We have no committee anymore but management does not care.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Yes, I am sure you find it easy to prove that all the other committee members know nothing, unlike yourself, who knows everything, yet live in a building where JPM is in complete control and staff does nothing

There are many more reasons for living in a building than just how good the finances or management or staff are (or aren't).

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Sounds like the committee has no idea about hiring; not unsurprising, this is not easy, and if you have no idea of how to actually run/maintain a building, do accounting, etc. then the task is only made harder.

 

In such case, I would recommend that the building goes with a proper facility management company, both OCS and G4S have been recommended to me, and it sounds like your building already pays what such company would charge.

 

Another approach is to visit a building you know is being properly run, and then ask who manages it.

You demonstrate how little you know. My building has a management company, as do all others I know of. In none of them does the committee choose staff: that's management's job (though the committee may exercise some sort of veto or preference, especially for important positions). I think it would be particularly stupid to allow the committee to select staff as it changes every two/four years and is largely made up of people who dont have the faintest idea about staff selection (or anything else for that matter).
That's how it works in large buildings, and what happens in your small building is not really comparable.

I have had contact with and worked with a half-dozen management companies, including the biggest in Thailand, so I do know a fair bit about them.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Our cleaners do a lot more than pushing a broom around.

Yes, I suppose they push a mop around from time to time also. But it's hard to see what else a cleaner could do, that would require any sort of qualification.

 

1 hour ago, lkn said:

If your cleaners are doing nothing, make a task list, possibly have sheets around the building where they must write the time of when they last completed the subtasks for that section, randomly inspect the work, give them warnings if the quality is not good enough, and terminate them after repeat warnings.

Indeed, but this is not the job of a committee. It is the job of management. That's why buildings use management companies.

 

[lkn]

57 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

You demonstrate how little you know

I’ve never claimed to know what goes on in your building, but you seem to say that your staff consists of overpaid incompetent people who are doing nothing except participate in scams and kickback schemes.

 

That you think this is how all big buildings are operated shows how little you know!

 

I am absolutely flabbergasted by your idea that the committee should not involve themselves more in quality control of either management company or the staff being hired, even if the committee changes every 2/4 year.

 

You have been complaining about lazy and corrupt building staff on this forum for as long as I have been a member, and seem to be of the opinion that every building is being run like yours, except of course those who post opinions different than yours, those are just unique outliers, but it seems you have done zero yourself to actually try to “fix” whatever issues you have in your own building, shooting any idea posted here down as unfeasible, impractical, too expensive, not the job of the committee, against Thai labour law, etc., and your absurd idea that the JPM is all powerful and can do whatever they want with the blessings of the Land Office.

 

I am starting to think you want to live in a dysfunctional building so that you have something to complain about.

[KittenKong]

16 hours ago, lkn said:

You have been complaining about lazy and corrupt building staff on this forum for as long as I have been a member, and seem to be of the opinion that every building is being run like yours, except of course those who post opinions different than yours, those are just unique outliers, but it seems you have done zero yourself to actually try to “fix” whatever issues you have in your own building, shooting any idea posted here down as unfeasible, impractical, too expensive, not the job of the committee, against Thai labour law, etc., and your absurd idea that the JPM is all powerful and can do whatever they want with the blessings of the Land Office.

Actually I have done a great deal to try and improve my building, and others, with some success. And the job is ongoing. However in a large building there are various obstacles that do not exist in small buildings. This is what you fail to understand.
Many of the suggestions you have made would not work at all in large buildings, for practical reasons, and some could result in the person implementing them being arrested as I have tried to explain. But in a small building you can get away with them, as long as no one complains, and they may even be successful as they appear to have been in yours.
However I do wonder what would happen when you leave your building, or after four years when you will no longer be on your committee. One man bands are not really a long-term solution and when other people replace you they could quickly undo whatever good you have done, either by design or accident. I've seen this happen many times.

 

The JPM does have a huge amount of power, not least in that he alone cannot be sacked by the committee. In a large building it can be very easy for dishonest people to manipulate things, so it can be very hard to do anything about it. And not all Land Offices care about things like that.

 

By the way, I could complain just as much about incompetent air-con technicians, and I would be just as right to do so. I've tried at least half a dozen different companies over the years, both cheap and expensive, and I have found all of them to be erratic and unreliable in that one day they can do a decent job and the next they can do a lousy one. And they all seem to end up breaking things due to clumsiness.
But the nice things about air-con maintenance are that I can do a lot of it myself, thus getting a decent job done without any damage, and I can also easily monitor every action that anyone else takes if I get someone else in to do it. But neither is in any way practical when it comes to running a large building.

[lkn]

On 12/7/2018 at 8:43 AM, KittenKong said:

Actually I have done a great deal to try and improve my building, and others, with some success. And the job is ongoing. However in a large building there are various obstacles that do not exist in small buildings. This is what you fail to understand.

Yes, I definitely fail to understand that co-owners unsatisfied with how their building is being run are unable to call for an EGM because no-one would pay for postage…

 

On 12/7/2018 at 8:43 AM, KittenKong said:

Many of the suggestions you have made would not work at all in large buildings

There is no recipe for how to fix a dysfunctional building, and I think my “suggestions” have been more along the lines of establishing the proper procedures and hierarchy for who is in charge, which is the same, regardless of the size of the building.

 

If we take your own building where you mentioned that you have a building manager that makes significantly more than 22,500 baht/month but doesn’t actually do anything: Who is this person reporting to?

 

Something has gone completely wrong in your building when you have a building manager that gets a good salary for not working, and it is not just that the building is too large for the committee to micromanage things (which I think is how you have read my comments).

 

You likewise indicated that you have cleaning staff that gets above average pay but doesn’t do anything as well. Who is ultimately responsible for the cleaning? Who does the performance reviews for the cleaning staff? Why is no-one taking action?

 

I will give you that a building with “more than a thousand units” is quite a different beast. I am in Chiang Mai, and I am not aware of any buildings here of that size. I would imagine living in such building does not exactly feel like a joint ownership, but more because of the practical constraints when building such large structure, and the people that such building appeals to. Presumably a lot of the units are sold to investors who won’t live there themselves.

 

A lot of absent co-owners is an obstacle for establishing a quorum on the AGM, but for managing the building itself, if you end up with staff that are paid good money for not doing any work, surely majority of the non-absent co-owners just doesn’t give a damn.

 

But we are talking very theoretically; I know you have previously mentioned all sorts of scams, sure, that could be an obstacle, but again, that is irregardless of the size of the building, and if you think I can be arrested for writing the AGM agenda, surely the people falsifying documents and voting outcomes in your building can be arrested as well!

 

Though I will repeat that something has just gone completely wrong in your building; as you know, staff, committee members, etc. cannot hold proxy votes, the JPM nor their spouse can chair the AGM, etc. so if a small group of people is able to unilaterally control your entire building and overpay staff to do no work, I really wouldn’t take advice from you about what to do when there are problems in a building, as you seem rather unqualified to advice other people when you have been unable to stop the blatant abuse and disregard for both the Thai Condo Act and the majority of co-owners in your own building.

 

On 12/7/2018 at 8:43 AM, KittenKong said:

some could result in the person implementing them being arrested as I have tried to explain

This is just absurd! You have claimed that what I do is against the law. Can you give me an example on how my arrest would go down?

 

Police would come to my condo with a search warrant, find documents on my computer that constitutes “work” beyond what committee members are allowed to do (based on what law?), prove that I created them while in Thailand, and then carry me away in handcuffs?

 

If someone was actually able to orchestre that, they might as well have the police find illegal drugs in my condo, that is actually a scenario I have heard about, so not entirely unrealistic if you upset the wrong people, and much more likely to result in actual problems, as the law about possession of drugs is much clearer than whether or not a committee member is allowed to produce a document.

 

On 12/7/2018 at 8:43 AM, KittenKong said:

However I do wonder what would happen when you leave your building, or after four years when you will no longer be on your committee. One man bands are not really a long-term solution and when other people replace you they could quickly undo whatever good you have done, either by design or accident. I've seen this happen many times.

It’s a good point, and I wish the Thai Condo Act would have only half the committee replaced yearly, instead of entire committee every second year.

 

For running the building, a lot of documentation about technical installations, recurring tasks, what service/maintenance needs to be done, by who, how often, when it was last done, etc. should make it a lot easier for someone else to take over control.

 

Online document sharing and collaboration has made this a lot easier, as all committee members can follow along, even when abroad. Of course we do not have cleaners report online when they have swept the floor, but we may e.g. put evaluation of cleaning staff as a quarterly task for the building manager, such that the committee can act on this, if the quality does not meet expectations.

 

No system is foolproof, but the above goes a long way of giving those committee members who actually wish to do a good job running the building, the proper tools to do so, even if they are otherwise inexperienced.

 

What I have seen a few times is committee members who have no idea about what needs to be done in their building and just assume that they can hire someone who knows. I have a bit more experience than you give me credit for, and I am very aware of the importance and challenges of knowledge management.

 

On 12/7/2018 at 8:43 AM, KittenKong said:

The JPM does have a huge amount of power

This we obviously disagree on. You *can* give the JPM a lot of power by giving him access to your bank account and make him responsible for hiring of all staff, which may be what your building has done, but this is certainly not what all buildings do. Likewise, you can give him an employment agreement without a fixed term, and this might be what your building has done, but the AGMs I have attended, the JPM was elected for a two year period.

 

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Yes, I definitely fail to understand that co-owners unsatisfied with how their building is being run are unable to call for an EGM because no-one would pay for postage…

Unable to call a legal EGM simply because the names and addresses of co-owners are not known. I have repeated this several times but you choose to ignore it. And even if the addresses were known, would you care to pay several tens of thousands of Baht out of your own pocket to send out 1000+ letters? I wouldn't. And there is also the time needed to stick the stamps on and write the labels. Even for just a couple of hundred I would rather avoid it.

You also dont seem to understand just how apathetic many co-owners are in many buildings. Many dont visit the building at all from one year to another and so they simply have no idea about what may be happening in it. That seems to apply in the OP's case. Many others cant even be bothered to walk downstairs once a year to attend an AGM. So in a building like the OP's, where one block controls (legally or illegally) a large number of votes, it may be very hard indeed to achieve anything.

 

1 hour ago, lkn said:

There is no recipe for how to fix a dysfunctional building, and I think my “suggestions” have been more along the lines of establishing the proper procedures and hierarchy for who is in charge, which is the same, regardless of the size of the building.

A large building is very different to a small one. Staff are directed and selected by the management company. That's what the management company is for. They also implement the procedures. The committee may direct the management company if it is motivated to, but in many cases it lacks that motivation for whatever reason. And in other cases it may simply not have the slightest idea what needs doing and so it lets the management company get on with it (which may not be a bad thing if the management company is any good). It can even happen that there is no functioning committee at all, with some members never attending a single meeting, and with others resigning for an assortment of reasons, all of which can result in meetings simply not being held, especially if management would prefer meetings not to be held. Again, this topic is a good example.

I wont even start on the infighting that can occur in a committee, with some co-owners interests being the complete opposite of others (notably the ones who rent out and the ones who are owner-occupiers).

And if on top of all that the management company also happens to be the JPM, and keen to protect their own interests, then there is simply no one left to monitor anything.

 

1 hour ago, lkn said:

This is just absurd! You have claimed that what I do is against the law. Can you give me an example on how my arrest would go down?

You described some tasks that would appear to be work. Certainly in many buildings I know of those tasks would be exclusive job of the management company, or the manager, or the JPM, or some mixture of the three. If you dont have a work permit then to perform those tasks would be illegal. Someone could get upset about that: perhaps the manager, or JPM, or management company, all of whom might think that you are usurping their position, or maybe just some disgruntled co-owners. And if any of those people decided to complain then you could indeed have all sorts of problems. I've personally known committee members who have been threatened with similar things. Hopefully it wont happen to you.

 

2 hours ago, lkn said:

You *can* give the JPM a lot of power by giving him access to your bank account and make him responsible for hiring of all staff, which may be what your building has done, but this is certainly not what all buildings do.

I have never seen a big building which doesn't work like that. The JPM and/or the management company handle the finances and the staff. That's their job. The committee merely monitors it (or not, as the case may be), gives instructions as to what to focus on (or not, as the case may be) and signs the cheques that they are presented with (assuming that the signatories are even updated for a new committee). Again, this topic seems to be one more example of how this can go wrong.

 

2 hours ago, lkn said:

Likewise, you can give him an employment agreement without a fixed term, and this might be what your building has done, but the AGMs I have attended, the JPM was elected for a two year period.

It is common for the JPM to have a two-year contract that parallels the term of the committee. But if at the end of those two years there is no other candidate for the job then a bad JPM is quite likely to be selected for another term. In many buildings it is hard to find even one candidate for JPM, let alone two, which is why the job often ends up being done by someone from the management company. As I have tried to point out: if the management company is any good that can be OK, but if the management company is bad then it merely compounds the problems. Again, this topic is a case in point.

 

You should not assume that any or all of the above necessarily applies in my building, or even that it applies to me personally: you can find a lot of topics on here where people from many buildings have had cause to make similar complaints about their management and have asked for advice. Advice which I am happy to try and give, based on my experiences in several buildings here. This topic is a good example and it has nothing to do with my building at all.

 

 

[Chris Po]

Thank you all for all this "inputs". 

We will wait to the AGM in March/ April and hope to change the JPM and his "team". 

[Chris Po]

We elected in a owner meeting with owners living here 3 Persons , because we have no committee , responsible for the 3 buildings. 

If other owners have problems, or the management want something, they should talk with one of the 3 . 

We gave this protokol, signed by the owners to the office for the JPM. 

Result : We have white lines in garage, for bikes and cars, - today they told me that they change the lines, to make more space for motorbikes and we loose car parking space.

Can they do this without AGM ? 

Fact is, even we are not a HOTEL, WE HAVE A LOT OF TOURISTS HERE, staying 1-2 weeks and using motorbikes ( scooter) . Of course it is not enough space now, but the tourists should not be here. 

Any suggestions ? 

Thank you in advance 

Chris

[Chris Po]

My next question :  I am not sure if the Office has a spare key to my Condo. 

Can i change the lock ? 

[KittenKong]

20 hours ago, Chris Po said:

My next question :  I am not sure if the Office has a spare key to my Condo. 

Can i change the lock ? 

Do you own your unit? If so of course you can change the locks. It's the fist thing I would do on moving in anywhere.

[KittenKong]

20 hours ago, Chris Po said:

We elected in a owner meeting with owners living here 3 Persons , because we have no committee , responsible for the 3 buildings. 

If other owners have problems, or the management want something, they should talk with one of the 3 . 

As explained before, this is not legal. Probably wont do any harm though.

 

20 hours ago, Chris Po said:

We gave this protokol, signed by the owners to the office for the JPM. 

Result : We have white lines in garage, for bikes and cars, - today they told me that they change the lines, to make more space for motorbikes and we loose car parking space.

Can they do this without AGM ? 

Painting white lines does not require a co-owner vote. It is a committee decision and management should not do it without committee approval.
Only changing the usage of an area (ie concreting over a garden to make a car park) would require a co-owner vote.

 

20 hours ago, Chris Po said:

Fact is, even we are not a HOTEL, WE HAVE A LOT OF TOURISTS HERE, staying 1-2 weeks and using motorbikes ( scooter) . Of course it is not enough space now, but the tourists should not be here. 

Any suggestions ? 

Many buildings have this problem. Tenancies of under 30 days are not legal and it is the JPM's job to ensure that the building stays legal. Therefore the JPM should put pressure on whoever is doing these short term lets and the committee should instruct him to do so and should back him up. What happens if he is ignored is anyone's guess. Court action against the short-term landlords for spoiling the peaceful enjoyment of other co-owners would probably be the next step but it could take forever. The local hotel association may also be interested, but I doubt that anyone else will be.

If a large majority (75%+) of all co-owners can vote in favour of it at an AGM then you could in theory alter your building rules to specifically forbid anyone from letting out their units short-term, and then possibly impose a heavy fine on anyone who does. Could be an uphill struggle though.

[Pattaya46]

On 12/8/2018 at 10:47 PM, KittenKong said:

Unable to call a legal EGM simply because the names and addresses of co-owners are not known. //

You don't need to know the personal owners' address to call an EGM

and you don't really need to know their names either

(although I can't believe they are unknow; just ask the Land Office)

 

Seems to me that many condos send the EGM/AGM letters directly to each condo unit, not to the owner address.

So basically with address like "Condo TheName / Owner of Room 123 / CondoAddress"

 

[KittenKong]

1 minute ago, Pattaya46 said:

You don't need to know the personal owners' address to call an EGM

and you don't really need to know their names either

(although I can't believe they are unknow; just ask the Land Office)

Probably not a problem in a building with a few tens of units. Potentially a huge problem in a building with 1000 or 2000 units. The Land Office would surely not provide the addresses in any usable electronic format anyway, so you would still be stuck with addressing many envelopes by hand.

 

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Seems to me that many condos send the EGM/AGM letters directly to each condo unit, not to the owner address.

So basically with address like "Condo TheName / Owner of Room 123 / CondoAddress"

As far as I know that is not legal. That wouldn't stop many condos doing it though.

[scorecard]

17 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Do you own your unit? If so of course you can change the locks. It's the fist thing I would do on moving in anywhere.

Agreed, and especially new keys when moving in.

 

But there's another point to consider. If the office (hopefully stored in an appropriate key locker) has a key to your condo then they can quickly get access if there's suspicion of fire or a break-in, or a burst pipe (your condo, or the one above, or burst pipe / leakage in your condo which is damaging the ceilings etc., of the condo below), etc.

 

Ultimately your decision which was to go on this point. 

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, KittenKong said:

Probably not a problem in a building with a few tens of units. Potentially a huge problem in a building with 1000 or 2000 units. The Land Office would surely not provide the addresses in any usable electronic format anyway, so you would still be stuck with addressing many envelopes by hand.

 

As far as I know that is not legal. That wouldn't stop many condos doing it though.

How could it be not legal?

[KittenKong]

Just now, scorecard said:

But there's another point to consider. If the office (hopefully stored in an appropriate key locker) has a key to your condo then they can quickly get access if there's suspicion of fire or a break-in, or a burst pipe (your condo, or the one above, or burst pipe / leakage in your condo which is damaging the ceilings etc., of the condo below), etc.

This is true but in most units the water stop valve is situated outside the unit in a common area for this very reason.

 

Either way, no one in my building will ever be getting a duplicate of my key, and my insurance will cover any costs.

[KittenKong]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

How could it be not legal?

As far as I know the letters have to be sent to the owner's registered address, not the address of the unit. Of course for some people the two will be the same.

[scorecard]

On 12/6/2018 at 2:28 PM, KittenKong said:

You demonstrate how little you know. My building has a management company, as do all others I know of. In none of them does the committee choose staff: that's management's job (though the committee may exercise some sort of veto or preference, especially for important positions). I think it would be particularly stupid to allow the committee to select staff as it changes every two/four years and is largely made up of people who dont have the faintest idea about staff selection (or anything else for that matter).
That's how it works in large buildings, and what happens in your small building is not really comparable.

I have had contact with and worked with a half-dozen management companies, including the biggest in Thailand, so I do know a fair bit about them.

Management company selecting new staff, and claiming they HAVE to do this by law is not true.

 

This was happening in my old condo in BKK until there was a very serious confrontation at an extra AGM called under the signature of more than 50% of owners.

 

Most of the owners had become very angry about the activities and the attitude of the manager on site and the staff she had employed. 

 

There was a final incident which sparked several owners to knock on doors and ask owners to sign, or not sign, a petition to call an immediate extra owners meeting.

 

The incident; an owner went to the office and asked the manager who was sitting in the office area to come and speak to her. The office girl responded with ' you can't tell anybody what to do here any you have to do what the manager says, and you have to ask for an appointment to see her at least 3 days in advance and also submit a written reason why you want to speak to the manager', then the office girl closed the window and walked away.

 

The extra meeting went ahead and was attended by a very senior cop, an owner in the building.

 

He quickly pulled the management company lady into line and scolded her for her attitude. 

 

A number of items were then discussed including staff recruitment. It became very clear that all  of the staff were relatives of the manager and most had no qualifications or past experience aligned to the jobs they were given.

 

About 1 hour after this meeting started, the senior cop asked to speak and he then asked if any owners wished to propose / suggest any matter for an owners vote.

 

One owner asked immediately for a vote whether the contract for the management company should be cancelled immediately, on the spot. 

 

Vote happened, unanimous vote for immediate cancellation of the contract.

 

Any more...

 

 

 

 

 

 

any 

 

 

[KittenKong]

34 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Management company selecting new staff, and claiming they HAVE to do this by law is not true.

I agree. The committee always has the final veto (if it wants) and no one should ever forget that everyone in the building (staff, manager, management company, JPM) is working for the co-owners, not the other way around.

 

Some managements can get very full of themselves, as what happened in your old building demonstrates.

 

[Chris Po]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

Do you own your unit? If so of course you can change the locks. It's the fist thing I would do on moving in anywhere.

Yes, i bought ! 

[Chris Po]

34 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I agree. The committee always has the final veto (if it wants) and no one should ever forget that everyone in the building (staff, manager, management company, JPM) is working for the co-owners, not the other way around.

 

Some managements can get very full of themselves, as what happened in your old building demonstrates.

 

This is our problem here. 

They think they can make new parking rules, fine people with 2000 Baht if they dont follow them, though we have no committee anymore that cares, they make what they want. 

I talk with the last remaining committee member, who also resigned : He says we dont even have a bank account, maintanance fee for example goes to the bank account of the developer. 

Since some weeks , as i recognized that our committee is not existing anymore, i read a lot about "Condos" and the law,.....nothing is ok here. 

[KittenKong]

6 hours ago, Chris Po said:

They think they can make new parking rules, fine people with 2000 Baht if they dont follow them, though we have no committee anymore that cares, they make what they want. 

I talk with the last remaining committee member, who also resigned : He says we dont even have a bank account, maintanance fee for example goes to the bank account of the developer. 

I think that everyone who has commented in this topic would agree that the bank account situation is all wrong. Your building should have its own accounts and the monthly cash-flow and yearly financial report should be published for all co-owners to see.

 

But as your building has no functioning committee it's hard to blame management for trying to impose some order and rules. Personally I'm all in favour of both rules and fines, as fines are the only thing that many Thais respect. Without fines many Thais - and farangs - will just ignore the rules and do whatever they want, and the building could rapidly become a slum as a result.

 

Is 2000B an unreasonably high fine for parking in the wrong place? Hard to say. After all, only those who dont obey the rules will ever be fined and so it is easy enough for everyone to avoid having to pay it.

[Chris Po]

Hello everybody and again, thank you for all your answers. 

Now the Office told us that in April will be the AGM . 

We have no committee anymore, - so my first question : 

1) Who "leads" the AGM  ? 

Can one of us owners make this ?   

 

2) how many % of the owners must be there to take a decision  ? 

   In April many are gone home already, - what happens when there are maybe only 40 people there ( we have 450 units) ???

3) How many owners must be here to elect a new Committee ???

4) Somebody told me that a Committee can cancel the JPM if he does not make his work properly . 

   True ??? 

5) Who checks the financial part if there is no Committee anymore ? 

6) The Developer has still a lot unsold units .  Can he also vote at the AGM ??

 

Thank you for your answers in advance 

Chris

[KittenKong]

1. The chairman of the committee should do it. If there is no chairman then another committee member should do it. If there are no committee members then just about anyone can be chosen by the co-owners present on the day to do it. There are a few exceptions like the JPM who can never do it.

 

2. The quorum to hold an initial AGM is 25% of the total vote. If 25% are not present then a second meeting should be called within 15 days. This second meeting has no quorum (for most issues). So in a second meeting your 40 units out of 450 would be enough for most decisions to be made.

 

3. Any number at a second meeting. 25% at the first.

 

4. The co-owners can at any legal meeting (25% of the total vote is required to hire or fire a JPM). Committee members can refuse to sign cheques and can call an EGM if necessary, so they can force this to be voted on. If no JPM can be elected due to lack of numbers then the committee has to choose a committee member to do the job.

 

5. No one, but co-owners can ask to see the monthly cash-flow which should always be posted for all to see (but often isnt). Stupid and lazy committees often dont check anyway.

 

6. Yes. Normally any co-owner with no unpaid debts can vote though the exact details may depend on your internal by-laws. No one person can have more than 50% of the votes on the day, but 50% is usually enough. I think that 50% is too high.

 

 

 

[lkn]

On 2/8/2019 at 4:21 PM, Chris Po said:

Now the Office told us that in April will be the AGM

Ask them when they expect to send out invitations with agenda, financial report, and budget for the coming year.

 

This material should give a hint about your situation, like how does your finances actually look, what do they intend to put on the agenda (new committee, new JPM?).

 

You can of course also submit proposals yourself to the agenda (nominate your own JPM, new management company, etc.).

 

On 2/8/2019 at 4:21 PM, Chris Po said:

In April many are gone home already

They can (and probably should) give proxies to the remaining co-owners. But no person can hold more than 3 proxies.

 

Even if the developer still has the majority, they may show you more respect if you show up representing 40% of the total votes instead of only 8%.

[JayBird]

So what do you suggest to do in a situation where:

1) no meeting has been held
2) the JPM was appointed by the developer
3) No records, books, or accounting are shown when asked
4) developer still owns a large % of the property.

And, are you in your right to not pay maintenance fees since you can not see how it is being spent?

[lkn]

10 minutes ago, JayBird said:

Are you in your right to not pay maintenance fees since you can not see how it is being spent?

If no initial meeting has been held, there would be no bylaws that state the management fee. Is there a sales contract that says anything about management fee?

 

Personally I would probably tell the developer that I will pay common expenses proportional to my ratio of ownership, but they must either present me with proper books or the actual bills (electricity, water, etc.) and I will pay based on that.

 

Non-mandatory expenses that have not been agreed to by the co-owners (i.e. by proposing a budget on the AGM) I would not pay, this could e.g. be salaries to contractors beyond what is reasonable.

 

This assumes that your condominium has been registered more than 6 months ago, i.e. that the developer is clearly in the wrong by not having held the initial General Meeting with proposed budget, bylaws, etc.

[smutcakes]

10 hours ago, lkn said:

If no initial meeting has been held, there would be no bylaws that state the management fee. Is there a sales contract that says anything about management fee?

 

Personally I would probably tell the developer that I will pay common expenses proportional to my ratio of ownership, but they must either present me with proper books or the actual bills (electricity, water, etc.) and I will pay based on that.

 

Non-mandatory expenses that have not been agreed to by the co-owners (i.e. by proposing a budget on the AGM) I would not pay, this could e.g. be salaries to contractors beyond what is reasonable.

 

This assumes that your condominium has been registered more than 6 months ago, i.e. that the developer is clearly in the wrong by not having held the initial General Meeting with proposed budget, bylaws, etc.

They bye laws are registered with the relevant authorities as a condition precedent to being approved as a Juristic Condominium and for transfer of units to commence. So if the developer has registered it as a condo then there are bye laws already in affect.

 

If you have transferred your unit then you are duty bound to pay the condo maintenance fees even if there are many problems surrounding them. As much as it may stick in the throat it is never a good position to argue from if you yourself are breaching the regulations as a means of trying to prove a point. You should pay the fees as per the condo regulations and fight your corner from a position of strength rather than not.

[lkn]

12 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

If you have transferred your unit then you are duty bound to pay the condo maintenance fees even if there are many problems surrounding them. As much as it may stick in the throat it is never a good position to argue from if you yourself are breaching the regulations as a means of trying to prove a point. You should pay the fees as per the condo regulations and fight your corner from a position of strength rather than not.

I do agree that vigilantism is not a good strategy and my suggestion was not to break rules to prove a point but to get the developer to get their act together.

 

I.e. a developer that does not do any bookkeeping, budgeting, nor holds any AGMs, should not expect co-owners to just pay whatever invoice is sent to them.

 

By law you are required to pay for your share of the common expenses, but it is only fair that the developer provides some sort of documentation to prove these expenses are legit, and it is perfectly fine to question an invoice, asking for these documents, which by law, the developer should provide.

 

It is of course important that you make it clear that you are not paying an invoice because you are awaiting these documents.

 

And of course you should also file a complaint with the Land Office.