.  Many people will be affected with this.  Many people don't have a lot of disposable income and have and would have difficulty putting 800k Baht lump sum in an account.  In general, most people are paycheck to paycheck.  Toughening up the income requirements or proof thereof is going to be challenging for many people. 

[onera1961]

32 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

It is income just the same as my regular Brokerage account dividends and interest are income that are automatically reinvested each month or quarter via the "DRIP". 

You can hold securities directly or within a fund. If interests and dividends are held within a fund are directly deposited into the fund and re-invested, IRS does not consider it to be income. If the interests and dividends are deposited to your brokerage account, they are considered income (even if reinvested after the deposit has occurred) If your brokerage account gives you a monthly statements clearly stating how much was deposited in your brokerage account than it will be accepted by TI, I guess. 

[gk10002000]

13 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

That's because gains within an IRA are not, and have never been considered income (At least until you withdraw it). If you are claiming non-withdrawn investment returns from within an IRA and using that to verify income, then that's clearly not what Thailand is after. It would be a very wide stretch of the imagination to claim that it is income as even the IRS doesn't - and you know they go after everything.

 

Again let me say that the IRS is very smart in determining what is actual income. An actual tax return is the best way to verify income for any American. 

 

 

I am NOT talking about GAINS.  gains are NOT steady repeatable income.  This is where most people just don't understand passive income.  I get dividends and interest from stocks and bonds and funds. I do NOT sell anything.   have 1Million USD earning right at 6% on average.  And I add that dividends and interest that are paid into an IRA are documented and I or anybody could produce documentation that shows that.  Just because I don't use those dividends or don't withdraw them, does not mean they are not income.  The dividends and interest that are in my IRA accounts ARE income.  They just are not Taxed until I withdraw them (traditional IRA anyway.  The ROTH IRA distributions are tax free.

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, onera1961 said:

You can hold securities directly or within a fund. If interests and dividends are held within a fund are directly deposited into the fund and re-invested, IRS does not consider it to be income. If the interests and dividends are deposited to your brokerage account, they are considered income (even if reinvested after the deposit has occurred) If your brokerage account gives you a monthly statements clearly stating how much was deposited in your brokerage account than it will be accepted by TI, I guess. 

You guess?

[gk10002000]

1 minute ago, onera1961 said:

You can hold securities directly or within a fund. If interests and dividends are held within a fund are directly deposited into the fund and re-invested, IRS does not consider it to be income. If the interests and dividends are deposited to your brokerage account, they are considered income (even if reinvested after the deposit has occurred) If your brokerage account gives you a monthly statements clearly stating how much was deposited in your brokerage account than it will be accepted by TI, I guess. 

I think you miss the point.  The guy was saying that my IRA dividends and interest are not income.  They most definitely are income.  Those IRA incomes just are not reported on the 1040.  As I post elsewhere I can show documentation of the monies going into the IRA.  Just because I don't withdraw the monies from the IRA does not mean it is not income.  As for your comment about the regular brokerage account, of course those dividends and interest are reported.  I said that.   I know that.  I have been doing this for decades.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

I think you miss the point.  The guy was saying that my IRA dividends and interest are not income.  They most definitely are income.  Those IRA incomes just are not reported on the 1040.  As I post elsewhere I can show documentation of the monies going into the IRA.  Just because I don't withdraw the monies from the IRA does not mean it is not income.  As for your comment about the regular brokerage account, of course those dividends and interest are reported.  I said that.   I know that.  I have been doing this for decades.

I disagree with you.

IRA's are a special kind of account.

Only amounts withdrawn are reportable as income to the IRS. 

Roth ones are not taxed by traditional ones are, that is the amount that is WITHDRAWN. 

I've considered it also debatable whether withdrawn IRA funds that reportable as INCOME to the IRS are really technically "income" by the standards of the Thai immigration system. On that I'm not sure but as they seem to be transitioning away from verifying income as opposed to only looking into transfers in, perhaps an academic distinction. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Jingthing

[onera1961]

9 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

Just because I don't withdraw the monies from the IRA does not mean it is not income.  As for your comment about the regular brokerage account, of course those dividends and interest are reported. 

