NZ tourist sexually assualted near Grand Palace, police say

[Bluespunk]

17 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Exactly, it makes no difference what actually happened, the woman said she was raped, so the man is guilty.
 

 

In cases of rape it is the rapist alone that bears responsibility. 

 

Nothing the victim does, puts any responsibility on them. 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 12/3/2018 at 11:43 PM, marqus12 said:

she is a rape victim or rather a victim of a change of mind ?

Whether she initially consented to go with the guy (not 100% clear to me) and even if she had initially consented to sex (even less clear) if she then withdrew that consent, it's still rape.

 

If you're struggling with the concept of consent, have a look at this video released by Thames Valley Police. It compares having sex to making a cup of tea for someone. This may seem a trifle simplistic at first but if you watch the video, I think the comparison becomes clear. 

 

Consent - it's as simple as tea

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

even if she had initially consented to sex (even less clear) if she then withdrew that consent, it's still rape.

Not in Thailand, where consent is irrevocable once given.

Although I agree it would be bad manners to continue if she changed her mind (which is why I never touch white women these days, they're far too dangerous IMHO).

Edited December 8, 2018 by BritManToo

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

This has nothing to do with pc. 

 

When it comes to rape, 100% responsibility lies with the rapist. 

 

Victims are not to blame for the behaviour of such filth. 

 

It has everything to do with being politically correct, because most of the comments, yours included are shrouded in the popular and fashionable politically correct comment  that a victim can, in no way, ever be responsible for events leading up to an incident. 

 

The issue is multifaceted and not as simple as someone being 100% 'not responsible'

 

.... I ask you Bluespunk... would you be conformable with your Daughter or Wife choosing to place themselves in a similar situation (i.e. being intoxicated and alone in an alley). 

 

Now... Of course, in a perfect world nothing will happen - but anyone who is unable to reconcile the risks a person places themselves under such circumstances is unable to view the world from a realistic perspective. 

 

Of course the 100% of the blame lies with the rapist...  but not the responsibility for the rapist has already proven that they are unwilling to be responsible for a victim, any potential would be victims should therefor be responsible for themselves and their actions and avoid placing themselves at risk... Again, this is not 'Victim Blaming' it's pure and simple common sense.... 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by richard_smith237

[mogandave]

Whether she initially consented to go with the guy (not 100% clear to me) and even if she had initially consented to sex (even less clear) if she then withdrew that consent, it's still rape.
 
If you're struggling with the concept of consent, have a look at this video released by Thames Valley Police. It compares having sex to making a cup of tea for someone. This may seem a trifle simplistic at first but if you watch the video, I think the comparison becomes clear. 
 

I think we all agree that in the event she did not consent, or consented and sometime withdrew her consent, the man is a rapist and should be convicted as such.

What is not clear is why the assumption is that the man is a rapist. We have no way of knowing whether or not the woman consented or not.

All we know is what the woman says happened, and what the man says happened.

Why is it assumed the woman is being truthful and the man not?

[mogandave]

Whether she initially consented to go with the guy (not 100% clear to me) and even if she had initially consented to sex (even less clear) if she then withdrew that consent, it's still rape.
 
If you're struggling with the concept of consent, have a look at this video released by Thames Valley Police. It compares having sex to making a cup of tea for someone. This may seem a trifle simplistic at first but if you watch the video, I think the comparison becomes clear. 
 

I think we all agree that in the event she did not consent, or consented and sometime withdrew her consent, the man is a rapist and should be convicted as such.

What is not clear is why the assumption is that the man is a rapist. We have no way of knowing whether or not the woman consented or not.

All we know is what the woman says happened, and what the man says happened.

Why is it assumed the woman is being truthful and the man not?

[Bluespunk]

13 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It has everything to do with being politically correct, because most of the comments, yours included are shrouded in the popular and fashionable politically correct comment  that a victim can, in no way, ever be responsible for events leading up to an incident. 

 

The issue is multifaceted and not as simple as someone being 100% 'not responsible'

 

.... I ask you Bluespunk... would you be conformable with your Daughter or Wife choosing to place themselves in a similar situation (i.e. being intoxicated and alone in an alley). 

 

Now... Of course, in a perfect world nothing will happen - but anyone who is unable to reconcile the risks a person places themselves under such circumstances is unable to view the world from a realistic perspective. 

 

Of course the 100% of the blame lies with the rapist...  but not the responsibility for the rapist has already proven that they are unwilling to be responsible for a victim, any potential would be victims should therefor be responsible for themselves and their actions and avoid placing themselves at risk... Again, this is not 'Victim Blaming' it's pure and simple common sense.... 

 

 

Saying anyone but the rapist is 100% responsible is victim blaming. 

 

It’s also wrong. 

 

Its not pc to say this, it’s stating the truth. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by Bluespunk

[richard_smith237]

26 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Saying anyone but the rapist is 100% responsible is victim blaming. 

 

It’s also wrong. 

 

Its not pc to say this, it’s stating the truth. 

It is an interesting debate....  but not one on which there are two definitive camps 'black and white' so to speak... the issue is Multifaceted and not as simplistic as you make it out... the world is not perfect and we have to accept this when taking responsibility for our own actions and decisions...  

 

An example of this below.... 

 

A number of years ago, while still in our 20’s my sister visited me in Bangkok. 

It was Songkran and we’d enjoyed ourselves in RCA…. As RCA wound down my sister wanted to continue the party and wished to go to Silom. 

 

I advised that in Silom on Songkran things are taken to another level, guys are more aggressive and the lateness (3am-ish) means more drunk crazy people.

 

Nevertheless, my sister wished to go…  She didn’t tell me until after they’d passed and were out of sight, but one of the guys in a group had grabbed her breast as we passed them (luckily I didn’t see it – lucky for me, there was a group of them, I would’ve probably ended up badly beaten).

 

Both my sister and I bear some of the responsibility for what happened that night. The guy who grabbed my sisters breast is clearly 100% to blame… However, my sister and I placed ourselves in that situation….  Being intelligent adults and ready to accept responsibility for our own actions we accept that we are partially responsible for the events which took place and decisions we made leading up to that point. 

 

This does not blame my sister for what happened – but it identifies another facet of responsibility one cannot avoid. 

[Bluespunk]

17 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It is an interesting debate....  but not one on which there are two definitive camps 'black and white' so to speak... the issue is Multifaceted and not as simplistic as you make it out... the world is not perfect and we have to accept this when taking responsibility for our own actions and decisions...  

 

An example of this below.... 

 

A number of years ago, while still in our 20’s my sister visited me in Bangkok. 

It was Songkran and we’d enjoyed ourselves in RCA…. As RCA wound down my sister wanted to continue the party and wished to go to Silom. 

 

I advised that in Silom on Songkran things are taken to another level, guys are more aggressive and the lateness (3am-ish) means more drunk crazy people.

 

Nevertheless, my sister wished to go…  She didn’t tell me until after they’d passed and were out of sight, but one of the guys in a group had grabbed her breast as we passed them (luckily I didn’t see it – lucky for me, there was a group of them, I would’ve probably ended up badly beaten).

 

Both my sister and I bear some of the responsibility for what happened that night. The guy who grabbed my sisters breast is clearly 100% to blame… However, my sister and I placed ourselves in that situation….  Being intelligent adults and ready to accept responsibility for our own actions we accept that we are partially responsible for the events which took place and decisions we made leading up to that point. 

 

This does not blame my sister for what happened – but it identifies another facet of responsibility one cannot avoid. 

For me there is no responsibility because a victim happened to be in a place where sexual predators are. 

 

In my mind a victim cannot be blamed for being in a place they have every right to be. 

 

The actions carried out by such predatory filth are their choice and they alone are responsible for what happens. 

 

Victims cannot be blamed for the behaviour of scum. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by Bluespunk

[lemonjelly]

It’s about taking responsibility for one’s own safety, that’s why we’re taught to make sure the traffic has stopped for you before you waltz out onto a pedestrian crossing; there’s <deleted> out there that don’t stop.

[mogandave]

For me there is no responsibility because a victim happened to be in a place where sexual predators are. 
 
In my mind a victim cannot be blamed for being in a place they have every right to be. 
 
The actions carried out by such predatory filth are their choice and they alone are responsible for what happens. 
 
Victims cannot be blamed for the behaviour of scum. 

So to be clear, it makes no difference to you what actually happened, or that the woman could well be lying, it’s your position that the man is rapist scum and should have his life ruined, is that correct?

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

For me there is no responsibility because a victim happened to be in a place where sexual predators are. 

 

In my mind a victim cannot be blamed for being in a place they have every right to be. 

 

The actions carried out by such predatory filth are their choice and they alone are responsible for what happens. 

 

Victims cannot be blamed for the behaviour of scum. 

 

I quite agree....  the victim cannot be blamed for the behavior of scum.... 

