We have no committee anymore but management does not care.

[Chris Po]

Hello, 

i live in a Condo in Jomtien, i bought 18 month ago . 

Last December we had the first general meeting and elected a committee , 5 owners. 

Because of the problem with the management we got , step by step all committee members resigned. 

They even post in a Facebook "Owners- Group" that there is no committee anymore. 

So i asked via e- mail the manager to make an extraordinare owners meeting, to elect new committee members. 

The manager wrote me back, that we have still a committee of 3 persons. 

One of the "ex-members" went to the Jomtien land office and asked if he is still on the list and yes, there are 3 members who resigned at the list. 

Today i was in office and asked them why resigned members are still on an official list. 

The manager answered that we will have the AGM end of March or April, and the Land Office says this is ok. 

I dont believe this. 

Since we have no committee anymore taking care of the problems it gets more and more a pig stable. 

Any advice how to go on ? 

Thank you in advance

Chris

[scorecard]

By the law it's not up to the office manager to decide 'we will have an AGM in March.....

If there's an outside management company employed to 'manage the building' then again it's up to the owners.

 

In my old condo in Bkk there was an outside company who tried to insist they must make all decisions about everything.

 

A group of owners got together (include a senior cop who had recently bought a unit) and put up notices everywhere about an extraordinary AGM, the paid outside management company said they would call the police. The senior cop owner said 'go right ahead', and he guided the mass of owners through the right process to conduct the extraordinary AGM.

 

First item at the meeting, elect a new owners committee. Outside company staff tried to insist it's their job to decide which owners make up the committee, senior cop said 'not true' and told them to be quiet.

 

An hour later a new committee in place. One of the owners stood up and said he wanted a discussion about the outside management company. After maybe 2 hours one of the new committee said 'I propose we take a vote, but first can we have any suggestions of a proposal of whether the outside company should continue'.

 

Ultimately a vote, decision was management company sacked on the spot. Another new committee member (a licensed accountant and auditor) asked for all the records to be handed over immediately. Outside company tried to object, the big cop said to the outside company folks 'sit down and don't move'. Then he asked for 4 owners to volunteer go to the office and remove all documentation and equipment to another room which could be locked.

 

Then the big cop said 'now step 2', and he told the outside people they had 10 minutes to gather their personal belongings under the monitoring of the same 4 owners. Now big cop said 'leave the building and never return here'. 

 

After maybe another 7 days the new committee had hired a new manager and 3 office staff, they all had to sign documents that they understood their role and understood the limits of their authority (basically no authority).

 

From there the whole situation became much smoother and a long list of problems quickly resolved. 

 

Also, Is there a juristic person nominated and agreed by the owners at an owners meeting, and recorded with the appropriate authorities? 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by scorecard

[Peterw42]

OP, I dont think this is anything to worry about as the committee doesn't run the block, the juristic person/office/manager runs the block, the office collects the fees, pays the wages, gets the lift repaired if it breaks etc. The committee supervises the office. The block should be able to run without a committee until the scheduled AGM.

The committee in my block meets a couple of times a year to check finances, quotes, progress, instruct to get quotes, authorise major expenditure etc, the rest of the year the office is running the block

An EGM can cost money, postage, printing, hire tables chairs PA system etc.

Its not a strict requirement to race off and advise the land office every-time a committee member resigns and wont make any difference to the running of the block , even if they are still on the land office list. Most blocks would report details to the land office once a year just after the AGM.

 

The committee doesnt have much to do with the day to day running of the block, so long as its business as usual with no great spending of funds etc, the block should be able to operate at least until the AGM. You can live in a block where the committee all live in Bangkok or outside thailand and meet 1-2 times a year.

[zappalot]

28 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, I dont think this is anything to worry about as the committee doesn't run the block, the juristic person/office/manager runs the block, the office collects the fees, pays the wages, gets the lift repaired if it breaks etc.

 

As the OP stated quote "it gets more and more a pig stable." the juristic person/office/manager does NOT run the block, at least not as they should.

 

We have a very bad management but unfortunately also a very bad committee. So I completely understand the OP.  In our case they even clearly violated the condominium act rules. Problem was that a complaint to the land department with proof of violation of the law did not help. Basically their explanation was that if just one co-owner is complaining the problem cannot be that big.

 

You need to find other co-owners supporting you with a complaint at the land department. Can be difficult - Thais do not complain even if they get cheated - at least in our building the Thai co-owners do not care so much...

Edited December 3, 2018 by zappalot

[KittenKong]

8 hours ago, Chris Po said:

i live in a Condo in Jomtien, i bought 18 month ago . 

