Acceptance of Embassy letters of Income

[ratcatcher]

I am curious as to whether anyone has been refused an extension of stay based on the monthly income route while using an affidavit /letter from their Embassy. I know many of us are getting letters prior to years end in anticipation of Immigration accepting them up to 6 months of age.

#10. Police Order 327/2557 Section 2:18 Item 6 states either a monthly income OR a bank deposit.

Has anyone been refused the income method in the last few days and has anyone heard whether Immigration will cease to accept Income letters that are still issued by countries that are not cancelling letters on Dec 31st 2018.

 

  

[tstcman]

Would love a real world example to. I will get my letter from the US Consulate on the 6th .

[ubonjoe]

No report of anybody being denied an extension application other than at Phuket because he did not have back up proof his income coming from a government pension which is a Phuket only requirement. No changes at other offices I am aware of.

No changes for the income proof being valid for 6 months from the date they were done.

Certainly no reports of immigration not accepting the proof from an embassy after January 31st. The only mention of that has been speculation and/or rumors.

 

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post meant to deflect the topic has been removed.

[elviajero]

Immigration have not announced any change to an embassy letter being proof of income. 

 

They will still accept embassy income letters, however, there is the question remaining whether immigration will accept letters not including whatever text they now require that the others are refusing to comply with.

[Olmate]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

Immigration have not announced any change to an embassy letter being proof of income. 

 

They will still accept embassy income letters, however, there is the question remaining whether immigration will accept letters not including whatever text they now require that the others are refusing to comply with.

Yes Minister!

[Tanoshi]

My office have confirmed they will accept Income Letters up to 6 months from the date of issue, unless they receive a new  directive from Bangkok.

[stephenterry]

12 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

My office have confirmed they will accept Income Letters up to 6 months from the date of issue, unless they receive a new  directive from Bangkok.

That also seems to be the case in CM according to my visa agent. And rest (partially) assured that may not not happen until after the election. However, aim to take advantage of applying within the 45 days in advance of renewal before any possible changes are instigated. 

 

As a backstop, I would also encourage (wherever possible and as from now) that 65k is transferred in to a Thai bank account each month (which could be the whim of individual Imm offices) just in case a bank letter covering the last three months (income amounting to 195k) is also required. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by stephenterry
correction

[GSFISM]

I got the income letter from US Consulate in Chaing Mai couple months back. Presented to Amnat Charoen Imm yesterday when applied for first time retirement extension of stay. I had back-up proof in form of 1099's and bank books showing monthly transfers every month for three years. IMO accepted without question and did not request back-up proof. I did not inquire about requirements for next year. Will make enquires during second 90 day visit next year. 

[UniqueWord]

20 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

Has anyone been refused the income method in the last few days

As I have previously reported, Buriram Imm stated to me and my wife on 22 Nov that without a Letter from the BE, the income which is deposited in my Thai Bank account will not be accepted for the purpose of renewing my Extension of Stay next May.

Perhaps I should have clarified that Buriram Imm are well aware that this income comes from the US and is around 60K THB/month depending on exchange rate.  This clearly satisfies the requirement of 40K THB/month for the Marriage Extension.

They are also aware that the proof is a IRS 1042-S Tax Form which is issued every year in early March for the preceding calendar year, and the supporting BE Letter, which will not be available next year.  Plus, they are aware that this income stream has existed for more than the last decade.

Just my tuppence worth.

Cheers, UW.

[Nielsk]

To me it is the opposite way around.  At Immigration Jomtien you cannot have  1 year of extention (Retirement visa) without an income letter from Your embassy confirming the monthly  65 000 baht rule or 800 000 baht on Your Thai bankbook !!

Within the last 2 weeks week !

Edited November 27, 2018 by Nielsk

[colinchaffers]

Prachinburi Imm saying (one IO) that the proof of income is only valid for 3 months, but still valid.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Nielsk]

21 hours ago, colinchaffers said:

Prachinburi Imm saying (one IO) that the proof of income is only valid for 3 months, but still valid.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Yes if you are lucky and Your Embassy hasn't stopped doing them ????

[OJAS]

On 11/27/2018 at 1:12 PM, colinchaffers said:

Prachinburi Imm saying (one IO) that the proof of income is only valid for 3 months, but still valid.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

If they're still not complying fully with the Immigration Bureau directive issued 5 years ago regarding the acceptable maximum validity period for Embassy income confirmations, it certainly looks highly unlikely that they would be complying with any further directive which the Immigration Bureau might eventually choose to issue regarding the verification of monthly income in the absence of Embassy letters any time soon, then. So, to all intents and purposes, bank balance seasoning will, to all intents and purposes, be the only acceptable method at that particular office after next April for the indefinite future!

