Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[Will27]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I think you missed my point which was, it's advantageous for a government to have it's citizens living abroad, i.e. Still pay tax and don't draw down on services provided. Not even from services provided by the embassy now.

I did agree with you in my first reply.

 

It is advantageous economically wise for a country to have expats who aren't using the health system

and social security etc.

 

But, expats just don't have any currency. Most don't vote and the public in general wouldn't care either.

 

I cannot see embassies, well the Aussie one anyway starting, to verify people's incomes.

It would be a massive job if done correctly.

[wgdanson]

10 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

If you do not have the funds you cannot legally be here, simple

I was not refeeing to whether you had the money or not. I was just saying that the 'money coming in' every month is not an option, unless it adds up to 800k in nine months. Then you have your 800k, which at the moment will be the only way to stay.

 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, wgdanson said:

I was not refeeing to whether you had the money or not. I was just saying that the 'money coming in' every month is not an option, unless it adds up to 800k in nine months. Then you have your 800k, which at the moment will be the only way to stay.

 

I do not think you are correct. Expats in Korat have stated (on other forums) that money coming in every month from abroad is good enough to meet the requirement. A lot of speculation with not a lot of facts is not helpful. Assuming that Thai immigration will not change current requirements in the face of foreign embassies no longer providing documentation may be true, but with equal chance of being not true. Follow the rules and be able to document 45K/65K baht coming in per month and you will likely be OK. In any case there is nothing you can do about it so why worry about something that you can do nothing about. 

[soalbundy]

9 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I did agree with you in my first reply.

 

It is advantageous economically wise for a country to have expats who aren't using the health system

and social security etc.

 

But, expats just don't have any currency. Most don't vote and the public in general wouldn't care either.

 

I cannot see embassies, well the Aussie one anyway starting, to verify people's incomes.

It would be a massive job if done correctly.

The question is, who wants it done correctly ?  It is pointless since it can't be done, the nearest you can get is to have the embassy certify they have seen your documents which show x amount of income and up to now everyone was satisfied with that and since all the other embassies are still issuing letters that are being accepted the IO's are still satisfied with this procedure, 3 anglo embassies have spat the dummy out, we shall see where this leads.

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

I was not refeeing to whether you had the money or not. I was just saying that the 'money coming in' every month is not an option, unless it adds up to 800k in nine months. Then you have your 800k, which at the moment will be the only way to stay.

 

nothing has changed as of yet.

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

I was not refeeing to whether you had the money or not. I was just saying that the 'money coming in' every month is not an option, unless it adds up to 800k in nine months. Then you have your 800k, which at the moment will be the only way to stay.

 

nothing has changed as of yet.

[JackThompson]

9 hours ago, Wake Up said:

I recently saw several sleeping on the beach when I worked out early in the am. Also had a guy stand outside Bangkok bank on soi Buakhao trying to tell some sad story to borrow 10,000 baht to get to his “home country”. See some also in Bangkok but more in Pattaya. Sad really but if I was Thailand I would not want the financial burden of these expats when they get sick or desperate to steal to get by. 

 

9 hours ago, Spidey said:

See one hanging about outside Tesco Lotus on Sukhumvit regularly. A classic tramp. Have seen others around Soi Buakhau.

News to me - but easy for the police to arrest, and hand over to immigration for deportation.  A report here of a younger "busker" (playing music for money) comes to mind - arrested and deported.

 

As to illness, any permit-of-stay should require "stabilize and repatriate" (not long-term health) insurance - per my post above: https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1067199-expats-need-to-organize-in-face-of-embassies-discontinuance-of-income-verification-letters/?do=findComment&comment=13544135

 

With that, immigration does not have to harm the thousands of Thai-citizens who have businesses/careers due to expat-spending, but can eliminate the only potential economic-downside of our presence.

 

[wgdanson]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

nothing has changed as of yet.

Except that the Embassies will not be issuing the letters......which Immigrationwill still accept.

[JackThompson]

9 hours ago, pookiki said:

I cut and pasted this post from another thread (Just received some bad news for US citizens)-- I am posting it because the manner in which the Netherlands is addressing this issue for their expat community should serve as a template for the UK/US/and Australia Embassies!  This is the solution I had been contemplating for some time!!

The only problem I see with the Dutch system, is that is is essentially the same as the now-dying British system.  Unless there is more to it than was provided in that post, they are not contacting each source of reported-income and verifying the amounts given, so the documents being "verified" could be fraudulent.

[Spidey]

Just now, JackThompson said:

News to me - but easy for the police to arrest, and hand over to immigration for deportation.  A report here of a younger "busker" (playing music for money) comes to mind - arrested and deported.

I think that the ones that I have seen are suffering from serious mental health problems, as are the majority of those that sleep on the streets in the UK. Thais tend to give these people a wide berth.

[Lovethailandelite]

The British Embassy ARE NOT INTERESTED in the way other Embassy's go about there business. The BE cannot and will not be verifying income the way the Thai authorities want it done.
If other Embassy's wish to carry on issuing income letters,that is there provocative to do so. If they carry on issuing them and cannot categorically 100% verify there citizens income, the letters after January 2019 will simply be rejected by Immigration as they are not fit for purpose.

[soalbundy]

Just now, wgdanson said:

Except that the Embassies will not be issuing the letters......which Immigrationwill still accept.

3 embassies, only 3, the German embassy that I use due to my German pension has told me they have no plans to stop issuing the letter.

[Spidey]

Just now, Lovethailandelite said:

the letters after January 2019 will simply be rejected by Immigration as they are not fit for purpose.

Where do you get this information from? All the indications that I've seen suggest that TI will continue to accept embassy letters for the foreseeable future.

 

The only problem is that 3 embassies will no longer issue the letters after their respective cut off dates.

[Olmate]

9 hours ago, Spidey said:

See one hanging about outside Tesco Lotus on Sukhumvit regularly. A classic tramp. Have seen others around Soi Buakhau.

So you regularly hang around Tesco Lotus, bit odd!

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The only problem I see with the Dutch system, is that is is essentially the same as the now-dying British system.  Unless there is more to it than was provided in that post, they are not contacting each source of reported-income and verifying the amounts given, so the documents being "verified" could be fraudulent.

Like the Germans they aren't verifying anything (which can't be done anyway) they are certifying that they have seen the supporting documents relating to income (without writing an unnecessary caveat) it's all the IO wants, the BE is standing on principle, the word 'verify'......TIT who cares.

[Will27]

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The question is, who wants it done correctly ?  It is pointless since it can't be done, the nearest you can get is to have the embassy certify they have seen your documents which show x amount of income and up to now everyone was satisfied with that and since all the other embassies are still issuing letters that are being accepted the IO's are still satisfied with this procedure, 3 anglo embassies have spat the dummy out, we shall see where this leads.

I can understand the Aussie stat dec with no supporting documentation being a bit skinny, but from what I understand,

The UK embassy requested bank statements or tax returns. IMO, that should be enough.

 

Maybe 3 of the bigger embassies tried to call TI's bluff and it bit them (us) on the arse?

 

Maybe some on here are right in that in the future, they will just want to see a lump sum in a Thai bank.

[Curt1591]

I'm working on covering all my bases, from getting documentation from my income dispensing institutions, to planting my 800K in the bank. I'm just sorry for the poor fools who pop in, clueless. And, I dread the thought of all the stuffed up queues, waiting for people trying to work it out at the time of extension. 

[Time Traveller]

3 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

No!  A tax return does not necessarily show passive investment income.  For example, I get ~ 25k in my traditional IRA, and about 20k in my ROTH IRA.  But those monies do NOT show up as income unless I withdraw those monies from those accounts!  Then yes, those distributions are listed (both taxable and taxed) on the first page of the US 1040 tax form.  My regular brokerage account passive investment income is also about $25 k and those monies, both taxable and tax free are shown on the 1040. 

That's because gains within an IRA are not, and have never been considered income (At least until you withdraw it). If you are claiming non-withdrawn investment returns from within an IRA and using that to verify income, then that's clearly not what Thailand is after. It would be a very wide stretch of the imagination to claim that it is income as even the IRS doesn't - and you know they go after everything.

 

Again let me say that the IRS is very smart in determining what is actual income. An actual tax return is the best way to verify income for any American. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Time Traveller

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

I'm working on covering all my bases, from getting documentation from my income dispensing institutions, to planting my 800K in the bank. I'm just sorry for the poor fools who pop in, clueless. And, I dread the thought of all the stuffed up queues, waiting for people trying to work it out at the time of extension. 

Let us see if all your verification is of any use without the embassy letter.

[pookiki]

14 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The only problem I see with the Dutch system, is that is is essentially the same as the now-dying British system.  Unless there is more to it than was provided in that post, they are not contacting each source of reported-income and verifying the amounts given, so the documents being "verified" could be fraudulent.

I haven't seen the income verification letter that UK provides its citizens, so I cannot attest that the content of the letters are identical. What is clear, however, is that the Netherlands has not indicated any problems with Thai Immigration officials with respect its (the income verification affidavit/letter) continued viability.  And there are many other embassies that have not taken any action to revoke the issuance of income verification affidavits.  I can only speculate as to the reasons the vast majority of embassies in Thailand are not having a problem with this issue.  But what it does indicate to me is that there is a solution for this problem.

[Spidey]

Just now, Curt1591 said:

I'm working on covering all my bases, from getting documentation from my income dispensing institutions, to planting my 800K in the bank. I'm just sorry for the poor fools who pop in, clueless. And, I dread the thought of all the stuffed up queues, waiting for people trying to work it out at the time of extension. 

That's my biggest worry, too many people with false hopes (given by certain posters on TVF) who are going to get caught out when the time comes for their extension renewals plus many more who don't log in to TVF. Just watched an American vlogger, this morning, doing just that. 2k views in the last 24 hours. His previous vlog, in the same vein, has had 20k views in a week. Criminal.

