wilcopops Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 only the really dim think they can win an argument by cherry-picking single issue stats..........the only poi=nt it proves is how uniformed they personally are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krataiboy Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, 7by7 said: I see, so the answer to my question is 'Yes.' No, the answer to your question is the answer I gave you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krataiboy Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, tomacht8 said: Thx. I like to learn. Don't we all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talahtnut Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, wilcopops said: only the really dim think they can win an argument by cherry-picking single issue stats..........the only poi=nt it proves is how uniformed they personally are. The gov makes up figures for their agenda, the best lies are made with facts, we know what they want us to know. The only figure you can rely on, is how many pennies you have in your pocket at the end of the week..and that tells you the state of the UK economy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 53 minutes ago, Grouse said: A typical lead acid car battery is good for about 2kWh. A Porsche might need 300kW for, say, 3 hours. So 900kWh? 450 lead acid batteries? Several tonnes? Li-Ion bomb? No, this is where the U.K. Could real get ahead. We're already world leaders in graphene. This why, right now, they look at Maybe 100kW of power for 50km! LONG way to go! BTW to charge 450 2kWh batteries in say 2 hours would require about a 200A 3P 400V supply. About the same as 6 houses. Maybe errors there but you get the drift..... The EU could solve the problem of e-cars immediately. Simple to make a standard for the batteries. The batteries are then simply equipped with a click system so that they are compatible with any vehicle. Today's gas stations store the batterie modules and charge them. You only exchange your empty battery for a charged one. If the format and connections were consistent, the range and the loading time problems would be solved. Technically easy to implement. Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too. The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 40 minutes ago, Krataiboy said: No, the answer to your question is the answer I gave you. Which is basically what I said! Unless you are now claiming they are and always have been completely unreliable. In which case one has to wonder why you used them to support your argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, wilcopops said: only the really dim think they can win an argument by cherry-picking single issue stats..........the only poi=nt it proves is how uniformed they personally are. Those uniforms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 37 minutes ago, tomacht8 said: Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too. The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here. Can't beat the French cooked Filet Mignon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 49 minutes ago, talahtnut said: The gov makes up figures for their agenda, the best lies are made with facts, we know what they want us to know. The only figure you can rely on, is how many pennies you have in your pocket at the end of the week..and that tells you the state of the UK economy. "the best lies are made with facts". Fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post melvinmelvin Posted February 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 59 minutes ago, tomacht8 said: The EU could solve the problem of e-cars immediately. Simple to make a standard for the batteries. The batteries are then simply equipped with a click system so that they are compatible with any vehicle. Today's gas stations store the batterie modules and charge them. You only exchange your empty battery for a charged one. If the format and connections were consistent, the range and the loading time problems would be solved. Technically easy to implement. Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too. The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here. 1 what you suggest I sincerely hope will NEVER be realized what you suggest is sudden death for innovation and development mind you, electrical vehicles is a fairly new thing, what is needed now is broad scope for innovation and development of batteries - chargers - engines/motors - feedback systems do NOT put a lid on it with clickclick/anyany/vehiclevehicle give the manufactures ample space for using their brains and innovative power get out of their way / hair - let them play with that clickclick idea it would be probably be more beneficial in the long term to focus on diesel engines and improving combustion and the handling of exhaust fumes Edited February 23, 2019 by melvinmelvin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said: what you suggest I sincerely hope will NEVER be realized what you suggest is sudden death for innovation and development mind you, electrical vehicles is a fairly new thing, what is needed now is broad scope for innovation and development of batteries - chargers - engines/motors - feedback systems do NOT put a lid on it with clickclick/anyany/vehiclevehicle give the manufactures ample space for using their brains and innovative power with that clickclick idea it would be probably be more beneficial in the long term to focus on diesel engines and improving combustion and the handling of exhaust fumes I do not think so. Formula 1 also sets standards and limits. And they are quite innovative. Just as with the cell phones a standard for the charging cable. However, by giving the size to a battery box and the connection points, The developers can still develop more powerful batteries. The other components of an e car are not at all affected by an innovation restriction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, tomacht8 said: The EU could solve the problem of e-cars immediately. Simple to make a standard for the batteries. The batteries are then simply equipped with a click system so that they are compatible with any vehicle. Today's gas stations store the batterie modules and charge them. You only exchange your empty battery for a charged one. If the format and connections were consistent, the range and the loading time problems would be solved. Technically easy to implement. Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too. The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here. The Higgs Boson will get you - mass! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talahtnut Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Grouse said: The Higgs Boson will get you - mass! Mrs.Higgs Bosom has got nothing to do with it, you cant have mass without a priest. Edited February 23, 2019 by talahtnut addition 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post billd766 Posted February 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, tomacht8 said: The EU could solve the problem of e-cars immediately. Simple to make a standard for the batteries. The batteries are then simply equipped with a click system so that they are compatible with any vehicle. Today's gas stations store the batterie modules and charge them. You only exchange your empty battery for a charged one. If the format and connections were consistent, the range and the loading time problems would be solved. Technically easy to implement. Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too. The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here. The problem that I can see with this is that the batteries are about half the cost of the car, so if you change your knackered batteries for a replacement set you will make on the deal but the poor bugger who gets your old batteries will lose out. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Grouse said: The Higgs Boson will get you - mass François Englert and Peter Higgs for the theoretical development of the Higgs mechanism got the Nobel Prize for Physics 2013 I find the idea of a standardized underfloor battery box interesting. 1.50 m long x 0.80 m wide x 0.25 m high. or what size ever. I drive to the gas station when the battery is almost empty. I drive over an exchange shaft, press a Button and the empty battery box is removed. 1 minute later, the full battery box is nicked in and i can continue my e ride for some other 100 kms. The market size of the EU would make it possible to introduce such a system EU wide. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, billd766 said: The problem that I can see with this is that the batteries are about half the cost of the car, so if you change your knackered batteries for a replacement set you will make on the deal but the poor bugger who gets your old batteries will lose out. Maybe u not have to buy the batteries, you rent them from the gas stations. By mass-producing from a standard battery, the cost per battery will be going down enormous. Edited February 23, 2019 by tomacht8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 26 minutes ago, tomacht8 said: I do not think so. Formula 1 also sets standards and limits. And they are quite innovative. Just as with the cell phones a standard for the charging cable. However, by giving the size to a battery box and the connection points, The developers can still develop more powerful batteries. The other components of an e car are not at all affected by an innovation restriction. well I can just repeat that I disagree violently with this formula 1 and engine development ain't of any interest any more, the lid is there, rubber quality and aerodynamics develops cell phones do not have common chargers/cables, alas, but cell phones came on the market in the late 1980s, almost 30 years ago battery cars - new thing you clearly think you have the foresight to see how batteries will develop physically over the next 5 to x years with your click click any any system how do you fit in batteries formed like a boomerang? how do you fit in batteries formed like a 2 meter long flexible tube? how do you fit in batteries formed like a 3 inch thick disc with diameter 15 inch? how do you fit in a 3 meter long thin cone with the base in the engine compartment and the tip in the luggage compartment? it is way way too early to strangle producers of VA-cars, leave them alone and let them play 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: well I can just repeat that I disagree violently with this formula 1 and engine development ain't of any interest any more, the lid is there, rubber quality and aerodynamics develops cell phones do not have common chargers/cables, alas, but cell phones came on the market in the late 1980s, almost 30 years ago battery cars - new thing you clearly think you have the foresight to see how batteries will develop physically over the next 5 to x years with your click click any any system how do you fit in batteries formed like a boomerang? how do you fit in batteries formed like a 2 meter long flexible tube? how do you fit in batteries formed like a 3 inch thick disc with diameter 15 inch? how do you fit in a 3 meter long thin cone with the base in the engine compartment and the tip in the luggage compartment? it is way way too early to strangle producers of VA-cars, leave them alone and let them play Sorry that is wrong. 