EU proposes to send an army of observers to February election

[heybruce]

1 minute ago, Pilotman said:

I said that democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't seem to work for Thailand.  To compare the military government here to the countries you quote is preposterous.  

You posted "Democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't work here, it never has," implying that such democracy has been attempted and failed in Thailand.

 

To pretend that democracy as practiced in western countries has ever been attempted in Thailand is preposterous.  Since Franco died in the 1970's, there hasn't been a western democracy that has had to constantly worry about upsetting the military and being deposed in a coup.

[Odysseus123]

7 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

I said that democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't seem to work for Thailand.  To compare the military government here to the countries you quote is preposterous.  

Very true.

 

Utterly preposterous.

 

22 attempted (or successful) military coups later

 

Are you comfortable?

[Pilotman]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

While i might agree that democracy has a hard time working here but when you appoint people and certainly here it is almost never the qualified or talented that get to work but the connected however stupid they are.  Same way for democracy  here in Thailand.. its about connected not quality. 

I've got to say that my view of politicians of all types is that they are arrogant, self serving,  pompous, hypocritical time servers and, bar a few notable exceptions,  not very bright or talented.  The politicians fxxk up the world and then expect the boys and girls in Uniform to get them out of the holes they create. It was ever thus.  I'm  quite content to live in the Country run by Prayut and his uniformed friends.   

[SABloke]

21 hours ago, Cadbury said:

 

You are probably right with your last sentence. The Electoral Commission need to give careful judgement to this request. The EU is Thailand's third largest trade partner after China and Japan.

The EU may be unelected bullies like some others we know but they have always had an interest in freedoms and rights in Thailand. 

Perhaps if they are refused entry they might impose serious trade sanctions on Thailand. Or even if they are allowed to come and observe and don't like what they see they still might still impose sanctions.

There needs to be a considered and polite response to the EU. One person in particular needs to be kept on a leash.

The EU doesn't give a rats ass. Sanctions? Like when they imposed sanctions when the coup happened? Oh wait...

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, HalfLight said:

evolution is a hypothesis, not a fact

I think that statement tells us all we need to know.

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

I've got to say that my view of politicians of all types is that they are arrogant, self serving,  pompous, hypocritical time servers and, bar a few notable exceptions,  not very bright or talented.  The politicians fxxk up the world and then expect the boys and girls in Uniform to get them out of the holes they create. It was ever thus.  I'm  quite content to live in the Country run by Prayut and his uniformed friends.   

There we have it.  You are comfortable with corrupt military "rule" (we aren't allowed to use the correct term due to censorship) and don't care what the majority of Thais want for their country.

 

 

[Pilotman]

2 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Very true.

 

Utterly preposterous.

 

22 attempted (or successful) military coups later

 

Are you comfortable?

well I dont see people starving here, I don't see obviously staged hysterical demonstrations, or people strapped to artillery to be executed.  I dont see Thais refused passports to travel or to resettle in another country.  I dont see labour camps for families who disagree with the Military. I dont see an internal internet with no access to the outside world.  So yes, I am comfortable.  

[Odysseus123]

Just now, Pilotman said:

well I dont see people starving here, I don't see obviously staged hysterical demonstrations, or people strapped to artillery to be executed.  I dont see Thais refused passports to travel or to resettle in another country.  I dont see labour camps for families who disagree with the Military. I dont see an internal internet with no access to the outside world.  So yes, I am comfortable.  

Splendid.

[Pilotman]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

There we have it.  You are comfortable with corrupt military "rule" (we aren't allowed to use the correct term due to censorship) and don't care what the majority of Thais want for their country.

 

 

Most of the ones I meet don't give a rats ass that the Military are in charge.  Not sure where you get the idea from that the Military rule is corrupt.  Seems to me that most of the corruption  comes from civilians and the Police.  

[Pilotman]

15 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You posted "Democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't work here, it never has," implying that such democracy has been attempted and failed in Thailand.