Last December we had the first general meeting and elected a committee , 5 owners. 

Because of the problem with the management we got , step by step all committee members resigned. 

That first meeting should, in theory, have been held earlier.

 

8 hours ago, Chris Po said:

One of the "ex-members" went to the Jomtien land office and asked if he is still on the list and yes, there are 3 members who resigned at the list. 

Today i was in office and asked them why resigned members are still on an official list. 

The manager answered that we will have the AGM end of March or April, and the Land Office says this is ok. 

A committee is legal as long as it still has at least 3 members. Resignations are only valid when submitted in writing, and technically the person resigning is still a registered committee member until replaced at an AGM/EGM.

 

If the number of committee members falls below 3, for any reason, then the Juristic Person Manager must call an EGM immediately. This is the law. I dont quite understand why your management are keen to delay this until April or March, but I suppose they have a reason and I doubt that it is anything favourable to you.
Who said that the Land Office said that was OK? Your management? If so they are probably lying. It is unwise to trust anything that any Thai management company says.

 

If you can raise written support from 20% of co-owners in the form of a petition then you can force the Jurisitic Person Manager to hold an EGM now. Always assuming that your JPM is honest and does his job properly, which apparently is not the case in your building. If the JPM does not obey the condo act, any co-owner can complain in writing to the Land Office. But such complaints are handled very slowly and mostly involve the Land Office sending out letters. So by the time they have done anything it may be April anyway.

 

If you are really motivated then 20% of co-owners can arrange their own meeting, bypassing the JPM and management. But depending on the size of your building that may not be easy.

 

I wonder do you know who your Juristic Person Manager is? This is NOT necessarily the building manager, though it is quite common (though undesirable) for the JPM to be a representative of your management company.
The JPM is the person responsible for calling elections and ensuring that the condo obeys the law. And so he is the person you need to be dealing with.

 

If your management company is not doing its job properly then the committee can sack them. You dont have to wait for an AGM/EGM. But that has to done through the JPM, which may be tricky if the JPM is part of the management company.

 

When you do next have a proper meeting I suggest that you pay great attention to selecting a good JPM: perhaps a concerned and honest co-owner (who must be either Thai or be allowed to work in Thailand).

 

 

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, I dont think this is anything to worry about as the committee doesn't run the block, the juristic person/office/manager runs the block, the office collects the fees, pays the wages, gets the lift repaired if it breaks etc. The committee supervises the office. The block should be able to run without a committee until the scheduled AGM.

The committee in my block meets a couple of times a year to check finances, quotes, progress, instruct to get quotes, authorise major expenditure etc, the rest of the year the office is running the block

I would not be happy about a committee that was so lax. In my opinion a committee needs to meet monthly and to check absolutely everything. Failure to do so simply results in massive theft and fraud.

 

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

You can live in a block where the committee all live in Bangkok or outside thailand and meet 1-2 times a year.

The legal minimum is every 6 months.

[KittenKong]

40 minutes ago, zappalot said:

We have a very bad management but unfortunately also a very bad committee. So I completely understand the OP.  In our case they even clearly violated the condominium act rules. Problem was that a complaint to the land department with proof of violation of the law did not help. Basically their explanation was that if just one co-owner is complaining the problem cannot be that big.

Yes, the Land Office will often go out of its way to minimise or play down complaints. They are not on the side of co-owners.

[KittenKong]

7 hours ago, scorecard said:

A group of owners got together (include a senior cop who had recently bought a unit) and put up notices everywhere about an extraordinary AGM, the paid outside management company said they would call the police. The senior cop owner said 'go right ahead', and he guided the mass of owners through the right process to conduct the extraordinary AGM.

I can see why this person did this, and I can see that in many buildings a strong-arm approach like that is needed, but technically what he did was not legal. Still, it sounds like a case of the end justifying the means so well done for getting rid of your bad management.

[AlQaholic]

The Committee members that are still registered at the land office, is still legally the Committee. That means these persons are responsible for anything that is going on at your condo. They are responsible for ensuring that the manager is doing his/her job correctly. Please read the last few pages in the condominium act, there you will find a long list of penalties, including jail time, for not carrying out the duties of a committee member. 

Clearly, the people who volunteered as committee members were not up to the task.

[Peterw42]

40 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I would not be happy about a committee that was so lax. In my opinion a committee needs to meet monthly and to check absolutely everything. Failure to do so simply results in massive theft and fraud.

 

The legal minimum is every 6 months.

Yes, I would agree, I was trying to point out to the OP that the committee doesn't run the block as such, more checks and balances on the office, who run the block.