I think the point is how much money is deposited in to a Thai bank account (not in your brokerage account). A don't know any country (where retirement is allowed, e.g Malaysia) relies on embassy affidavit. All countries require money deposited into your local banks. It does not matter how much your income is, are you depositing the minimum required amount into a bank physically located inside Thailand? If not you're out. And I like this system. Put the money in a Thai bank (even if you circulate it in a round robin fashion), and get the extension. Easy and simple. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by onera1961

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think none of this is going to end up being relevant to Thailand Immigration's monthly income policy (though who knows...)

 

But I do know, I have Roth and regular IRA accounts. Every month, they generate regular and predictable dividend INCOME that gets credited to my accounts. And it's my choice to either reinvest that income into other investments, leave that income as cash balances, or withdraw that income (and pay tax on it for a regular IRA, or pay no tax on it for a Roth IRA).

 

Do I consider those dividend earning as income? Absolutely I do. Just as Thai Immigration regs say that bank interest and various other sources are countable as income. But whether any of that will have any meaning under the coming no income letters Immigration regime, I have no idea.

 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

I think the point is how much money is deposited in to a Thai bank account (not in your brokerage account). A don't know any country (where retirement is allowed, e.g Malaysia) relies on embassy affidavit. All countries require money deposited into your local banks. It does not matter how much your income is, are you depositing the minimum required amount into a bank physically located inside Thailand? If not you're out. And I like this system. Put the money in a Thai bank (even if you circulate it in a round robin fashion), and get the extension. Easy and simple. 

That is 100 percent incorrect! The majority of nations that have formal retirement programs for foreigners with income methods absolutely DO NOT require import into their banks. Some do. MOST DO NOT.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I think none of this is going to end up being relevant to Thailand Immigration's monthly income policy (though who knows...)

 

But I do know, I have Roth and regular IRA accounts. Every month, they generate regular and predictable dividend INCOME that gets credited to my accounts. And it's my choice to either reinvest that income into other investments, leave that income as cash balances, or withdraw that income (and pay tax on it for a regular IRA, or pay no tax on it for a Roth IRA).

 

Do I consider those dividend earning as income? Absolutely I do. Just as Thai Immigration regs say that bank interest and various other sources are countable as income. But whether any of that will have any meaning under the coming no income letters Immigration regime, I have no idea.

 

As I indicated, Roth and traditional may be seen differently as they certainly are from a U.S. taxation situation. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, Jingthing said:

That is 100 percent incorrect! The majority of nations that have formal retirement programs for foreigners with income methods absolutely DO NOT require import into their banks. Some do. MOST DO NOT.

 

That's interesting Jing... I know you've spent a lot of time researching these kinds of issues in the past.

 

I'd be curious to know, can you point to some countries where their foreigner retirement schemes do NOT require importing the funds into local banks?

 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's interesting Jing... I know you've spent a lot of time researching these kinds of issues in the past.

 

I'd be curious to know, can you point to some countries where their foreigner retirement schemes do NOT require importing the funds into local banks?

 

Almost all of them! The exceptions are few. For example Peru. 

The typical thing in Latin America (where most of these formal programs exist) is for government pension income to be proven by documentation that is APOSTLED, typically done ONE TIME, sometimes more often.

That's a reason I've been trying to lobby people to get the message to Thai immigration to allow retired people to get a certificate good for life for lifetime income streams, specifically GOVERNMENT PENSIONS.

Most other nations with such programs treat GOVERNMENT PENSIONS in a special way. I wish Thailand would consider that as well. But yes, I know they probably won't. Of course that would need to be combined with keeping the combination method as most people that retire abroad do not have as much as 65K per month in government pension income. The Latin American programs are mostly requiring between 800 and 1500 U.S. dollars per month, significantly under 65K baht. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Jingthing

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, Jingthing said:

As I indicated, Roth and traditional may be seen differently as they certainly are from a U.S. taxation situation. 

 

IMHO, for whatever it's worth, I don't think one's home country accounts tax status probably has much correlation to what Thai Immigration might consider legitimate income -- unless of course they were to go to a system that relied on people showing their national income tax filing as documentation, which I don't think is anywhere in the offing.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Almost all of them! The exceptions are few. For example Peru. 

 

Don't the Phils require you to make some kind of bank deposit or local real estate investment?  And I thought something similar in Malaysia....

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[onera1961]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The majority of nations that have formal retirement programs for foreigners with income methods absolutely DO NOT require import into their banks. Some do. MOST DO NOT.

Can you give a few examples. may be all those people whining about or reluctant to bring 65K/month to Thailand, should move to those countries. In Malaysia, I know you have to bring the money inside the country.