UK's Labour to propose amendment aimed at avoiding no-deal Brexit

[Nigel Garvie]

 

 

Hilarious. States that he cannot be bothered to do any research (I don't have the detailed statistics to hand...), then makes something up (my impression is.....) But the absolute hoot is he uses a Stephen Fry video to support his non-research. This is a hoot on three counts. Number one is he assumed that because the Fry video had the word fear in it, it was pro-Leave. Number two is that he clearly didn't bother to watch the video. Number three, and this is the coup de grace, the Stephen Fry video systematically goes through the Leavers claims and knocks them down. That fear reference? Stephen Fry at pains to criticise the Leavers emphasis on an anti-immigrant fear platform........ Did I ever make reference to Hard Brexiteers being intellectually lazy? Well!

Oh dear, oh dear, SheungWan, you really got the wrong end of the stick this time. As Dick D. notes, I am a remainer. In fact I think leaving the EU is one of the most stupid things Britain has ever done since Gallipoli, and the equally bone headed charge of the light brigade. However I am anti-Brexit rather than anti-Brexiteer, I believe they were sold a bundle of lies, and I think the video highlights this. This is completely unrelated to my separate post about pensions. I answered another posters question politely, and as fully as I could at the time, since I was going out. You may describe it as "He cannot be bothered to do any research", if you wish. This was a pensions issue only peripherally related to Brexit, although it could make all our pensions worth less, as many retired Falangs are sadly discovering already with the falling pound.

[dick dasterdly]

With a bit of luck, Sheung Wan is feeling extremely stupid and embarrassed right now! ????

 

To quote from his post - "Did I ever make reference to Hard Brexiteers being intellectually lazy? Well!"

 

As it turns out HE is the one that is "intellectually lazy"!

[SheungWan]

50 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You posted (and for no reason) insulted Nigel Garvie's posts as a 'stupid brexiteer'.

Another one making things up. Brexiteers may or may not be stupid, but my criticism was that of being intellectually lazy and the above invention more of the same. 

[SheungWan]

51 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Oh dear, oh dear, SheungWan, you really got the wrong end of the stick this time. As Dick D. notes, I am a remainer. In fact I think leaving the EU is one of the most stupid things Britain has ever done since Gallipoli, and the equally bone headed charge of the light brigade. However I am anti-Brexit rather than anti-Brexiteer, I believe they were sold a bundle of lies, and I think the video highlights this. This is completely unrelated to my separate post about pensions. I answered another posters question politely, and as fully as I could at the time, since I was going out. You may describe it as "He cannot be bothered to do any research", if you wish. This was a pensions issue only peripherally related to Brexit, although it could make all our pensions worth less, as many retired Falangs are sadly discovering already with the falling pound.

I will go with what is written rather than how contributors wish to describe themselves.

[dick dasterdly]

12 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Hilarious. States that he cannot be bothered to do any research (I don't have the detailed statistics to hand...), then makes something up (my impression is.....) But the absolute hoot is he uses a Stephen Fry video to support his non-research. This is a hoot on three counts. Number one is he assumed that because the Fry video had the word fear in it, it was pro-Leave. Number two is that he clearly didn't bother to watch the video. Number three, and this is the coup de grace, the Stephen Fry video systematically goes through the Leavers claims and knocks them down. That fear reference? Stephen Fry at pains to criticise the Leavers emphasis on an anti-immigrant fear platform........ Did I ever make reference to Hard Brexiteers being intellectually lazy? Well!

 

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Ummm, I think you'll find that the poster is a remainer.....

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

You posted (and for no reason) insulted Nigel Garvie's posts as a 'stupid brexiteer'.

 

Edit - and (IIRC) his comment that you quote was in reference to state pensions - not about the eu!

 

Again, I would point out that I'm pretty sure that Nigel Garvie is a remainer (albeit one that (unlike yourself) doesn't jump to conclusions, looking for any excuse to insult those with a different opinion....), and posted the Stephen Fry video as it supported the remainer cause!

 

57 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Oh dear, oh dear, SheungWan, you really got the wrong end of the stick this time. As Dick D. notes, I am a remainer. In fact I think leaving the EU is one of the most stupid things Britain has ever done since Gallipoli, and the equally bone headed charge of the light brigade. However I am anti-Brexit rather than anti-Brexiteer, I believe they were sold a bundle of lies, and I think the video highlights this. This is completely unrelated to my separate post about pensions. I answered another posters question politely, and as fully as I could at the time, since I was going out. You may describe it as "He cannot be bothered to do any research", if you wish. This was a pensions issue only peripherally related to Brexit, although it could make all our pensions worth less, as many retired Falangs are sadly discovering already with the falling pound.

 

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Another one making things up. Brexiteers may or may not be stupid, but my criticism was that of being intellectually lazy and the above invention more of the same. 

Wow!  You really are incapable of admitting that you made a very bad mistake ????!

 

Re-read your original post (quoted above) and then take into consideration that the poster is a remainer....  Then try to understand that the poster was talking about state pensions, not the eu.