1. formula 1 is still one of the major sources of innovation for the automotive industry 2. EU consumers will be able to opt for standard mobile phone charger from 2017. The European Parliament voted in Strasbourg on a corresponding bill from. Manufacturers such as Nokia, Sony, Apple, Motorola and Samsung have within three years to bring a unified plug for mobile phones, tablets and smartphones on the market. 3 it is just an idea. You do not have to buy it. Have a nice evening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, tomacht8 said: François Englert and Peter Higgs for the theoretical development of the Higgs mechanism got the Nobel Prize for Physics 2013 I find the idea of a standardized underfloor battery box interesting. 1.50 m long x 0.80 m wide x 0.25 m high. or what size ever. I drive to the gas station when the battery is almost empty. I drive over an exchange shaft, press a Button and the empty battery box is removed. 1 minute later, the full battery box is nicked in and i can continue my e ride for some other 100 kms. The market size of the EU would make it possible to introduce such a system EU wide. Yes but consider the mass and the energy required to accelerate it? The whole idea is energy efficiency? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said: well I can just repeat that I disagree violently with this formula 1 and engine development ain't of any interest any more, the lid is there, rubber quality and aerodynamics develops cell phones do not have common chargers/cables, alas, but cell phones came on the market in the late 1980s, almost 30 years ago battery cars - new thing you clearly think you have the foresight to see how batteries will develop physically over the next 5 to x years with your click click any any system how do you fit in batteries formed like a boomerang? how do you fit in batteries formed like a 2 meter long flexible tube? how do you fit in batteries formed like a 3 inch thick disc with diameter 15 inch? how do you fit in a 3 meter long thin cone with the base in the engine compartment and the tip in the luggage compartment? it is way way too early to strangle producers of VA-cars, leave them alone and let them play Without any standard battery sizes it probably won't work that well and IF the batteries are half the price of the car how many of each type of battery size/type of battery would each charging station have to keep in stock. Think about the investment costs of perhaps 5 batteries of the most popular types may cost perhaps £30,000 and a single Porsche battery may cost that on it own. The investment in batteries alone would be horrendous and you can be sure that the customer will foot the bill one way or another. What would you charge a customer for a battery swap for a common type? £1,000, £2,000 or more for each exchange set? How about an exchange Porsche set for £10,000? Would that be a fair price? Remember that there may be up to 1 or 2,000 or more stations that will all need these batteries. How would you feel if you pulled into a station and they said "sorry mate, I just sold the last one but if you want to wait until tomorrow morning we might have one set ready if they are not all crap batteries" They may also have quick chargers that you can plug into but you can be sure that it won't be cheap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Grouse said: Yes but consider the mass and the energy required to accelerate it? The whole idea is energy efficiency? I think that the weight of a built-in battery will be about the same as the weight of a quick-change battery. I think we will not be able to solve the problem of the car makers this evening here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 25 minutes ago, tomacht8 said: Maybe u not have to buy the batteries, you rent them from the gas stations. By mass-producing from a standard battery, the cost per battery will be going down enormous. I disagree with you. For your system to work there will need to be thousands of battery stations across the country and they will all need a certain amount of batteries to operate with. The investment costs will be high as they will have to buy new batteries to start with. What happens when a guy turns up with a totally knackered set of batteries and you, as the swap station change his knackered batteries for a brand new shiny set? You will lose most of the investment in the batteries at one foul swoop. How much would you charge the guy for that swap? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 minute ago, tomacht8 said: I think that the weight of a built-in battery will be about the same as the weight of a quick-change battery. I think we will not be able to solve the problem of the car makers this evening here. I agree with both points However, existing battery materials science means that we are a very long way from replacing internal combustion engines. Fuel cells might work. But having two thirds the mass of a car taken up by batteries looks insurmountable right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, billd766 said: I disagree with you. For your system to work there will need to be thousands of battery stations across the country and they will all need a certain amount of batteries to operate with. The investment costs will be high as they will have to buy new batteries to start with. What happens when a guy turns up with a totally knackered set of batteries and you, as the swap station change his knackered batteries for a brand new shiny set? You will lose most of the investment in the batteries at one foul swoop. How much would you charge the guy for that swap? In fact, there are still a lot of unresolved problems. A friend of mine works at the Shell Research Laboratory in Hamburg. There they deal with such future issues. But I like the idea. Let's see what solutions will prevail in the market. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, tomacht8 said: I think that the weight of a built-in battery will be about the same as the weight of a quick-change battery. I think we will not be able to solve the problem of the car makers this evening here. I agree with both points However, existing battery materials science means that we are a very long way from replacing internal combustion engines. Fuel cells might work. But having two thirds the mass of a car taken up by batteries looks insurmountable right now. Specific energy (capacity) Compared to fossil fuel, the energy storage capability of the battery is less impressive. The energy by mass of gasoline is over 12,000Wh/kg. In contrast, a modern Li-ion battery only carries about 200Wh/kg; however the battery has the advantage of delivering energy more effectively than a thermal engine. (See BU-1007: Net Calorific Value.) Lets take a typical 100kW car running for one hour. That's about 8.5kg of fuel at 25% efficiency = 34kg. Battery equivalent is 500kg of batteries! Does not compute.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) One useful piece of empirical data from student days... Female students invariable had U2 batteries on the radiator in their college rooms. Smaller girls had U11 batteries. Is there a PhD in this for me? Edited February 23, 2019 by Grouse 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Grouse said: I agree with both points However, existing battery materials science means that we are a very long way from replacing internal combustion engines. Fuel cells might work. But having two thirds the mass of a car taken up by batteries looks insurmountable right now. Specific energy (capacity) Compared to fossil fuel, the energy storage capability of the battery is less impressive. The energy by mass of gasoline is over 12,000Wh/kg. In contrast, a modern Li-ion battery only carries about 200Wh/kg; however the battery has the advantage of delivering energy more effectively than a thermal engine. (See BU-1007: Net Calorific Value.) Lets take a typical 100kW car running for one hour. That's about 8.5kg of fuel at 25% efficiency = 34kg. Battery equivalent is 500kg of batteries! Does not compute.... This are the weights from the batteries BMW i3 60 Ah 233 Kg 94 Ah 256 Kg 120 Ah 274 Kg BMW indicates the maximum range with 260km with the largest battery. Battery charge time is 45 minutes for 80% power. As a city car to the way to / from work already very good. However, you should have your own garage for loading. The 120 i3 is indicated with 1345 kilos total weight. Battery weight is then 20,37% of the total vehicle weight Edited February 23, 2019 by tomacht8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talahtnut Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Grouse said: I agree with both points However, existing battery materials science means that we are a very long way from replacing internal combustion engines. Fuel cells might work. But having two thirds the mass of a car taken up by batteries looks insurmountable right now. Specific energy (capacity) Compared to fossil fuel, the energy storage capability of the battery is less impressive. The energy by mass of gasoline is over 12,000Wh/kg. In contrast, a modern Li-ion battery only carries about 200Wh/kg; however the battery has the advantage of delivering energy more effectively than a thermal engine. (See BU-1007: Net Calorific Value.) Lets take a typical 100kW car running for one hour. That's about 8.5kg of fuel at 25% efficiency = 34kg. Battery equivalent is 500kg of batteries! Does not compute.... Fuel cells and micro cars are the future. My daily driver in the UK is 601 cc, to be fitted with a home made Pogue carburettor when get it right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tomacht8 Posted February 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, Grouse said: One useful piece of empirical data from student days... Female students invariable had U2 batteries on the radiator in their college rooms. Smaller girls had U11 batteries. Is there a PhD in this for me? Any photos of the girls available? Maybe the question could then be answered. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Krataiboy Posted February 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, 7by7 said: Which is basically what I said! Unless you are now claiming they are and always have been completely unreliable. In which case one has to wonder why you used them to support your argument! I could easily have sourced material from numerous pro-Brexit sources. But my discovery of two lefty, progressive rags had banged the Brexit drum so enthusiastically following the shock referendum result was simply too mouth-watering not to share. Of course, they have since seen the folly of their ways and shuffled back shamefaced into the Remainer ranks. But their brief flirtation with edotorial objectivity was fun while it lasted. Just another indication of the unreliability of the mass media, from which - let's face it - we all cherry-pick sometimes to support our arguments. If interpreting this as a "Yes" to your question will help you sleep tonight, then be my guest! Edited February 23, 2019 by Krataiboy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts