We have no committee anymore but management does not care.

[JayBird]

I do agree that vigilantism is not a good strategy and my suggestion was not to break rules to prove a point but to get the developer to get their act together.
 
I.e. a developer that does not do any bookkeeping, budgeting, nor holds any AGMs, should not expect co-owners to just pay whatever invoice is sent to them.
 
By law you are required to pay for your share of the common expenses, but it is only fair that the developer provides some sort of documentation to prove these expenses are legit, and it is perfectly fine to question an invoice, asking for these documents, which by law, the developer should provide.
 
It is of course important that you make it clear that you are not paying an invoice because you are awaiting these documents.
 
And of course you should also file a complaint with the Land Office.

Does filing a complaint with land office do anything effectual?

[lkn]

Just now, JayBird said:

Does filing a complaint with land office do anything effectual?

The Land Office is not to be confused with a court (which can actually issue fines etc.), but it provides a dated written trail of the situation, which can be very useful to have later, should the case end up in court or mediation.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, smutcakes said:

They bye laws are registered with the relevant authorities as a condition precedent to being approved as a Juristic Condominium and for transfer of units to commence. So if the developer has registered it as a condo then there are bye laws already in affect.

 

If you have transferred your unit then you are duty bound to pay the condo maintenance fees even if there are many problems surrounding them. As much as it may stick in the throat it is never a good position to argue from if you yourself are breaching the regulations as a means of trying to prove a point. You should pay the fees as per the condo regulations and fight your corner from a position of strength rather than not.

Plus, buying a condo is buying into a community living environment. And obviously that means everybody concerned contributing to creating and maintaining a pleasant, safe, secure place to live, and more.

 

Also meaning there has to be somes rules and regulations and hopefully not too many.

 

And it's not going to work when individual condo owners try to 'go it alone'.

 

Example my old condo in Bkk, 24 floors, one young Thai lady (unit owner) insisted that the auto locking door to the lift area (with all owners having a proximity card), be disabled 24 hours a day so that her friends could visit unhindered by the security door on the ground floor.

 

Several times she approached the maintenance team and the security guards trying to demand they disable the lock on the security door. Asking her to recognize that other families, many with kids lived in the building and they wanted security was a waste of time 'not my problem' etc.

 

Just by chance a senior cop bought a large condo in the building, pleasant guy, young family, and he made it clear he wanted to abide by the condo rules. When he was told about the errant young lady who wanted no security he visited her, with 2 committee members. It seems that the cop kept emphasising, in her face, that she was selfish and ignoring that she owned a unit in a community living scenario.

 

After a few months she sold and moved out. She told others she just couldn't cope with the 'rules', 'I want no rules about anything'. The senior cop discovered she had a long list of driving offences and every time she tried the line 'I don't like rules and I don't want rules about how to drive, it's up to me'. 

 

[scorecard]

14 hours ago, lkn said:

If no initial meeting has been held, there would be no bylaws that state the management fee. Is there a sales contract that says anything about management fee?

 

Personally I would probably tell the developer that I will pay common expenses proportional to my ratio of ownership, but they must either present me with proper books or the actual bills (electricity, water, etc.) and I will pay based on that.

 

Non-mandatory expenses that have not been agreed to by the co-owners (i.e. by proposing a budget on the AGM) I would not pay, this could e.g. be salaries to contractors beyond what is reasonable.

 

This assumes that your condominium has been registered more than 6 months ago, i.e. that the developer is clearly in the wrong by not having held the initial General Meeting with proposed budget, bylaws, etc.

All meaning that's it's highly desirable that the office manager must (repeat must) prepare a document every month and delivered to every condo and put on public easily viewed notice board with full details of income and expenditure.

 

From my previous experience being an owner in Bkk, this document also needs to be independently audited and signed that it's correct.

 

Just one example of what can and does happen: This document was prepared every 6 months by the office manager in my old condo, it always mentioned a main insurance on the actual structure and on the equipments etc., yearly premium something like 500,000Baht.

 

At a nasty owners meeting an accountant (unit owner) asked to see all the current and past insurance documents. Office manager refused saying they were confidential. After some serious demands the documents were produced. A thorough analysis revealed:

 

- There was a policy document, issued by an insurance company, some 20 years earlier. 