 

 

 

[Pattaya46]

17 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

If [other Embassies] carry on issuing [income letter] and cannot categorically 100% verify there citizens income, the letters after January 2019 will simply be rejected by Immigration as they are not fit for purpose.

I really doubt about that. Source ?

If ever TI is not satisfied with the letter of one embassy, they will say this embassy to stop issuing it. Easier and less trouble.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

You think 20,000 Bt is two "relatively good" salaries? You do know that minimum wage is around 9000 Bt per month, right?

Min-Wage is just under 7800.  Under 10K is common in the service-industry.  I was not speaking about the "college-degree and young only need apply" jobs that pay 15K / mo.

 

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The Thais want well-heeled retirees, that's why they have set the amounts to what they are.

Again, why wouldn't they want the much greater sum of "free money" pouring into the country from a hundred 30K-Baht/mo retirees, vs the one or two 70K-Baht/mo retirees?  They are literally throwing away business - why?

 

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

I think that in the future more embassies will stop issuing them, or TI will stop accepting them. 

Agree that this appears to be the case, since anything less than embassy-personnel contacting each income-source and taking a legal-deposition would not do anything to reduce the threat of the oddball-liar, who doesn't care if he goes to prison for perjury.  My main point is - even that guy - or the thousands who fake the money with immigration-approved agents - are not doing any harm to Thailand - they are actually helping.

 

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

We'll just have to wait and see what happens in January when people who don't know about this rock up to TI for their annual extension.

Agreed.  We can hope for some official announcement from the top, but I'm not counting on it.  Best to hope for a report outlining the rules as applied at one's particular office - since they are likely to all make up their own system (as is usual).

[JohnOFphon]

As earlier poster said. "best to have a plan B, or even C if you can't satisfy TI's income requirements.

I don't have 800K in a bank here, and never will. If TI will not except me transferring over 65K per month from my US bank, to a Thai bank...by this coming FEB.,.then it's time for plan B.

I will give 30 day notice to the condo owner. He'll be out 25K per month. Cancel True Vision and my health insurance.  Tell my live-in Gf...that is 30 years younger than me...a true part time nudist/nympho...that I leaving.

I can live in Las Vegas or Reno for less than I spend here. If I stay near a VA hospital...all the better, free health care.

But....no more Thai women....or any women for that matter. That sucks....or doesn't depending on how you look at it.

[Ctkong]

On 11/8/2018 at 7:51 AM, ubonjoe said:

I am not sure that the US Embassy can do much more than they have already done or what they are still trying to do in the background now. You can be sure they have not washed their hands of the problem.

The Thai MInistry of Foreign Affairs has nothing to do with extension of stay (they are not visas) applications. Immigration sets the requirements for extensions of stay applications.

You seem to of forgotten or are not aware that it is not only those on extension of stay based upon retirement that are affected by the change. The are many that apply for extension based upon marriage to a Thai or for being the parent of a Thai who have been using a income affidavit to apply for their extensions.

Expats  have to appreciate the fact that the embassy had no way to verify the income of each and every expat without great cost. Sooner or later this loophole will be closed as it did now. So if you are an expat eligible for extension, then the onus is on you to set up a system to provide a valid document to the Thai immigration.

i am afraid many expats that moan about it are not qualified legally to have an extension of stay and had been flying under the radar all these years. They have to wise up to the fact that thai immigration is really getting serious this time to clear up the mess the  previous administrations ignored. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Ctkong

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

i am afraid many expats that moan about it are not qualified legally to have an extension of stay and had been flying under the radar all these years. They have to wise up to the fact that thai immigration is really getting serious this time to clear up the mess the  previous administrations ignored. 

Only a very small percentage of Brits "flying under the radar".

[Lovethailandelite]

22 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Where do you get this information from? All the indications that I've seen suggest that TI will continue to accept embassy letters for the foreseeable future.

 

The only problem is that 3 embassies will no longer issue the letters after their respective cut off dates.

Once again. NO Embassy can categorically 100% verify income in the way Thailand is asking. And once again, if an Embassy continues to issue the letter, it is there choice to do so. The exact same choice as Immigration has to accept or deny the letter during application process after the 1st January.

[Kurtf]

It seems to me the only people negatively affected by this new policy are those that NEED an unverified income statement to continue living here in the Kingdom. I always thought it was disgusting that we were being gouged out of $50 for them to stamp a piece of paper where we could swear our income was whatever we wanted to say without any proof whatsoever.

I’m happy those liars over the past years will have their butts kicked out. The rest can easily produce a bank book showing the amounts of monthly deposits.

[BobBKK]

I'm still a bit confused. If you have the foreign income coming into your Thai bank account averaging 65,000 per month why any need for a letter? The bank book is all you should need.

[Pattaya46]

2 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Once again. NO Embassy can categorically 100% verify income in the way Thailand is asking. //

You write your posts as if you knew more than us... So could you please enlighten us ?

Until now TI wanted a letter verifying your income. What is the "new way" they want it ?