Udon Thani 65,000 baht retirement extension rules

[Rawairat]

This is what I intend to do, although this year I will have to put the B800,000 in a separate account and set up a monthly transfer for next year visa renewal requirements

 

[TKDfella]

Nice OP although I don't use the ฿65,000 method. All the years that I have been going to the same office, the officers have always been polite to me. In recent years though, there have been, what I assume are, female college students on loan from the colleges for 'work experience'. It appears that they are allowed to do some preliminary arithmetic on the sums of money.

[Fred Hamblin]

Did you ask what proof they will require of the 65K baht being deposited every month. Ie a letter from your bank, or just show them your bank book. I will transfer a min 65K baht each month from my UK pensions to my Thai bank via TransferWise. I will also print a copy of the receipt for these transactions as further proof of the required income. I just hope that this will be acceptble. I am in BKK by the way. I can also provide letters from my pension providers each year confirming the increases in my pension rights for the coming year. If they wont accept the above three lots of proof from myself, then I’m stuck.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Fred Hamblin

[JTXR]

27 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

.. I recall years ago when I obtained first annual extension of "permission of stay" my condo owner gave me name of an agent (UK guy) who I inquired about. Nice fella he was going to do it all for me. The 800k etc. I did need to turn up to bkk imm but rest was all done. Think it may have been 25k for the service. I opted to do it myself "by the books" and rest is history several extensions later...

The current brouhaha about embassy letters, in my opinion, is a consequence of people not playing by the rules.  I'm convinced TI concluded that too many people were declaring income they didn't have in order to get their embassy letter.  So... that door is now closed (at least for some nationalities).

 

The next shoe to drop may be that TI concludes too many people are abusing the 800K route by using crooked agents to deposit and then withdraw money the retiree himself does not have.  What might they do?  Well, maybe they require 800K in an account all year long, or maybe pay much closer attention to what happened to the 800K from the previous year.

 

In any event, I personally don't blame the Thai government.  They want foreign retirees to have a certain level of financial resources and they have said so.  That's their right.  If large numbers of dishonest foreign retirees game the system, you can expect a crackdown.  Do the honest people then find life more inconvenient?  Yes, but the blame is on those who have been dishonestly gaming the system, not on TI.

Edited November 19, 2018 by JTXR

[HHTel]

17 hours ago, american said:

he hopes all rules regarding income for retirement extensions will become clarified sooner than later. 

Exactly.  Emphasizes the point that nobody really knows as yet. We all have to wait and see. 

[skatewash]

1 hour ago, ratcatcher said:

On a slightly different subject, if the B800,000  or B400,000 (Marriage) is imported to a Thai bank account and duly seasoned for the required period, is there any demand that says the money must stay in the account or be used for living expenses during the coming year. I am curious as to what happens if money is imported then after the extension is granted, it is repatriated to the bank of its origin. Can this be done? 

 

 

No, the account could be emptied or even closed the moment after the extension is received and there would be no negative consequences.  However, whenever money goes traveling internationally it incurs expenses (explicit fees, and implicit losses due to exchange rates).  But there's nothing in the rules that would prevent you from doing this.

 

However, most people do have living expenses on a day-to-day basis and there's no reason that extension money can't be used for those purposes outside of the seasoning period.  In fact, it's likely that that is how the money is used outside of the seasoning period.

 

One positive side-effect of the retirement extension using the seasoned money in a bank is that I tend to only bring money into Thailand one time each year (3 months prior to my retirement extension application), and therefore my losses due to transaction costs are minimal as there is really only one transaction.  Once the money is in Thailand it can be accessed via ATM debit card without any fees.  My actual living expenses are below the level anticipated by Thai Immigration's 800,000 baht minimum.

[JackThompson]

33 minutes ago, Fred Hamblin said:

Did you ask what proof they will require of the 65K baht being deposited every month. Ie a letter from your bank, or just show them your bank book. I will transfer a min 65K baht each month from my UK pensions to my Thai bank via TransferWise. I will also print a copy of the receipt for these transactions as further proof of the required income. I just hope that this will be acceptble. I am in BKK by the way. I can also provide letters from my pension providers each year confirming the increases in my pension rights for the coming year. If they wont accept the above three lots of proof from myself, then I’m stuck.

Some report transferwise does not always show the deposits as being from foreign-origin - - this varying by bank, and even from one xfer to the next. 

 

It may be better to bite-the-fee-bullet and do a wire-xfer, which will clearly be shown as foreign-sourced income.  That way, your Thai bank statement for the year, stamped/certified by the bank, will have all the evidence needed to prove both the transferred-income and its foreign-source. 

 

It's just too easy to photoshop transferwise or other non-certified statements - so fakes will quickly appear, and immigration will react, possibly preemptively.