 

- On statements of actual outgoings premium payments were mentioned for 20 years but no receipt documents from the insurance company could be found.

 

- Several owners went to the insurance company, insisted on talking to a senior exec., of the company asking for confirmation that premiums had or had not been received for the previous 20 years? (Give us a written complete answer or we go to the police.)

 

- A couple of days later a letter from insurance co., stating , no payment not even for the first year had ever been received by the insurance company.

 

- Police were called, it was eventually discovered that cheques had been issued in the name of the office manager and had been deposited into bank accounts owned by the office manager.

 

 

[lkn]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

All meaning that's it's highly desirable that the office manager must (repeat must) prepare a document every month and delivered to every condo and put on public easily viewed notice board with full details of income and expenditure.

  

From my previous experience being an owner in Bkk, this document also needs to be independently audited and signed that it's correct.

A monthly income and expenditure report must be posted to the bulletin board. The JPM is liable for a fine if this is not done (within the first 15 days of each month).

 

The independently audited report is the yearly financial report to be presented at the AGM (balance sheet with profit and loss).

 

Majority of the AGM attendees actually appoint the auditor, so in theory they could appoint one of the big four accounting firms, if they suspect foul play.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, lkn said:

A monthly income and expenditure report must be posted to the bulletin board. The JPM is liable for a fine if this is not done (within the first 15 days of each month).

That is what should happen, but how to prove it if it doesnt? I may say there is no cash-flow report posted but management may say there is. How can the Land Office decide who is telling the truth or whether to impose a fine or not? And the requirement is only that a report has to be posted. It could be a report full of errors and omissions and there is no Land Office penalty for that.

 

2 hours ago, lkn said:

Majority of the AGM attendees actually appoint the auditor, so in theory they could appoint one of the big four accounting firms, if they suspect foul play.

I know of buildings that have ignored the choice of auditor voted by co-owners and which have used another more "friendly" one, at higher cost. Given that management hold all the documents it would not be easy for co-owners to get another auditor to check things. Besides which Thai audits are very cursory and of little real value.

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

- A couple of days later a letter from insurance co., stating , no payment not even for the first year had ever been received by the insurance company.

 

- Police were called, it was eventually discovered that cheques had been issued in the name of the office manager and had been deposited into bank accounts owned by the office manager.

This sort of thing happens far more often than most people realise. Massive scams happen here and this type of fraud is common.

[lkn]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

That is what should happen, but how to prove it if it doesnt? I may say there is no cash-flow report posted but management may say there is. How can the Land Office decide who is telling the truth or whether to impose a fine or not? And the requirement is only that a report has to be posted. It could be a report full of errors and omissions and there is no Land Office penalty for that.

For the Land Office, this is not the institution that issues fines, those are issued by a court of law.

 

As for proving that financial reports are not posted, one way would be to take a photo of the bulletin board the 15th of each month, send this to the JPM, and ask when to expect the report, and request a photo be taken and sent back, to prove that it has been posted (or simply request a copy of the monthly report).

 

If you have six months of these emails, you have a pretty good case against the JPM, assuming the bulletin board has stayed unchanged in this period.

 

As for reports that are misleading, that is why there is the yearly externally audited report.

 

But I was simply clarifying @scorecard’s statement about what laws surround the financial statements, I wasn’t saying that these laws alone will guarantee that everything runs smoothly.

 

If you have managers that ignore the wishes of co-owners, cook the books, and bribe auditors, well, you sure are in a mess, fortunately I have not met any such building, but if I ran into one, I would imagine that taking on a lawyer and get a court ruling would be the way to go, as surely the managers have made themselves complicit in all sorts of crimes.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, lkn said:

As for proving that financial reports are not posted, one way would be to take a photo of the bulletin board the 15th of each month, send this to the JPM, and ask when to expect the report, and request a photo be taken and sent back, to prove that it has been posted (or simply request a copy of the monthly report).