 

However, the argument I present it that people are responsible for their own safety, when this responsibility is neglected the risks they expose themselves to increases and in some cases the consequences can be extreme. 

 

 

 

[mogandave]

 
I quite agree....  the victim cannot be blamed for the behavior of scum.... 
 
However, the argument I present it that people are responsible for their own safety, when this responsibility is neglected the risks they expose themselves to increases and in some cases the consequences can be extreme. 
 
 
 

Absolutely not!! Woman are (apparently) inferior to men and can not be expected to take responsibility for their actions.

[Bluespunk]

9 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

So to be clear, it makes no difference to you what actually happened, or that the woman could well be lying, it’s your position that the man is rapist scum and should have his life ruined, is that correct?

 

I am talking about the culture of victim blaming. 

 

As you know. 

[marqus12]

2 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Whether she initially consented to go with the guy (not 100% clear to me) and even if she had initially consented to sex (even less clear) if she then withdrew that consent, it's still rape.

 

If you're struggling with the concept of consent, have a look at this video released by Thames Valley Police. It compares having sex to making a cup of tea for someone. This may seem a trifle simplistic at first but if you watch the video, I think the comparison becomes clear. 

 

Consent - it's as simple as tea

Every few months I leave Thailand for a few days. When I'm flying

alone I get drunk and I'm looking for a girl... nothing bad ever

happened to me because i maintain the basic safety rules.

 

Most six-year-olds would not go into the dark with this man
so a bigger problem than rape for this woman and a greater

shame for her seems to be her stupidity and naivety.

 

And for this Asian man a drunken woman who agrees to walk

with him can be equal to agreeing for boom boom.

 

I am an advocate of giving passports to people only after they

passing the tests because some are so stupid that they

should not travel unattended.

[mogandave]

I am talking about the culture of victim blaming. 
 
As you know. 

Why not just answer the question?

You’ve called the suspect rapist scum repeatedly without knowing hardly any of the facts.

You’re nothing if not well programmed...

[Bluespunk]

8 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I quite agree....  the victim cannot be blamed for the behavior of scum.... 

 

However, the argument I present it that people are responsible for their own safety, when this responsibility is neglected the risks they expose themselves to increases and in some cases the consequences can be extreme. 

 

 

 

The argument that someone can be judged as having taken a risk and is therefore somewhat responsible for what happens to them, is one used by victim blamers. 

 

I am not saying you are doing this, clearly you are not. 

 

However, there are those who will and it is not one I accept when a sexual assault or rape happens.

 

No matter what the victim did or didn’t do, rape occurs because a rapist decides to rape, not because of what the victim did. 

[Bluespunk]

16 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Why not just answer the question?

You’ve called the suspect rapist scum repeatedly without knowing hardly any of the facts.

You’re nothing if not well programmed...

 

I’ve called the man wanted by police on a rape charge scum have I?

 

I’ll check my posts. 

 

I’ll get back to you real soon on that. 

 

I’ve called rapists scum and filth. 

 

That is because that is what they are. 

 

Edit

I've checked and i have not done so today. 

 

Let me go back further. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by Bluespunk

[mogandave]

What is sad is that this idea that people are victims and as such bear no responsibility for their actions is getting more and more common. It’s dangerous, and certainly does not help the victims.

Giving people the idea that they can get hammered and wander around alone in the middle of the night and when something happens it’s no fault of their own is bone-headed. When something bad happens, does pointing a finger really help?

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

What is sad is that this idea that people are victims and as such bear no responsibility for their actions is getting more and more common. It’s dangerous, and certainly does not help the victims.

Giving people the idea that they can get hammered and wander around alone in the middle of the night and when something happens it’s no fault of their own is bone-headed. When something bad happens, does pointing a finger really help?

I can assure you that people who have children and love them, teach them responsibility since a very early age.

I would bet that it would be a different tune from bluespunk if he had a daughter.

[mogandave]

I’ve called the man wanted by police on a rape charge scum have I?
 
I’ll check my posts. 
 
I’ll get back to you real soon on that. 
 
I’ve called rapists scum and filth. 
 
That is because that is what they are. 

Well everyone has been clear all along that rapists are filthy scum.

What we’re not all clear on it that it’s a good idea to give women the idea that they can get sh*t-faced drunk and wander off in the middle of the night with a strange man and think everything will be okay.

Isn’t drunk in public a crime?

[Bluespunk]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Well everyone has been clear all along that rapists are filthy scum.

What we’re not all clear on it that it’s a good idea to give women the idea that they can get sh*t-faced drunk and wander off in the middle of the night with a strange man and think everything will be okay.