 

Do you finally see how you jumped to (incorrect) conclusions in your haste to insult brexiteers?!

Edited December 4, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Wow!  You really are incapable of admitting that you made a very bad mistake ????!

Re-read your original post (quoted above) and then take into consideration that the poster is a remainer....  Then try to understand that the poster was talking about state pensions, not the eu.

Do you finally see how you jumped to (incorrect) conclusions in your haste to insult brexiteers?!

For the very slow I will re-iterate that I go on what people write before I assign any importance to their own self-description. This is not a football match with support conditional on the colour of shirt worn. If something daft or contradictory is written by a pro-Remainer (and there is plenty) I will criticise irrespective of their self-label. And that even goes for some contributors who pretend to sit on the fence and only reluctantly choose the Hard Brexit camp. Know anyone?

[SheungWan]

Well, the recommendation I am going to suggest to Theresa May is that the Labour Party amendment should be taken sequentially with amendments representing all the distinct positions including the Hard Brexit position. Wait until all of them are defeated and then put up Theresa May's substantive motion. Last man standing.

[3NUMBAS]

labour wants plenty of migrants to replace their dwindling support as they wont win an outright election it will be another stalemate..so they need more dumb migrants who have no job skills or half a brain just like diane abbot .the old labour voters are now middle class and wont vote for em

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

labour wants plenty of migrants to replace their dwindling support as they wont win an outright election it will be another stalemate..so they need more dumb migrants who have no job skills or half a brain just like diane abbot .the old labour voters are now middle class and wont vote for em 

 

if what you say above

 

the old labour voters are now middle class and wont vote for em

 

is close to reality, UK is in for some very very serious problems in years to come

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

labour wants plenty of migrants to replace their dwindling support as they wont win an outright election it will be another stalemate..so they need more dumb migrants who have no job skills or half a brain just like diane abbot .the old labour voters are now middle class and wont vote for em

Diane Abbott's half a brain still tops the above contributor's weigh-in.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SheungWan

[stephenterry]

The first blow for May has been struck as parliament voted in favour of contempt against the government (311-293) for not releasing the full legal advice regarding Brexit. I can see that now parliament has flexed its muscles, and had a large majority - May will be more likely to have her withdrawal deal voted against her.

 

And there is a new player in the game - ECJ legal advice that UK's Article 50 could be withdrawn (within the two year period) if the government requests it - and I have no doubt parliament would ensure that is an option (over no deal) should May's deal be voted down.

 

Interesting times ahead, with a 25% sterling devaluation on the cards...

Edited December 5, 2018 by stephenterry
addition to text.

[Nigel Garvie]

14 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

labour wants plenty of migrants to replace their dwindling support as they wont win an outright election it will be another stalemate..so they need more dumb migrants who have no job skills or half a brain just like diane abbot .the old labour voters are now middle class and wont vote for em

Ref above and this from MM (Multi quotes don't seem to work for me - probably doing some thing stupid).

"if what you say above

the old labour voters are now middle class and wont vote for em 

is close to reality, UK is in for some very very serious problems in years to come."

 

I try to avoid using the word class, as I would try to avoid walking into a minefield. The sociologists use of categories like "A2"  and "C3" at least reflect income. The old "Working class" beloved of Corbyn & Co is disappearing. The number employed in manufacturing on the factory floor etc is a tiny proportion of the working population. The majority are probably working in offices or shops. They say people get more conservative as they get older. The "Working class" have quite deliberately been targeted by the Tory gutter press, and it is probably fair to say that there are more of them, the older ones anyway, that have deserted the LP than ever before. The UK may very well be in for "some very very serious problems in years to come". However the issue is so complex that "Heaven knows" what will happen next. Changing times in all sorts of ways, and quite unsettling for many.

[melvinmelvin]

Hard  to understand TM,

 

at the start of this week, it was reasonably clear that her deal was hanging in a thin thread re flying in parliament

 

and then she goes about trying to fool parliament and holding back on info

 

seems like she is putting effort into losing the vote

 

This is at least the 3rd time she tries to bypass parliament,

not a wise move

 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Hard  to understand TM,

 

at the start of this week, it was reasonably clear that her deal was hanging in a thin thread re flying in parliament

 

and then she goes about trying to fool parliament and holding back on info

 

seems like she is putting effort into losing the vote

 

This is at least the 3rd time she tries to bypass parliament,

not a wise move

 

I don't think she has a ulterior motive, she just won't listen to any of her generals, mother knows best. 

[melvinmelvin]

12 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Ref above and this from MM (Multi quotes don't seem to work for me - probably doing some thing stupid).

"if what you say above

the old labour voters are now middle class and wont vote for em 

is close to reality, UK is in for some very very serious problems in years to come."