[Peterw42]

54 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I can see why this person did this, and I can see that in many buildings a strong-arm approach like that is needed, but technically what he did was not legal. Still, it sounds like a case of the end justifying the means so well done for getting rid of your bad management.

I thought the same, lots of specific requirements to call/have an EGM, a certain quorum required to sack committee and juristic etc.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, I would agree, I was trying to point out to the OP that the committee doesn't run the block as such, more checks and balances on the office, who run the block.

Yes, if management are any good then the committee wont have a lot to worry about. But some management companies I have known are far from good and need to be told to do every little thing. If not told they simply dont do it. A lot of inexperienced committee members dont realise this and are surprised when things dont run themselves.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, AlQaholic said:

Please read the last few pages in the condominium act, there you will find a long list of penalties, including jail time, for not carrying out the duties of a committee member. 

Actually those last sections of the Condo Act dont have many penalties that are applicable to the chairman, and none that are applicable to regular committee members (except in as much as they are also co-owners).

 

The chairman can be fined a small sum for not calling a committee meeting every 6 months, or for failing to call one when requested to by 2 or more other committee members. There is no jail penalty for that though. All the other penalties (except those relating to all co-owners) seem to be down to the JPM and/or management only.

 

Of course there may be some civil liability for committee members who are negligent, and any sort of theft or fraud on their part would be a crime, but that isnt part of the Condo Act.

[anfh]

It is not up to your office to call AGM, this is done by committee.

 

i doubt your original committee arrange an AGM so far in advance, therefore the management have done (are doing ) this.

 

technically, the resigned committee is still in force up to the AGM, since this is so, those three resigned members have the right to call or set AGM an/ Or EGM.

 

i would be be very wary of your management right now, since, if you wait until April, they have a long time left to fritter funds away to their own ends, ( which, whilst I’m not suggesting they are, it is a distict possibility ) 

 

I would be seriously getting together with the three resigned members and try and get them to act. I believe new members can immediately volunteer and can be voted onto committee by existing members before an AGM.  This may be an option if you have other owners interested in this. 

[KittenKong]

6 minutes ago, anfh said:

It is not up to your office to call AGM, this is done by committee.

 

i doubt your original committee arrange an AGM so far in advance, therefore the management have done (are doing ) this.

An AGM is an annual event that must happen within 120 days of the end of the building's financial year. It doesnt matter much who calls it as it has to happen in order for the accounts to be presented, and in practice the JPM will arrange it once the accounts are ready to be presented.

 

All other general meetings are EGMs (extraordinary general meetings) and may be called by the JPM, a majority of the committee (not just the chairman), or at least 20% of the total co-ownership.

 

8 minutes ago, anfh said:

I believe new members can immediately volunteer and can be voted onto committee by existing members before an AGM.

No. Committee members can only be appointed or removed by a majority vote at a GM, allowing for the relevant quorum numbers as defined in the Condo Act (which has priority) or in the building regs. Members also cease to be members immediately when dead or when becoming:

(1) A minor, an incompetent or quasi-incompetent person,
(2) Used to be relieved from the position of a member by the Joint Owner General Meeting or removed from being a manager because of corruption or his conduct is detrimental or defective on morality.
(3)  Used to be dismissed, removed or discharged from a government service, government or private organization or agency on charge of misfeasance,
(4) Used to be imprisoned by final judgment except an offence committed through negligence or petty offence.

 

So basically dead, stupid or crooked.

 

With the above exceptions, committee members continue to be members until they are replaced by co-owner vote at a legal GM, and such a vote should take place at every other AGM ie every two years.

[lkn]

1 hour ago, anfh said:

I would be seriously getting together with the three resigned members and try and get them to act […]

Agree 100%.

 

Don’t bother with the manager, the remaining committee members should call for an EGM and explain the problems to the co-owners who can then vote about replacing management if there really is a problem with management.

 

This will be a lot easier than persuade your JPM to call for the EGM, if he is part of the management company, or getting 20% of co-owners to sign for an EGM (which would be the option to use, if the 3 remaining committee members don’t want to arrange it).

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, anfh said:

I would be seriously getting together with the three resigned members and try and get them to act.

Act how, exactly?

[KittenKong]

49 minutes ago, lkn said:

Don’t bother with the manager, the remaining committee members should call for an EGM and explain the problems to the co-owners who can then vote about replacing management if there really is a problem with management.

And again, how exactly should the committee members do that if they dont know the contact details of co-owners and if the JPM and/or management doesn't want to help them?

 

Presumably by "manager" you mean the JPM? Before advising on bypassing the JPM I think that it would be better to know what the position of the JPM is in this. If he is dragging his feet and obstructing the committee then clearly he needs to be changed and the opportunity to do that will arise at the next AGM. At the moment all we really know is that the committee and "management" dont get on. We really do need more details about the management structure and who or what the JPM is, and his eventual relationship to the building management.

 

Also you assume that the committee members are interested in doing anything at all. From the description given by the OP it would seem that they are not as they seem to have tried to wash their hands of the problem by resigning and walking away, which does not put them in a very good light at all. We have had people do the same in my building, and for me they are just lazy quitters.

 

I'm not sure that it would really be worthwhile calling an EGM now when the AGM is due to be held early next year anyway, unless it is clear that management are truly awful.

[Chris Po]

Thank you a lot for all your inputs ! 

I want to mention some fact ( i am not sure if they are true) the last board member told me. 

He said :  1) the Developer has not sold more than 40 % of the Condos, so he decides and gives the office the advices.  

2) The sinking found is not handled over to the management. 

3) we can not replace the management because when we make a AGM the developer has the most votes , 

 

We have now since December 2017 the same company but the 3rd team sitting in office and pretending work for us. 

The last days the new manager changed the rules for parking and fined the owners with 2000 Baht ( Unlock car or motorbike) . 

I was office today and told her, that she can not change rules without our permission. AGM can change rules, not the manager. 

 

Wednesday we have a small owner meeting, there are maybe 15 -20 people here now, we want to prepare a resolution, if the office does not follow our rules, we want to get rid of them as fast as possible, 

 

Greetings 

Chris

[KittenKong]

 

Thank you a lot for all your inputs ! 

I want to mention some fact ( i am not sure if they are true) the last board member told me. 

He said :  1) the Developer has not sold more than 40 % of the Condos, so he decides and gives the office the advices.  

2) The sinking found is not handled over to the management. 

3) we can not replace the management because when we make a AGM the developer has the most votes ,  

The Condo Act limits the voting rights of any one owner to 50%. But that doesnt really help you very much, unfortunately, as even 50% of the vote is more than enough to control a GM. That rule should be reduced to 10% maximum.

 

"The last days the new manager changed the rules for parking and fined the owners with 2000 Baht ( Unlock car or motorbike) . 

I was office today and told her, that she can not change rules without our permission. AGM can change rules, not the manager. "

 

Only a majority decision of the committee can alter fines, and it could also be discussed and voted on in a GM also though that wouldnt normally be needed. The management company and JPM can never decide this.

 

Do make sure that the developer is paying the common fee for unsold units: they usually try to wriggle out of doing so but it isnt legal.

Your building may have an internal rule that prevents owners with common fee debts from voting at GMs, and that may work in your favour if your developer isnt paying.

[Chris Po]

Yes, we have this : who does not pay common fee can not vote. 

How to find out if the developer pays ? 

Our "Board" says : we are not existing anymore and as normal owner we will not see the details. 

Can the developer decide which company manage us ????

Greetings

Chris 

[Delight]

 

Yes, we have this : who does not pay common fee can not vote. 

How to find out if the developer pays ? 

Our "Board" says : we are not existing anymore and as normal owner we will not see the details. 

Can the developer decide which company manage us ????

Greetings

Chris 

Co –owners decide –not the developer operating in isolation

The developer (whom I assume is a co –owner) can organize a EGM (rules apply ) and at such a meeting (assuming legal) a motion –if passed by a simple majority –can change the management company.

Remember the EGM  is only changing the management company –not the JPM

Edited December 3, 2018 by Delight

[scorecard]

 

And again, how exactly should the committee members do that if they dont know the contact details of co-owners and if the JPM and/or management doesn't want to help them?

 

Presumably by "manager" you mean the JPM? Before advising on bypassing the JPM I think that it would be better to know what the position of the JPM is in this. If he is dragging his feet and obstructing the committee then clearly he needs to be changed and the opportunity to do that will arise at the next AGM. At the moment all we really know is that the committee and "management" dont get on. We really do need more details about the management structure and who or what the JPM is, and his eventual relationship to the building management.

 

Also you assume that the committee members are interested in doing anything at all. From the description given by the OP it would seem that they are not as they seem to have tried to wash their hands of the problem by resigning and walking away, which does not put them in a very good light at all. We have had people do the same in my building, and for me they are just lazy quitters.

 

I'm not sure that it would really be worthwhile calling an EGM now when the AGM is due to be held early next year anyway, unless it is clear that management are truly awful.