[robertson468]

14 hours ago, BoBoTheClown said:

The rules say 65,000 baht per month. The idea is consistency of income. 

 

2 hours ago, DPKANKAN said:

Exactly. I get my private pension every 3 months. Usually I only send it over when I need it but it more than covers the minimum 65,000. Transfers cost money and timing is about exchange rates too. Perhaps have 2 bank accounts at separate banks and just drip feed 65000 in a month to satisfy the moronic way of thinking??!!

Not the IO's opinion.  Here is a cut and paste from Thai Immigration Rules:

 

- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.

[kingstonkid]

Thai immigration is going to have to sit down with these embassies that are not assisting people and figure this out.  In actuality, it is not an immigration problem.  They have set the rules the rules are simple.  The problem is that Embassies are not interested in helping people.  

 

I say again verification of funds is the most simple thing one can do at the embassy.

 

All the embassy has to do is 

a.  Ask for copies of the past 3 months or year of your bank account showing the deposits.

b.  If in doubt they have a computer terminal that the person can use in front of the Embassy official to access their bank account and show it online.

 

I am not sure that the issue is for those that are legally doing things.

 

Those that are trying to BS the system can find sympathy between sh!t and syphilis.

[JackThompson]

53 minutes ago, JTXR said:

The current brouhaha about embassy letters, in my opinion, is a consequence of people not playing by the rules.  I'm convinced TI concluded that too many people were declaring income they didn't have in order to get their embassy letter.  So... that door is now closed (at least for some nationalities).

Getting embassy-letters instead of going to agents, is my interpretation.

 

31 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Income letters/affidavits/stat decs have always been issued and accepted on good faith and based on the truthfulness of the applicant.

Guess who spoiled that by abuse.

Immigration, by accepting faked-money agent-submitted applications, and wanting to increase the number of those.

 

53 minutes ago, JTXR said:

The next shoe to drop may be that TI concludes too many people are abusing the 800K route by using crooked agents to deposit and then withdraw money the retiree himself does not have.  What might they do?  Well, maybe they require 800K in an account all year long, or maybe pay much closer attention to what happened to the 800K from the previous year.

I don't think this is likely, because immigration is Actively Waiving Seasoning for agent-submitted extensions in offices across the country - and has been processing agent-submitted apps with "special consideration" for decades.  Therefore, immigration's unofficial agent-policy is the direct-cause of the fraud involved in the process.  This is why I believe immigration created this "embassy letter problem," and has set high-minimums relative to the cost-of-living - to increase the agent-sourced revenue which is their bread-and-butter (or rice and fish-sauce), as it were.

Edited November 19, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

15 hours ago, Longcut said:

...

What difference can it possibly make what the monthly total deposit is if it averages out come next year when you reapply? It is this reasoning here that so infuriates me. 

 I know I am venting and I apologise. 

Yes - this is a bit of a hassle, but - IF This IO's interpretation applies to the future - many can still find a way to make it work.  Much better than being up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

[ubonjoe]

19 minutes ago, robertson468 said:

 

Not the IO's opinion.  Here is a cut and paste from Thai Immigration Rules:

- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.

That look more like what an embassy has on it than from an immigration website.

This from the immigration website. https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

 

 

Number 5 is for the combination of income and money in the bank.

[Tanoshi]

17 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Immigration, by accepting faked-money agent-submitted applications, and wanting to increase the number of those.

If you had an Embassy letter, you didn't need an agent.

 

Agents predominantly obtained extensions for those who couldn't provide any legitimate proof of income source, or sufficient funds deposited in a Thai bank.

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

If you had an Embassy letter, you didn't need an agent.

Exactly - which is why immigration wanted those shut-down.

 

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Agents predominantly obtained extensions for those who couldn't provide any legitimate proof of income source, or sufficient funds deposited in a Thai bank.

Agreed.  And it stands to reason that immigration saw these letters as denying them agent-money - both from those who were stating fake-incomes, and those whose incomes (quarterly, etc) may not fit into whatever system the letter-system is replaced with. 

 

Getting rid of the letters should increase agent-laundered revenue significantly - especially the first year, when people who don't read this site and similar suddenly discover what they've been doing for decades won't work, and they need a quick solution. 

[HungDonger]

Any chance that Big Joke might crack down on Visa Agents providing the 'quick-fix' option ?

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Some report transferwise does not always show the deposits as being from foreign-origin - - this varying by bank, and even from one xfer to the next. 

It is quite easy to prove that a TransferWise deposit come from abroad, even if your bank code does not indicate thus.

 

Download the T/W Transaction slip. It clearly shows every step of the transaction, from deposit to payout.

[JLCrab]

While nothing has been decided some on here ask do they mean 65K+ deposit every month. Administrative POV looking at passbook (leaving out whether non-FTT deposits will be accepted):

 

JAN 65K+ baht deposit check

FEB 65K+ baht deposit check

MAR 65K+ baht deposit check

APR 65K+ baht deposit check

ETC.