[Olmate]

On 11/27/2018 at 12:56 PM, Nielsk said:

To me it is the opposite way around.  At Immigration Jomtien you cannot have  1 year of extention (Retirement visa) without an income letter from Your embassy confirming the monthly  65 000 baht rule or 800 000 baht on Your Thai bankbook !!

Within the last 2 weeks week !

Unless you go to the copy shop,  where all your worries disappear! Serious crackdown?

[ratcatcher]

On Thursday November 29th, I visited the Canadian Embassy in Bangkok and at 9 am, I was the first customer. Soon after a herd of 3 others joined me in the waiting area. I requested an affidavit of income and provided them with a copy of my Canadian bank statement for the last 6 months showing deposits and withdrawals but not showing balances.  10 minutes later I entered the interview closet and swore that what I had provided was true and the notary, Joy, a really pleasant lady handed me 2 letters for Immigration and relieved me of B1400. I asked about the embassy ceasing to issue letters and the answer was " We will continue to support Canadian expats by issuing letters, with the caveat that the Immigration Dept is the one that has to clarify what they will accept and deny."

The ball very clearly is in Big Joke's court. Let's hope he can bring some sense and transparency to this whole issue. (Yes, a big hope I know)

[Klong Song]

I got this in my inbox on 28 Nov.

 

 

Democrats Abroad

 

 

Dear Americans Abroad in Thailand,

 

Happy belated Thanksgiving, I hope you all had a chance to enjoy the holiday with family and friends.

 

As a service to our members and their American friends, DA Thailand is providing a report compiled by our DAT Vice-Chair Gary Suwannarat, who recently attended a town hall organized on November 20, 2018, by the US Consulate in Chiang Mai.

 

Please note that this is provided to alert members to upcoming changes but does not constitute legal advice; questions about your particular situation and circumstances should be addressed to Thai Immigration officers or to immigration lawyers.

 

This affects those living in Thailand on retirement visas. US Consular Offices (as well as those of the UK and Australia) will no longer notarize income certifications after December 31, 2018.

 

Gary Suwannarat’s report is as follows:

 

Chiang Mai US Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and overall Thailand Consul General Timothy Scherer spoke to some 200 Americans concerned about this upcoming change in income certification procedures for Americans applying for retirement visas, or renewal of an expiring retirement visa. This impacts many of the estimated 70,000-75,000 Americans on long-term visas in Thailand, some 20,000 of whom are served by the Chiang Mai Consulate, covering the CM Consular District from Chiang Rai in the north to Pichit, Pitasanuloke and Tak in the south.

 

Scherer indicated that there is no change in Thai law. However, as part of a global review of US consular operations, it was found that US consular offices in Thailand issue an unusually high number of income affidavits. This was raised in consular dialogue with Thai authorities, who then realized that the notarized affidavit affirms only that the named citizen appeared before a US Consular officer, but does not constitute proof of income, as required by Thai law as detailed in Police Order 777/2551, which governs visa approvals. (See partial translated text below.) Similar changes are reported regarding the UK and Australia, and in the offing for citizens of other countries who have significant populations of retired persons living in Thailand.

 

The US Embassy and the Immigration Division held discussions regarding how to ease the transition to new regulations, resulting in the Thai Immigration Division extending the validity of notarized income certification for 6 months from date of notarization. Notarization obtained by December 31, 2018 will be accepted until end-June, 2019. (Note: the Consular calendar in Chiang Mai is filling up fast.)

 

Follow-up comments indicated that the Chiang Mai Immigration Office earlier this year instituted a requirement of proof of income, supporting the Consular-notarized income affidavit. (Note: My contact with Chiang Mai Immigration officials indicates that they want both the Consulate notarization and back-up documentation.) Scherer acknowledged that Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.

 

One commenter said he had asked his US bank to provide a statement which summed his variable income for the year, reported as average monthly income, which was accepted for retirement visa purposes. Scherer stressed the importance of obtaining bank documents that, like this case, indicate as clearly as possible that income meets the Thai criteria.

Scherer further indicated that Embassy officials are working with Thai Immigration officials to familiarize them with financial reporting formats of the Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs and major firms managing IRAs. The value of using standard income and retirement income reports (1099 and 1099-R) was mentioned.