Isn’t drunk in public a crime?

 

It could be, still doesn’t make the victim, in any way, shape or form, responsible for the rapists decision to rape. 

[mogandave]

It could be, still doesn’t make the victim, in any way, shape or form, responsible for the rapists decision to rape. 

Polly wanna Cracker?

[Bluespunk]

6 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Polly wanna Cracker?

 

 

 

[fruitman]

On 12/6/2018 at 7:20 AM, mogandave said:

In any event, if the odds were 1 in 100 that I would get beat up on the way home from the bar, I would quit going.

I would buy a wig, faux moustache, and a small gun but still go to the bar...

[metisdead]

If the repetitive bickering does not stop, suspensions will be issued. 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

The argument that someone can be judged as having taken a risk and is therefore somewhat responsible for what happens to them, is one used by victim blamers. 

 

I am not saying you are doing this, clearly you are not. 

 

However, there are those who will and it is not one I accept when a sexual assault or rape happens.

 

No matter what the victim did or didn’t do, rape occurs because a rapist decides to rape, not because of what the victim did. 

 

It certainly is a delicate issue....  

 

…..the point I would like to make is that I would not be comfortable with my daughter, Wife, friends etc placing themselves in a situation of elevated risk, either through inebriation, location, timing etc.... 

 

Thus, if the guise of no-responsibility were to be true, you, I, everyone would have no issues leaving daughters, wives, friends, alone at night, drunk in a dark alleyway or a myriad of other situations... 

 

But, being realists, as intelligent beings capable of making a decision, that would be just be irresponsible of us.

 

There is a degree of responsibility at play…. Quite different from blame.

 

 

[Bluespunk]

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It certainly is a delicate issue....  

 

…..the point I would like to make is that I would not be comfortable with my daughter, Wife, friends etc placing themselves in a situation of elevated risk, either through inebriation, location, timing etc.... 

 

Thus, if the guise of no-responsibility were to be true, you, I, everyone would have no issues leaving daughters, wives, friends, alone at night, drunk in a dark alleyway or a myriad of other situations... 

 

But, being realists, as intelligent beings capable of making a decision, that would be just be irresponsible of us.

 

There is a degree of responsibility at play…. Quite different from blame.

 

 

The victims as I have repeatedly said, are not responsible for the actions of rapists. 

 

The only reason rape happens is because rapists choose to rape. 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The victims as I have repeatedly said, are not responsible for the actions of rapists. 

 

The only reason rape happens is because rapists choose to rape. 

 

But the victims are responsible for placing themselves in a situation of elevated risk beyond conventional socially acceptable norms.... 

 

We're not talking about a rapist kidnapping a girl from the centre of a crowded shopping mall.....  this is a girl, extremely drunk and alone in an alleyway.... Her friends may also carry some of the responsibility. If I were the victims friend and out with her that evening, I would feel responsible for what happened.

 

IF she were to jump into the road and get hit by a car, or fall and smash her face or a long list of many situations she could find herself in, she is ultimately responsible for this, responsible for her actions and safety....

 

We're all aware criminal scum are around us and that we should never give criminals any opportunity... be it scam artists, burglars, street thieves, sexual predators.... 

 

Rapists are opportunists...  in failing to be responsible for her own safety this girl gave a rapist an opportunity.... 

 

The Rapist chose to rape and of course the victim is not responsible for his choice and actions, but the poor victim is responsible for her actions leading up to this placing herself at risk.... she found herself at risk because she was irresponsible....   

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Nevertheless, my sister wished to go…  She didn’t tell me until after they’d passed and were out of sight, but one of the guys in a group had grabbed her breast as we passed them (luckily I didn’t see it – lucky for me, there was a group of them, I would’ve probably ended up badly beaten).

I've been grabbed by ladyboys, it isn't a big deal.

But for some reason a white woman getting grabbed is viewed as a big deal.

Most non-white women wouldn't fret about it.

 

I have been grabbed in the crotch in NEP by ladyboys... I don't like it, but its partially my fault for placing myself in that situation...

 

Most non-white women I know would go ballistic if 'groped' in any situation.... 

My sister didn't like it, but smartly chose to ignore it given our surroundings, situation and numbers at the time. 

 

It is of course a big deal, but not one with a lasting effect if you can mentally compartmentalise and put it doing to just being in the wrong place...  the example was used to identify how we too were responsible for being in that area, at that time with the full knowledge the there was potential for something like this to occur...