 

To pretend that democracy as practiced in western countries has ever been attempted in Thailand is preposterous.  Since Franco died in the 1970's, there hasn't been a western democracy that has had to constantly worry about upsetting the military and being deposed in a coup.

Mores the pity. 

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Most of the ones I meet don't give a rats ass that the Military are in charge.  Not sure where you get the idea from that the Military rule is corrupt.  Seems to me that most of the corruption  comes from civilians and the Police.  

Right, all those generals got filthy rich by being frugal with their salaries.

 

We won't know who the Thai people want in charge unless we have a fair (monitored) election under a democratic constitution.  Unfortunately that isn't likely to happen.

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

well I dont see people starving here, I don't see obviously staged hysterical demonstrations, or people strapped to artillery to be executed.  I dont see Thais refused passports to travel or to resettle in another country.  I dont see labour camps for families who disagree with the Military. I dont see an internal internet with no access to the outside world.  So yes, I am comfortable.  

I don't recall people starving or sent to labor camps under Thaksin or Yingluck.  The staged hysterical demonstrations against elected government were staged by the elites and populated by the Bangkok middle class eager to preserve their privilege.  I recall using the internet without worrying about government monitors looking for censorship violations before military rule.

[heybruce]

5 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Mores the pity. 

Where do you get the crazy notion that military rule is better than democracy?  Can you name a single country that has experienced both where the majority prefer military rule?

[Brunolem]

42 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Oh,I see..

 

The rest of the world maybe kinda biased.

 

And..if only they  are requested.

 

Eat your heart out Myanmar and Cambodia.

 

Denial,Projection and Displacement.The usual stuff of tyrannies.

 

"X" is no good but "Y" will do us fine..hold on.."Y" ain't so good..

 

How about "Z" -"Z" should be pretty good..

 

Running out of letters in  the alphabet.

In this specific case, I can't imagine a good outcome, observers on site or not.

 

There are multiple articles in the new law that hampers a fair outcome in a major way.

 

Besides, the former political parties were already not flying high (remember the Chalerms?), and after years in forced hibernation, what can we expect from them?

 

At local level, I have observed many elections, with the results being always fair (no tampering) and the aftermath desastrous

 

The more things change, the more they remain the same...

[Redline]

22 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Observers from neighboring countries (Laos, Cambodia, Burma and maybe the Philippines) would do fine, being accustomed to managing fair elections...

 

Meanwhile, the pompous a...s of the Brussels Politiburo should better focus on their own problems...it's not as if they had nothing to deal with!

 

Obviously, one can imagine their strong motivation for visiting tropical Thailand in winter, at taxpayers' expense...

If they have observers from the countries you mentioned, the government would just pay them off

[overherebc]

5 hours ago, connda said:

I want them to refuse.  The fallout should be a good show.

I would let them arrange everything to fly out then just after the planes take of from EU cancel the election for two weeks or better still have the election here starting on Brexit day and see what they consider more important, Brexit/Thailands election?

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

As a practical matter:

Exports from Thailand to China decreased 14.1% year-on-year in September 2018.

Also recall: Thailand will pay heavy price for over-reliance on China (2018-11-07)

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/opinion/30358048

Furthermore,

• In 2017 the European Union agreed to resume its political contacts with Thailand including free trade agreement negotiations provided that Thailand return to democracy through a credible election.
• This agreement was necessary as Thailand had lost its Generalized System of Preferences for exports to the EU and the agreement revitalized negotiations for Thailand's previous favorable GSP rates and hopefully update Thailand's status with the EU on Thailand's full IUU fishing compliance.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/Economy/30347271

https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Thailand-scraps-new-economic-zones-and-plans-regional-linkups

 

Denying EU election observers¹ for the next election potentially puts at risk Thailand's economy in the near term from possible EU retaliation. See EU's adverse reaction to Cambodia's recent elections.

 

¹200-400 observers is not an army vs Thai Army ISOC being dispersed nationwide to assure "election peace" deserves foreign monitoring in situ. Note that in comparison tiny Haiti's Presidential Election in 2017 there were 1,505 French Citizen Observatory for the Institutionalization of Democracy (OCID) field observers in 1,203 polling stations from morning to night. https://haitiliberte.com/how-electoral-observers-evaluated-haitis-nov-20-2016-election/
 

Maybe your right.. would be nice though as i said before i doubt there will be large scale fraud.

[Odysseus123]

20 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

In this specific case, I can't imagine a good outcome, observers on site or not.

 

There are multiple articles in the new law that hampers a fair outcome in a major way.

 

Besides, the former political parties were already not flying high (remember the Chalerms?), and after years in forced hibernation, what can we expect from them?

 

At local level, I have observed many elections, with the results being always fair (no tampering) and the aftermath desastrous

 

The more things change, the more they remain the same...

True.

 

Practice does not make perfect.

 

But if you are the the 'Ugly Ducks' any form of practice is better than nothing.

 

Thank you for the intelligent conversation-it is most welcome.

 

"plus ca change..plus ca la meme chose.."..but I think that change is imperative..

[candide]

23 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Most of the ones I meet don't give a rats ass that the Military are in charge.  Not sure where you get the idea from that the Military rule is corrupt.  Seems to me that most of the corruption  comes from civilians and the Police.  

Well, as mentioned, Generals who make 50,000 a month and own hundreds of millions, or ISOC involved in human trafficking, and all cases that have been covered up by the NACC:

- The GT200

- various military equipment paid over the market price,

- Prayuth's nephew,

- the military park in hua hin (I can never spell the name)

- Prawit's watches

- Rolls Royce engines

Not to mention that it is not welcome in Thailand to raise a case  against the army....

 

Thailand is also well ranked on this subject

http://government.defenceindex.org/countries/thailand/

[Eric Loh]

33 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Most of the ones I meet don't give a rats ass that the Military are in charge.  Not sure where you get the idea from that the Military rule is corrupt.  Seems to me that most of the corruption  comes from civilians and the Police.  

Now just where do I get the idea that the Military rule is corrupt? Hmm. Maybe from the corruptions that the military ignored like the military sponsored Park where millions in bribes were alleged unaccountable or from the scandals regarding Prayut’s brother or maybe the blatant watch case which the NACC trying to help Prawit wriggle out from the mess. Or maybe from the Global Corruption Index that shot up to 96 last year from an average of 70 back during Thaksin’s tenure. 

[Aussie999]

23 hours ago, The traveler said:

EU?? EU?? The anti democratic union going to anti-democratic Thailand to watch the election, maybe the EU should clean their own backyard first and stop their tyranny. The EU are a bunch of unelected bureaucrats, one thing is good about EU is trade, their view on trade,but we don’t need a parliament, a common currency, many overpaid bureaucrats to do trade with each other.

 

Watch how they bullying Britain for leaving their union, then you understand their intentions.

 

 

let some from US,Canada,Australia or New Zealand to watch the election, those countries are actually democratic.

The problem with your view is, each EU member has it's own democratically elected government, and the people of those countries voted to be in the EU, don't you think Thais should have the same choice?

[Aussie999]

7 hours ago, YetAnother said:

what difference will observers make ? so what if they say the results are tainted (by western standards of course ), they have no authority to affect post election outcomes

Sanctions, freezing accounts/assets, voiding passports/visas etc

[HHTel]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

This is called being appointed..

Being elected means that you get your legitimacy directly from the people, the voters.

Being appointed by elected representatives doesn't make you elected...that kind of transfer doesn't exist.

 

Otherwise, we could also say that all the members of the goverment are elected, since they are appointed either by a president, a prime minister or a congress which have been elected.

 

The only elected representatives at EU level are the members of the EU parliament, which have basically no power at all!

Correct.  You'll get it eventually.

 

This thread is not about the EU.  However, when you elect someone to government, be it an MP or a lowly councilor in your home town,  You are electing that person to make decisions on your behalf.  Nothing gets done in the EU without the members having been elected by their own people.

 

 

 

 

[GarryP]

12 minutes ago, Aussie999 said:

The problem with your view is, each EU member has it's own democratically elected government, and the people of those countries voted to be in the EU, don't you think Thais should have the same choice?

Thailand is a bit too far away to become a member of the EU, but I get your drift. 

[GarryP]

36 minutes ago, candide said:

Well, as mentioned, Generals who make 50,000 a month and own hundreds of millions, or ISOC involved in human trafficking, and all cases that have been covered up by the NACC:

- The GT200

- various military equipment paid over the market price,

- Prayuth's nephew,

- the military park in hua hin (I can never spell the name)

- Prawit's watches

- Rolls Royce engines

Not to mention that it is not welcome in Thailand to raise a case  against the army....

 

Thailand is also well ranked on this subject

http://government.defenceindex.org/countries/thailand/

Bloody hell, it is worse than I thought. Alongside the likes of Sierra Leone and Rawanda. Something needs to be done to take the power away from the military. All the money saved from corruption in the army could be used on healthcare, infrastructure, etc. The more I learn about the armed forces here (particularly the army) the more I hate them. They are not here to serve the country.  

[Brunolem]

21 minutes ago, Aussie999 said:

The problem with your view is, each EU member has it's own democratically elected government, and the people of those countries voted to be in the EU, don't you think Thais should have the same choice?

Well..I don't think that the Thais should have the choice to vote for joining the EU!

 

Having said that, I also don't think that the pompous technocrats from Brussels are the best choice to monitor a Thai election.

 

We, members of TVF, know much better than them how things work here.

 

A Brussels technocrat, freshly out of the plane in his three piece suit, and sent to monitor the voting in a small school in Surin, is gonna freak out...unable to understand in the least what is going on.

 

Obviously, he will be constantly surrounded by a dozen military officers, including four women and a katoy, just in case, who wil! take him away for a six hour lunch.

 

As far as he is concerned, the "observer" will be constantly thinking about the 7 day debriefing organized in Phuket, where the "army of 400" will celebrate its achievement.

 

By the way, why 400? why not 300? sounds more heroic, no?

[Syduan]

On 11/8/2018 at 7:27 AM, The traveler said:

EU?? EU?? The anti democratic union going to anti-democratic Thailand to watch the election, maybe the EU should clean their own backyard first and stop their tyranny. The EU are a bunch of unelected bureaucrats, one thing is good about EU is trade, their view on trade,but we don’t need a parliament, a common currency, many overpaid bureaucrats to do trade with each other.

 

Watch how they bullying Britain for leaving their union, then you understand their intentions.

 

 

let some from US,Canada,Australia or New Zealand to watch the election, those countries are actually democratic.

Well said, it's a fascist dictatorship and soon they'll have control of the British armed forces. 

 

[Retiredandhappyhere]

6 hours ago, Becker said:

 

I see the Brexiteers are out in full force this morning venting their hatred for the EU even in such a innocent context as observing an election. Like the EU being allowed to send election observers could be anything but beneficial. Sad.

 

PS. Is it me or am I not alone in seeing very clear similarities between Brexiters and base Trump supporters?

Simple.  It is you!

[SupermarineS6B]

Coming to get some tips on election fixing probably....... Second referendum an all.......

[Odysseus123]

3 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

Simple.  It is you!

Nope.

 

I give him a pass on this one.

 

Brexiteers-Trumpists=Internet bores.

 

No-one gives a flying fox about sleazy Nigel or the hapless orange buffoon.

 

What sat you?

Edited November 9, 2018 by Odysseus123