Photos prove little. Dates on them can be changed very easily. Even if one takes a photo with today's newspaper and a blank space on the bulletin board it would be easy for management to say that there was a document but that it had been removed before the photo was taken. In the same way it would be easy to put a document up, take a photo and then remove the document.

 

2 hours ago, lkn said:

As for reports that are misleading, that is why there is the yearly externally audited report.

Such audits are a complete joke here. Even the best of them are next to worthless and just confirm that the addition is correct.

 

2 hours ago, lkn said:

If you have managers that ignore the wishes of co-owners, cook the books, and bribe auditors, well, you sure are in a mess, fortunately I have not met any such building, but if I ran into one, I would imagine that taking on a lawyer and get a court ruling would be the way to go, as surely the managers have made themselves complicit in all sorts of crimes.

Let's suppose that someone owns a small condo in a building with crooked management. Is that person going to engage a lawyer at huge expense and wait for several years for Thai justice to run its course, at the end of which there would probably just be a small fine and no possibility of recovering either costs or any missing common fees? Or is that person just going to grin and bear it? Or sell up quick at a loss and go elsewhere?

I think I know which I would do.

[Chris Po]

I, for my self, paid the maintanace fee already,...and also the other owners i know personal. 

Our problem is that we want a good management, not a management working for the developer, we want a management working for us, we pay them..... ! 

Since the old committee resigns they behave like "half-gods", they make what THEY think is good, dont ask the owners,.....- and of course we are not happy with this. 

Many owners complained that there is no EGM, but they did not make one, even there is no committee. 

So we want the AGM that brings a strong Committee- the owners live here have a "Team" already in plan,....and of course we want a JPM working for us , too. 

[scorecard]

 

  3 hours ago, lkn said:

As for proving that financial reports are not posted, one way would be to take a photo of the bulletin board the 15th of each month, send this to the JPM, and ask when to expect the report, and request a photo be taken and sent back, to prove that it has been posted (or simply request a copy of the monthly report).

Photos prove little. Dates on them can be changed very easily. Even if one takes a photo with today's newspaper and a blank space on the bulletin board it would be easy for management to say that there was a document but that it had been removed before the photo was taken. In the same way it would be easy to put a document up, take a photo and then remove the document.

 

  3 hours ago, lkn said:

As for reports that are misleading, that is why there is the yearly externally audited report.

Such audits are a complete joke here. Even the best of them are next to worthless and just confirm that the addition is correct.

 

  3 hours ago, lkn said:

If you have managers that ignore the wishes of co-owners, cook the books, and bribe auditors, well, you sure are in a mess, fortunately I have not met any such building, but if I ran into one, I would imagine that taking on a lawyer and get a court ruling would be the way to go, as surely the managers have made themselves complicit in all sorts of crimes.

"Let's suppose that someone owns a small condo in a building with crooked management. Is that person going to engage a lawyer at huge expense and wait for several years for Thai justice to run its course, at the end of which there would probably just be a small fine and no possibility of recovering either costs or any missing common fees? Or is that person just going to grin and bear it? Or sell up quick at a loss and go elsewhere?

I think I know which I would do."

And there is some risk that you will be branded as a trouble maker 

- 'don't make waves, not nice'.

 

 

[lkn]

14 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Photos prove little. Dates on them can be changed very easily. Even if one takes a photo with today's newspaper and a blank space on the bulletin board it would be easy for management to say that there was a document but that it had been removed before the photo was taken. In the same way it would be easy to put a document up, take a photo and then remove the document.

Sure, anything is possible. But the person doing this is committing further fraud, making themselves liable to even more punishment.

 

And remember this would happen in a court setting, so they would have to convince a judge. If you have multiple co-owners with letters showing they repeatedly requested the monthly report, filed a complaint with the Land Office, maybe the Land Office even sent out a person to the building to check, and their report will be submitted as evidence as well, etc.

 

Though you can always construct a hypothetical which resemble Kafka’s The Trial, or where your building manager is Pablo Escobar, and maybe you feel that you live in such world, but it is not the Thailand that I experience, despite problems with corruption and incompetence.