 

Further, have the committee members, indeed all co-owners seen / been given an audited set of accounts (detailed income and expenditure) and bank books recently? 

 

If not, why not approach the office manager and staff / the juristic person / the outside management company / current and resigned committee members and request these documents. If they say 'cannot' then ask why not.  If you decided to do this I suggest you should have at least 1 other person, even 2 people with you as witnesses. 

 

Further does the building have a specific lawyer? When I was on the committee for my old condo in Bkk there was an 'appointed lawyer' and his contract said he had to come to meetings when requested, and he did and he did give very specific and clear explanations of the appropriate laws and regulations etc., and he always had several copies of the written laws and regulations with him, in Thai and English. and these were distributed across the meetings for everybody to read, then passed back to the lawyer when the meeting finished.  All owners etc., present were welcome to take smartphone copies of the relevant pages. 

Has anybody approached this person for legal advice?

 

My understanding is that there is a specific unit of the Royal Thai Police who handle these matters. Why not call then and check this point, if they say no then ask 'who should we contact?' 

[Chris Po]

No, we have no lawyer. 

When the Board was elected, there where 2 men, who lived here from the beginning, ( 3 years ), i just lived 5 month here,....these 2 guys where the "basic, the engine" of the board. The others, its my opinion , they take only as decoration. 2 of them come here only for holiday, the 3rd  decoration is a nice guy, but i think they never asked him a lot about decissions they made.  One "motor" sold already and moved, the second is going to sell, has no interest anymore, the 3rd one  is still here, he resigned also, the others i have never seen. 

 

There was never a meeting with the board members, where you can talk with them as simple owner, no information what is going on. 

If i dont talk with people at the pool i dont know that they resigned. 

I have a facebook group about our Condo, about the problems we have. 

 

 

Here, the 3rd guy postet recently that we have no board anymore. 

Than i saw in office that the pictures of the board members are removed. 

 

Since we have official no board anymore the Office thinks they can change rules and regulations as they want and fine the owners.

[Chris Po]

 

 

Remember the EGM  is only changing the management company –not the JPM

We elected at the GM a company to manage us. 

But we did not elect a special person. The company changed this persons meanwhile 3 times. 

[KittenKong]

 

Co –owners decide –not the developer operating in isolation

The developer (whom I assume is a co –owner) can organize a EGM (rules apply ) and at such a meeting (assuming legal) a motion –if passed by a simple majority –can change the management company.

Remember the EGM  is only changing the management company –not the JPM

Actually the committee can change the management company, if it wants to. A co-owner vote is not required (though most people would consider it preferable). This is particularly applicable if the management company needs to be changed at a time that doesn't coincide with a GM.

 

The EGM can also replace the JPM, if necessary. Anything can be done at an EGM. The committee, however, can not sack the JPM.

[KittenKong]

 

We elected at the GM a company to manage us. 

But we did not elect a special person. The company changed this persons meanwhile 3 times. 

You dont seem to understand the terminology.

 

The JPM is a person or company specifically selected by co-owners at a GM to act as legal representative of the building. This is not the same as the building manager (who is just regular staff), nor is it the same as the management company. Some buildings dont have a manager or management company at all, but all buildings must have a JPM. Though in some buildings there are links between the three.

 

It sounds like your management company just changed the building manager, which they can do as often as they want if his contract is with them rather than with you. Either way you really need to get to the bottom of who is who in your building as some changes are legal and some are not.

[KittenKong]

 

Since we have official no board anymore the Office thinks they can change rules and regulations as they want and fine the owners. 

They certainly cannot impose fines. That is the committee's job. Changes to internal regulations would require a large majority vote of all co-owners at a GM.

[KittenKong]

 

 

Further, have the committee members, indeed all co-owners seen / been given an audited set of accounts (detailed income and expenditure) and bank books recently?

Accounts only have to be presented once a year, at an AGM which has to be held within 120 days of the end of the financial year. There is no actual requirement to show bank books though any management company that hides them is probably up to no good.

 

Cash-flow reports have to be made available to all co-owners (ie on a noticeboard) for the previous month by the 15th of every month.

[KittenKong]

 

Yes, we have this : who does not pay common fee can not vote. 

How to find out if the developer pays ?

Excellent. You are entitled to know who has outstanding bills, and if your rules say that co-owners with outstanding bills cannot vote then you have the developer completely over a barrel. The only difficulties will be getting the proper documentation of the debts - and it sounds like your management company may not give it to you - and getting the JPM and/or the management company to disallow the developers votes. If they wont do it then you can complain to the Land Office about this in writing and they may do something about it.