 

Audience members applauded the suggestion that the Embassy work with the government to get acceptance of forms with personal identifying information not required for visa purposes redacted or blacked out as protection against identity theft.

 

The "combination" method (including both monthly income and Thai bank deposits) will still be accepted for justification of individual retirement visa extensions. For spousal visa extensions, inquire of Thai Immigration authorities or an Immigration lawyer.

 

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA. There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

 

There was concern from several expat-expat married couples who each have been maintaining individual retirement visas, where one receives less than 65,000 baht and the other more than 65,000 baht, but the total exceeded 130,000 baht. Would it be possible for the wife to obtain a dependent or "family" visa? U.S. officials were unable to answer this question about how Thai immigration will handle dependent visas going forward. Again, speak to a Thai Immigration official or immigration lawyer.

 

Thai Police Order 777/255: Unofficial translation (available online):

 

Retirement visa application requires proof of income of not less than 65,000/month OR

Thai bank account deposit of baht 800,000 at least 2 months prior to INITIALLY applying for a retirement visa; at least 3 months prior to application for retirement visa renewal OR

Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less than baht 800,000 as of the filing date for retirement visa.

Thank you to Gary for volunteering to go to the meeting and file this report to share with the DAT membership. So, to summarize, the only real advice that DAT can provide to you is the following:

 

Get the income affirmation notarized by the Embassy before year end if your visa expires before June 30, 3019. (Note that appointment slots at the consulate are filling up fast.)

Ensure others you know are also made aware of these changes.

For advice about specific cases, either talk to a Thai Immigration officer or an immigration lawyer

I hope that this is helpful to our members who have retired in Thailand on a retirement visa and will be affected by this situation.

 

With best wishes,

 

Phil Robertson

Chairperson, Democrats Abroad Thailand (DAT)

Email: [email protected]

 

Democrats Abroad Thailand

http://www.democratsabroad.org/

 

[skatewash]

2 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

On Thursday November 29th, I visited the Canadian Embassy in Bangkok and at 9 am, I was the first customer. Soon after a herd of 3 others joined me in the waiting area. I requested an affidavit of income and provided them with a copy of my Canadian bank statement for the last 6 months showing deposits and withdrawals but not showing balances.  10 minutes later I entered the interview closet and swore that what I had provided was true and the notary, Joy, a really pleasant lady handed me 2 letters for Immigration and relieved me of B1400. I asked about the embassy ceasing to issue letters and the answer was " We will continue to support Canadian expats by issuing letters, with the caveat that the Immigration Dept is the one that has to clarify what they will accept and deny."

The ball very clearly is in Big Joke's court. Let's hope he can bring some sense and transparency to this whole issue. (Yes, a big hope I know)

Would that the British, US, and Australian embassies had followed the same sensible course as the Canadians.  Unfortunately, they decided they had to act and doing so put their citizens at a disadvantage.  Sometimes it's best when you do nothing at all.

[wayned]

5 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

" We will continue to support Canadian expats by issuing letters, with the caveat that the Immigration Dept is the one that has to clarify what they will accept and deny."

That's exactly the position that all of the Embassies should have taken!, rather than tell their citizens to PISS OFF! It puts the responsibility to clarify and correct the problem, if there really is any, back on Immigration who is ultimately responsible  for it's definition and enforcement!  All Embassies should  continue to issue the income affidavits in the same format as they have in the past!

[pattayadgw]

All I can say is the lady (worked as a IO for over 10 years before) who handles my RV for me and has done so for several years has said if I collect my SD paper from Embassy / Consul in Dec I can use it for my March renewal.

[Tanoshi]

13 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

" We will continue to support Canadian expats by issuing letters, with the caveat that the Immigration Dept is the one that has to clarify what they will accept and deny."

That supports the theory I posted several weeks ago, that some Embassies will continue with the service and wait for Immigration to refuse the Income letters.

A Canadian friend of mine, who visited the CE in September, had a similar experience to that of yourself, except they told him this would be the last time he would receive the letter, as next year they expected Immigration to refuse the letters.

That suggests they know more about the situation than their telling.

[Tanoshi]

11 hours ago, skatewash said:

Would that the British, US, and Australian embassies had followed the same sensible course as the Canadians.  Unfortunately, they decided they had to act and doing so put their citizens at a disadvantage.  Sometimes it's best when you do nothing at all.

I disagree.

At least the British, US and Australian Embassies have given some notice to it's citizens of an impending change.