 

14 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Let's suppose that someone owns a small condo in a building with crooked management. Is that person going to engage a lawyer at huge expense and wait for several years for Thai justice to run its course, at the end of which there would probably just be a small fine and no possibility of recovering either costs or any missing common fees? Or is that person just going to grin and bear it? Or sell up quick at a loss and go elsewhere?

Engaging a lawyer is not the first step, and exactly what to do would depend on the situation. I am basically just following your hypotheticals with the logical next step, but as said before, your hypotheticals are pretty far out there, e.g. managers that refuse to use the auditor that is appointed by the co-owners: Surely something is seriously wrong in such case, and that management company has to go ASAP! And if the co-owners can’t manage this on their own, they need to bring someone who can help them, even if it has a price, because the long-term cost is much higher, not just money, but take how cynical and pessimistic you yourself has become, I would say that is also a pretty high price of living in a building controlled by gangsters.

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, lkn said:

Engaging a lawyer is not the first step, and exactly what to do would depend on the situation. I am basically just following your hypotheticals with the logical next step, but as said before, your hypotheticals are pretty far out there, e.g. managers that refuse to use the auditor that is appointed by the co-owners: Surely something is seriously wrong in such case, and that management company has to go ASAP! And if the co-owners can’t manage this on their own, they need to bring someone who can help them, even if it has a price, because the long-term cost is much higher, not just money, but take how cynical and pessimistic you yourself has become, I would say that is also a pretty high price of living in a building controlled by gangsters.

I think you have a lot to learn about what happens in some buildings in some places here.

[Chris Po]

Today the Office has announced the AGM in the elevators ! 

4. April .
All owners should be contacted.
Let's wait and see if we get post- mail. 

 

Must they contact all owners ?  Is it enough to make an announcment in the building ?   I think not !! 

[zappalot]

39 minutes ago, Chris Po said:

Today the Office has announced the AGM in the elevators ! 

 

Must they contact all owners ?  Is it enough to make an announcment in the building ?   I think not !! 

 

I would recommend you to read the Condominium Act of Thailand - very interesting and answers most questions.

 

We found many violations of our management+JPM+Committee against the Act and filed complaints to the land department more than a month ago - lets see, so far no response...

[lkn]

13 hours ago, Chris Po said:

Must they contact all owners ?

Yes, they must send to all owners the agenda, financial report, budget, etc. and reasonable details about the subjects to be discussed at the AGM, but only required to be delivered no later than seven days before the meeting.

 

So I think this notice in the elevator is simply a pre-invite about the AGM which seems like a good service.

 

We do the same in my building, as soon as we have agreed on the date, we inform the co-owners, but let them know that the formal invitation will follow later (as we may not have financial report audited yet, received all proposals for the agenda, etc.).

[Chris Po]

On 2/21/2019 at 10:50 PM, zappalot said:

 

I would recommend you to read the Condominium Act of Thailand - very interesting and answers most questions.

 

We found many violations of our management+JPM+Committee against the Act and filed complaints to the land department more than a month ago - lets see, so far no response...

yes, i have to do, i download already. 

[Chris Po]

On 2/23/2019 at 3:18 PM, Chris Po said:

yes, i have to do, i download already. 

Hello again, 

the last days we get the invitation for the AGM, held on the 22. April in one of our buildings. 

I / We did not get the financial report or a budget for the next year. 

The agenda says we approve this during the AGM . 

The invitation comes with E- Mail. 

How to check the financial report within short time at a AGM ? 

 

Greetings 

Chris 

[Chris Po]

After some owners meetings, one also an ex-Committee member joined, we know now, that we have a Bank Account for our Building. 

1) But he says the maintanance fee , which the owners paid goes to the bank account of the developer. 

 

Can we check this at the AGM public ? 

 

2) if the developer did not pay the maintanance fee to our bank account : 

   CAN he vote at the AGM ? 

Can we check this at the AGM public ? 

 

Thank you 

Chris

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, Chris Po said:

I / We did not get the financial report or a budget for the next year. 

The agenda says we approve this during the AGM . 

The invitation comes with E- Mail. 

How to check the financial report within short time at a AGM ? 

For practical reasons an invitation to an AGM does not normally include the full report: it would cost too much in postage. You should be able to collect a copy in advance of the meeting at your front office.