 

but some want

JAN 65K+ baht deposit check

FEB 65K+ baht deposit check

MAR no deposit

APR no deposit

MAY 195K+ deposit

 

Get out the paper tape adding machines on every desk

Edited November 19, 2018 by JLCrab

[JackThompson]

9 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

It is quite easy to prove that a TransferWise deposit come from abroad, even if your bank code does not indicate thus.

 

Download the T/W Transaction slip. It clearly shows every step of the transaction, from deposit to payout.

How hard would it be to manufacture a fake T/W Transaction slip in photoshop?  I'm not a photoshop-user, but suspect it would not be very difficult.  Absent any authority's stamp on a document, I don't think it would have much weight with immigration - in contrast to a bank-letter, showing transfers clearly marked as foreign, with the bank's stamp and bank-officer's signature.

[Tanoshi]

17 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Exactly - which is why immigration wanted those shut-down.

Nonsense Jack.

What about the many Provinces where agents don't exist.

Your a 'conspiracy theorist'. Are Immigration trying to force expats to live in Bangkok, Pattaya, Ching Mai, as well.

 

22 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Agreed.  And it stands to reason that immigration saw these letters as denying them agent-money - both from those who were stating fake-incomes, and those whose incomes (quarterly, etc) may not fit into whatever system the letter-system is replaced with. 

 

Getting rid of the letters should increase agent-laundered revenue significantly - especially the first year, when people who don't read this site and similar suddenly discover what they've been doing for decades won't work, and they need a quick solution. 

Your next conspiracy theory is what, Immigration are going to increase the financial requirements of funds in the bank, to a level only the few can meet, in order to push us into using agents, to supplement IO's salaries.

[Moonlover]

20 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

25 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

It is quite easy to prove that a TransferWise deposit come from abroad, even if your bank code does not indicate thus.

 

Download the T/W Transaction slip. It clearly shows every step of the transaction, from deposit to payout.

 

20 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

How hard would it be to manufacture a fake T/W Transaction slip in photoshop?  I'm not a photoshop-user, but suspect it would not be very difficult.  Absent any authority's stamp on a document, I don't think it would have much weight with immigration - in contrast to a bank-letter, showing transfers clearly marked as foreign, with the bank's stamp and bank-officer's signature.

Neither am I  a photoshop user so I can't answer that one. But for heavens sake, if someone is so desperate that they would have to resort to such actions, they need to start thinking 'just what am I doing here!'

Edited November 19, 2018 by Moonlover

[JackThompson]

13 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Nonsense Jack.

What about the many Provinces where agents don't exist.

Your a 'conspiracy theorist'. Are Immigration trying to force expats to live in Bangkok, Pattaya, Ching Mai, as well.

I suppose you believe in "coincidence theory"?  Look at the edu-extension crackdown - amounted to nothing but increasing under-the-table fees.  And now, this, which will undoubtedly increase agent-laundered revenue. 

 

It's not a "conspiracy" when ads are plastered all-over, offering "money-free" agent-based extensions - nor when many office's policies are clearly designed to force agent-use.  CM is rejecting TM-28s, to avoid some getting extensions at other offices, to keep that agent-money from slipping through their fingers.  Want a non-o stamp there?  have to submit over x days in advance, but, sorry, no "appointments" available in that time-window - unless you pay them off via an agent.  Jomtien will put legit family-based and non-o stamp applications through the wringer - making up one fake-rule after another - to force agent-use. 

 

13 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Your next conspiracy theory is what, Immigration are going to increase the financial requirements of funds in the bank, to a level only the few can meet, in order to push us into using agents, to supplement IO's salaries.

They have done that before.  Current minimums are far above what a single retired-person requires to live here.  I would not be surprised to see that happen again.

 

Here's the thing - if they cared that edu-folks "really" went to school, or retired-expats "really" had the required minimums, then all major immigration offices (Bangkok, Jomtien/Patts, CM, more) would not have long-standing agent-systems in place, designed to bypass exactly the restrictions they claim to care about.  

[Saltire]

For those from the UK on the income or income/combo method (fortunately I am not) I am sure something will be announced at some point to resolve the issue. However what worries me more right now is the possibility of the exchange rate being trashed again soon as Britain careers towards the Brexit precipice. I lost out big time on UK savings/property/pensions and am not discounting another round.

 

When the 'vote' was announced 2 years ago you needed around £1250 GBP per month to make the 65k Baht, today you need £1540 GBP for the same 65k.

 

Could be another reason to go for the 800k in a Thai bank if at all possible. I can't see the exchange rate improving in our favour any time soon. Just food for thought, I am aware no one has a crystal ball!