Look at the Denmark Embassy in contrast, who suddenly announced immediate cessation of the service on 14/11/18.

A Danish citizen due to renew their extension within the following 3 months of this date, has been left high and dry, unless they already have the necessary funds deposited in a Thai bank for the required seasoning period.

Even if they have the funds in Denmark, they haven't been given the opportunity to transfer and season the funds in time.

 

Now let's suppose, some of the Embassies are continuing to issue the letters and waiting for Immigration at some point to refuse them. Let's just say for arguments sake Immigration suddenly announced 'non acceptance' of Income letters from Feb 1st 2019.

Wouldn't the citizens of all those Embassies still continuing with the service, which is now suddenly no longer accepted, be placed in exactly the same position as the Danish expats find them selves in.

[skatewash]

32 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

I disagree.

At least the British, US and Australian Embassies have given some notice to it's citizens of an impending change.

Look at the Denmark Embassy in contrast, who suddenly announced immediate cessation of the service on 14/11/18.

A Danish citizen due to renew their extension within the following 3 months of this date, has been left high and dry, unless they already have the necessary funds deposited in a Thai bank for the required seasoning period.

Even if they have the funds in Denmark, they haven't been given the opportunity to transfer and season the funds in time.

 

Now let's suppose, some of the Embassies are continuing to issue the letters and waiting for Immigration at some point to refuse them. Let's just say for arguments sake Immigration suddenly announced 'non acceptance' of Income letters from Feb 1st 2019.

Wouldn't the citizens of all those Embassies still continuing with the service, which is now suddenly no longer accepted, be placed in exactly the same position as the Danish expats find them selves in.

You raise the issue of notification which is separate from the issue of providing the income letters.  The US Embassy could have issued the following notice:
 

Quote

Thai Immigration has indicated to American Embassy Bangkok that they have concerns that the income letter provided is not verified by us.  While the embassy is unable to verify the income letter, the embassy has decided to continue providing the income letters with the understanding that Thai Immigration can ask for backup documentation from the applicant during the application process.  Our understanding is that Thai Immigration will not consider an application using the income method without an embassy income letter and for that reason, this embassy will continue to provide such letters to our citizens so that they continue to have the opportunity to demonstrate their income to Thai Immigration.  Thai Immigration may or may not continue to accept income letters from this embassy.  That is a decision that will be made by Thai Immigration.

US Citizens are also reminded that an alternative method exists to support an extension of stay application to Thai Immigration and that is the bank method.  Thai Immigration has not informed this embassy of any verification concerns with this method.  Those US citizens who are concerned that Thai Immigration may in the future refuse to accept income letters from this embassy are advised to switch to the bank method.  Any further questions regarding this situation should be directed to Thai Immigration.

 

 

Now, I'm not a diplomat, but I've no doubt American Embassy Bangkok has access to some suitable Yale or Harvard graduate who could tart up that announcement with enough tactful language so it wouldn't offend anyone's sensibilities.  But that is, in my opinion, what needed to be said in substance.  That was the honest and honorable thing to do in the situation.

You don't disadvantage your citizens in the system as it exists.  You don't make a unilateral action (ceasing income letters) before a replacement system is in place.  The embassies reaction was simply an own-goal, completely unnecessary and in my opinion a shameful thing to do to their own citizens.  Notification of possible changes in the future can be made without simultaneously shooting yourself in the foot.  I know the US Department of State has the smartest people in the world working there (just ask them) and I really don't see why they couldn't have figured this out.  I did and I'm just citizen of more or less average intelligence.  Moreover, all the other embassies besides the British, US, and Australian embassies seem to have figured it out, too.

[wayned]

52 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

I disagree.

At least the British, US and Australian Embassies have given some notice to it's citizens of an impending change.

Look at the Denmark Embassy in contrast, who suddenly announced immediate cessation of the service on 14/11/18.

A Danish citizen due to renew their extension within the following 3 months of this date, has been left high and dry, unless they already have the necessary funds deposited in a Thai bank for the required seasoning period.

Even if they have the funds in Denmark, they haven't been given the opportunity to transfer and season the funds in time.

 

Now let's suppose, some of the Embassies are continuing to issue the letters and waiting for Immigration at some point to refuse them. Let's just say for arguments sake Immigration suddenly announced 'non acceptance' of Income letters from Feb 1st 2019.

Wouldn't the citizens of all those Embassies still continuing with the service, which is now suddenly no longer accepted, be placed in exactly the same position as the Danish expats find them selves in.