 

Email invitations are not legal as far as I know. One of the things the Land Office asks for when registering AGM results is the receipt for registered mail from the Post Office.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, Chris Po said:

1) But he says the maintanance fee , which the owners paid goes to the bank account of the developer. 

 

Can we check this at the AGM public ? 

 

2) if the developer did not pay the maintanance fee to our bank account : 

   CAN he vote at the AGM ? 

Can we check this at the AGM public ? 

Item 1 is wrong. Your committee/JPM should arrange to open new accounts in the building's name with the committee as signers. You have the right to demand this information at a GM but you may not get it. You can also demand to see bank books but again they may not do it.

 

2. Anyone who is behind in their fees for more than a few months loses the right to vote. Verifying this will be hard if the people who are behind are those running the meeting. You can insist on being given a copy of the co-owner debts but they may avoid doing so.

 

You need to motivate your co-owners.

[Chris Po]

....motivate the owners  ????

The AGM is so late that many of them go back Europa or Australia already, they gave me Proxys, but i can only use 3,......some russians are here, they dont speak any word english,.....many are renters,....dont go to the AGM, ....maybe there are 10 owners i know here,....so anyway we will have a second AGM ,....

[KittenKong]

9 hours ago, Chris Po said:

....motivate the owners  ????

The AGM is so late that many of them go back Europa or Australia already, they gave me Proxys, but i can only use 3,......some russians are here, they dont speak any word english,.....many are renters,....dont go to the AGM, ....maybe there are 10 owners i know here,....so anyway we will have a second AGM ,....

You can give those extra proxies to anyone: it does not have to be a co-owner. In crooked buildings it is common for management or the crooked contingent of co-owners to employ random people like motorbike taxi drivers to do this for a couple of hundred Baht. Play them at their own game. Your renters can also hold proxies and they may want to do that if they are concerned about what happens in the building.

 

At your second meeting there will be no quorum for most issues.

[Jen65]

Can anyone recommend a reliable Condo Management Company ??  

[KittenKong]

12 hours ago, Jen65 said:

Can anyone recommend a reliable Condo Management Company ??  

Where?

[Henryford]

Jen65 shows Jomtien as a location. My condo in Jomtien uses QPM, we have been very happy with their service. But of course you still need a diligent Committee to oversee all aspects of management.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

Jen65 shows Jomtien as a location. My condo in Jomtien uses QPM, we have been very happy with their service. But of course you still need a diligent Committee to oversee all aspects of management.

Very true, years back our committee had become very inactive to the point 2 old stingg Thai Chinese ladies were the only active committee members and they refused to spend 1 Baht, meaning that progressively many things needed some / a lot of maintenance, plus they cut the cleaning staff by 50%. Hallways and lobby swept and mopped once a week.

 

Bottom line, you want things to run smoothly and with quality it needs resources. Also meaning that there must be an active committee.

 

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, Henryford said:

Jen65 shows Jomtien as a location. My condo in Jomtien uses QPM, we have been very happy with their service.

QPM actually work in many parts of Thailand, so they are probably a good option regardless of where the Jen65's condo is located. They are not the best but nor are they the worst, and they seem to offer fair value for money. Of course if money is no object then it would probably be worth looking are more upmarket management.

[Chris Po]

On 4/1/2019 at 8:13 AM, KittenKong said:

You can give those extra proxies to anyone: it does not have to be a co-owner. In crooked buildings it is common for management or the crooked contingent of co-owners to employ random people like motorbike taxi drivers to do this for a couple of hundred Baht. Play them at their own game. Your renters can also hold proxies and they may want to do that if they are concerned about what happens in the building.

 

At your second meeting there will be no quorum for most issues.

I have now 6 proxis, but can use only 3.  Can my wife use the other one ? 

I can also give them to another owner who is on my side  i think 

Thanks

Chris

[KittenKong]

44 minutes ago, Chris Po said:

I have now 6 proxis, but can use only 3.  Can my wife use the other one ? 

Pretty much any sane adult is OK: up to three each. Committee members and management etc are not allowed to hold any.