 

I try to avoid using the word class, as I would try to avoid walking into a minefield. The sociologists use of categories like "A2"  and "C3" at least reflect income. The old "Working class" beloved of Corbyn & Co is disappearing. The number employed in manufacturing on the factory floor etc is a tiny proportion of the working population. The majority are probably working in offices or shops. They say people get more conservative as they get older. The "Working class" have quite deliberately been targeted by the Tory gutter press, and it is probably fair to say that there are more of them, the older ones anyway, that have deserted the LP than ever before. The UK may very well be in for "some very very serious problems in years to come". However the issue is so complex that "Heaven knows" what will happen next. Changing times in all sorts of ways, and quite unsettling for many.

 

solid Tory majority for the foreseeable future?

 

[Henryford]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

The first blow for May has been struck as parliament voted in favour of contempt against the government (311-293) for not releasing the full legal advice regarding Brexit. I can see that now parliament has flexed its muscles, and had a large majority - May will be more likely to have her withdrawal deal voted against her.

 

And there is a new player in the game - ECJ legal advice that UK's Article 50 could be withdrawn (within the two year period) if the government requests it - and I have no doubt parliament would ensure that is an option (over no deal) should May's deal be voted down.

 

Interesting times ahead, with a 25% sterling devaluation on the cards...

I think the way ahead is clear now. Treason May's deal will be rejected on the 11th. Parliament will vote to revoke Article 50. We are back in the EUSSR from 1.1.19. The Pound rises by 25%.

[melvinmelvin]

Could someone enlighten me re Labour thinking, please

 

It is clear Labour does not like TM

It is clear they do not like the deal

It is clear they do not want no-deal-Brexit

 

Now they say,

if deal gets shot down next week we will move a non-conf motion re PM

(implies that if it flies they will not move)

 

this doesn't make sense to me,

could understand a motion of non-conf today

but why wait and see if the deal flies?

 

 

[AGareth2]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

I think the way ahead is clear now. Treason May's deal will be rejected on the 11th. Parliament will vote to revoke Article 50. We are back in the EUSSR from 1.1.19. The Pound rises by 25%.

sadly I had to transfer money today

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Ref above and this from MM (Multi quotes don't seem to work for me - probably doing some thing stupid).

"if what you say above

the old labour voters are now middle class and wont vote for em 

is close to reality, UK is in for some very very serious problems in years to come."

I try to avoid using the word class, as I would try to avoid walking into a minefield. The sociologists use of categories like "A2"  and "C3" at least reflect income. The old "Working class" beloved of Corbyn & Co is disappearing. The number employed in manufacturing on the factory floor etc is a tiny proportion of the working population. The majority are probably working in offices or shops. They say people get more conservative as they get older. The "Working class" have quite deliberately been targeted by the Tory gutter press, and it is probably fair to say that there are more of them, the older ones anyway, that have deserted the LP than ever before. The UK may very well be in for "some very very serious problems in years to come". However the issue is so complex that "Heaven knows" what will happen next. Changing times in all sorts of ways, and quite unsettling for many.

The working class manufacturing base of the Labour Party may be declining but where it still exists, it is by definition, collectively important as it will/may dominate a defined geographical area. Factories. In Brexit terms, one only has to consider the Sunderland factor. There are others. Enough of them deserted the Labour Party in 2016 and then returned for the GE to make a difference. Offices? Less so in the private sector with the onward march of IT. Shops? Less so also, plus poor unionization. LP strength more substantial in the public sector, where for some money grows on trees. Minefields? Always have been Just different fields.

[SheungWan]

30 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Could someone enlighten me re Labour thinking, please

It is clear Labour does not like TM

It is clear they do not like the deal

It is clear they do not want no-deal-Brexit

Now they say,

if deal gets shot down next week we will move a non-conf motion re PM

(implies that if it flies they will not move)

this doesn't make sense to me,

could understand a motion of non-conf today

but why wait and see if the deal flies?

If the LP put forward a motion of No Confidence today before the Government has presented a Brexit deal for approval, then the risk of not passing would strengthen the Government's hand.

Edited December 5, 2018 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

10 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

sadly I had to transfer money today

I am assuming you are transferring money from GBP to THB. If GBPTHB further declines significantly then you will not be sad, you will be happy with your foresight and wisdom. A true Master of the Universe.

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

If the LP put forward a motion of No Confidence today before the Government has presented a Brexit deal for approval, then the risk of not passing would strengthen the Government's hand.

hmmm, if you say so ...

 

if I understand you correctly, you think that a failed non-conf motion between now and Tuesday

will actually affect the way MPs vote re the deal?

 

(one should never say never in politics, but I find this somewhat hard to buy)

 

 

[AGareth2]

40 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I am assuming you are transferring money from GBP to THB. If GBPTHB further declines significantly then you will not be sad, you will be happy with your foresight and wisdom. A true Master of the Universe.

just think it will get worse

Dec 11 will be devastating

[SheungWan]

31 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

hmmm, if you say so ...

if I understand you correctly, you think that a failed non-conf motion between now and Tuesday

will actually affect the way MPs vote re the deal?

(one should never say never in politics, but I find this somewhat hard to buy)

Yes. 

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

just think it will get worse

Dec 11 will be devastating

Then you can buy back your pounds at a profit if you have spare cash.