I disagree with your disagreement!  The last time that this happened was back in 2014 (I think).  It was started by three BE and that is when they, the BE, changed their system as it is today as a mail in certification that did not certify the income or, at least, have the applicant swear, under oath, in person, that the information provided was correct.  At that time the USE took the position that the Canadian Embassy now has adopted and everything blew over.  I truly believe that the BE started this mess this time and a sanctimonious new vice consul from the USE borrowed a white wig and black robe from the BE and jumped on board.   I think that if they had just took the wait ans see attitude it would have gone away.  You don't fix something that is not broken, and it wasn't broken!

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

That suggests they know more about the situation than their telling.

It confirms they knew in May as did everyone else.

[JLCrab]

While this is an interesting shoulda woulda coulda mighta oughta discussion, I would like to know what option, if any, for extension of stay via monthly 65K+ income as still in the current Police Order will be open to someone who has not secured an income letter from their respective embassy as of the DEC 31 2018 cut-off date.

[Tanoshi]

30 minutes ago, skatewash said:

You raise the issue of notification which is separate from the issue of providing the income letters.  The US Embassy could have issued the following notice:
 

 

Now, I'm not a diplomat, but I've no doubt American Embassy Bangkok has access to some suitable Yale or Harvard graduate who could tart up that announcement with enough tactful language so it wouldn't offend anyone's sensibilities.  But that is, in my opinion, what needed to be said in substance.  That was the honest and honorable thing to do in the situation.

You don't disadvantage your citizens in the system as it exists.  You don't make a unilateral action (ceasing income letters) before a replacement system is in place.  The embassies reaction was simply an own-goal, completely unnecessary and in my opinion a shameful thing to do to their own citizens.  Notification of possible changes in the future can be made without simultaneously shooting yourself in the foot.  I know the US Department of State has the smartest people in the world working there (just ask them) and I really don't see why they couldn't have figured this out.  I did and I'm just citizen of more or less average intelligence.  Moreover, all the other embassies besides the British, US, and Australian embassies seem to have figured it out, too.

Of course the British, US and Australian Embassies could have continued to issue the letters and wait for Immigration to refuse them. How would that help their citizens.

 

Immigration requested the Embassies to 'verify' it's citizens incomes, which they cannot do.

They have therefore withdrawn the service, because they do not want Immigration to misinterpret the letters as verifying income and avoid any litigation.

If other Embassies continue the letters and wait for Immigration to refuse them because the income cannot be verified, then their citizens will find themselves in the same boat as the Danish citizens. I fail to see how that helps anyone.

[evadgib]

44 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

While this is an interesting shoulda woulda coulda mighta oughta discussion, I would like to know what option, if any, for extension of stay via monthly 65K+ income as still in the current Police Order will be open to someone who has not secured an income letter from their respective embassy as of the DEC 31 2018 cut-off date.

For the sake of the cost it's worth anyone having a letter if their renewal falls before its validity expires. If, as expected, the letters are refused by Imm on grounds that aren't yet clear we (fare paying passengers) can seek refund via our home Govts complaints system*, given they suggested the above. 

"Squeeking Wheel" an' all that ????

 

(*I doubt they'll cough up but complaints will nonetheless serve their purpose)

Edited December 1, 2018 by evadgib

[UniqueWord]

To Mr. Crab (Post #26)  Just 'gotta' wait & see. 555

Cheers, UW.

[stephenterry]

25 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Of course the British, US and Australian Embassies could have continued to issue the letters and wait for Immigration to refuse them. How would that help their citizens.

 

Immigration requested the Embassies to 'verify' it's citizens incomes, which they cannot do.

They have therefore withdrawn the service, because they do not want Immigration to misinterpret the letters as verifying income and avoid any litigation.

If other Embassies continue the letters and wait for Immigration to refuse them because the income cannot be verified, then their citizens will find themselves in the same boat as the Danish citizens. I fail to see how that helps anyone.

it's not rocket science for an Embassy officer to examine e.g. a tax return completed by a registered firm of accountants showing income earned from pensions would be a verifiable source, and would meet their requirements. 

 

I am still awaiting a response from the FCO (in the UK) that actually discloses that the true reason for ceasing income letters (as revealed by a BE spokeperson at a meeting held  earlier this year) was not the verification issue per se, but that a recent FCO audit had made that recommendation to cut costs in Embassy offices overseas. I have followed this up twice and failed to get any response other than deposit 800k in a Thai bank account.