 

 

[Issanjohn]

18 hours ago, american said:

I just posted this subject  and apologize for the following errors:

1. My spellcheck function is not working.

2. Before posting this, i tried to rewrite some parts. Tht has resulted in some strange formatting  of what I wrote.

3. This is my first ever posting. I will need to get used to all of the rules for postings. i will learn in time.

 

 

 AMERICAN

exactly!!!

[JackThompson]

6 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Neither am I  a photoshop user so I can't answer that one. But for heavens sake, if someone is so desperate that they would have to resort to such actions, they need to start thinking 'just what am I doing here!'

The basis of the argument, was that people were going to the trouble of committing home-country felonies for embassy income letters.  That's a high hurdle, in my view, even if prosecution was unlikely. 

 

But more than that, it's a matter of IOs wanting to see things with official-stamps on them to use as their primary evidence.  Given their new bad-attitude on our embassy's fancy-seals, I would be more apt to think they want to see Thai seals on bank-docs, instead.

[bkk6060]

3 hours ago, DPKANKAN said:

Exactly. I get my private pension every 3 months. Usually I only send it over when I need it but it more than covers the minimum 65,000. Transfers cost money and timing is about exchange rates too. Perhaps have 2 bank accounts at separate banks and just drip feed 65000 in a month to satisfy the moronic way of thinking??!!

Either that or no Visa. Your choice it seems...

[bkk6060]

55 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

It is quite easy to prove that a TransferWise deposit come from abroad, even if your bank code does not indicate thus.

 

Download the T/W Transaction slip. It clearly shows every step of the transaction, from deposit to payout.

That is the thing many of the IO's will not understand that or other means of transfers, accounts, etc.

No way I see them sitting there going thru a bunch of paperwork that some indeed will try to manipulate to appear they qualify.

They need to designate agencies or some government sector to approve all this and yes, show up to immigration with a verification letter.

 

[jesimps]

17 hours ago, american said:

I "think/guess" immigration is trying to enforce a steady monthly income, which most people need. They don't want to see months of no deposits and then 1 sudden huge deposit. As in so many things, rules are created without always seeming to make sense or be reasonable.  I just passed on what I was told. i understand many will not like or agree with how the 65,000 baht will be calculated or resolved at Thai immigration. I'm not judging, just passing on what i was told at Thai immigration.TIT. it is up to us to follow their rules. of course, this and any other rules can change on a moments notice.

They've accepted "1 sudden huge deposit" up to now from people who plonk 800,000 in their account to start the three month seasoning before the extension application. Nobody knows until immigration put out some rule changes, but I wonder if they'll start demanding that the lump sum total comes in on a regular monthly basis. Maybe even demand evidence of it coming from abroad. I wouldn't put anything past them. I've personally made a couple of transfers from UK to build up an 800,000 lump before my three month seasoning starts next July, I can't be arsed with all this uncertainty.

Edited November 19, 2018 by jesimps

[smedly]

21 minutes ago, Saltire said:

For those from the UK on the income or income/combo method (fortunately I am not) I am sure something will be announced at some point to resolve the issue. However what worries me more right now is the possibility of the exchange rate being trashed again soon as Britain careers towards the Brexit precipice. I lost out big time on UK savings/property/pensions and am not discounting another round.

 

When the 'vote' was announced 2 years ago you needed around £1250 GBP per month to make the 65k Baht, today you need £1540 GBP for the same 65k.

 

Could be another reason to go for the 800k in a Thai bank if at all possible. I can't see the exchange rate improving in our favour any time soon. Just food for thought, I am aware no one has a crystal ball!

 

 

The Thai baht has strengthened 15% over the last 2 years against major currencies, it is not just the British at the mercy of the strong baht, US citizens might have seen a little relief as the US Dollar has strengthened recently, sterling would likely strengthen a little once all this Brexit pressure eases but don't expect it to go anywhere near 54, a more realistic price point is around 47-48  

[JLCrab]

5 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

They need to designate agencies or some government sector to approve all this and yes, show up to immigration with a verification letter.

That's a good idea and probably wouldn't take much more than 2 or 3 years to get all the procedures and qualifications and certifications and documents required in place.

[Moonlover]

20 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The basis of the argument, was that people were going to the trouble of committing home-country felonies for embassy income letters.  That's a high hurdle, in my view, even if prosecution was unlikely. 

 

But more than that, it's a matter of IOs wanting to see things with official-stamps on them to use as their primary evidence.  Given their new bad-attitude on our embassy's fancy-seals, I would be more apt to think they want to see Thai seals on bank-docs, instead.

Here we go again. Think about this one. How do you prove to the bank official that the money is coming from abroad?

 

Just how far do you want to take this?

 

Especially as there is no evidence that Thai Imm will even want proof that the money is coming from abroad.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Moonlover