UK PM May's government loses contempt vote over Brexit legal advice

[webfact]

UK PM May's government loses contempt vote over Brexit legal advice

By Kylie MacLellan

 

Britain's Prime Minister Theresa May leaves 10 Downing Street, London, Britain, December 4, 2018. REUTERS/Henry Nicholls

 

LONDON (Reuters) - British Prime Minister Theresa May's government was found in contempt of parliament on Tuesday for refusing to release its full legal advice on Brexit, underlining the depth of opposition among lawmakers to her deal on leaving the European Union.

 

The row threatened to overshadow the start of five days of debate in parliament on May's Brexit deal ahead of a crucial vote on Dec. 11, when lawmakers will be asked to approve it.

 

Opposition parties and the small Northern Irish party that props up May's minority government are furious that it only provided an outline of the legal basis for its Brexit deal after parliament voted to be given the full advice.

 

They put forward a motion, which was backed by 311-293 in a vote on Tuesday, that found ministers in contempt of parliament and ordered the immediate publication of the advice.

 

"Today's finding of contempt is a badge of shame for this government. It is of huge constitutional and political significance," Keir Starmer, the opposition Labour Party's Brexit spokesman, said after the vote. "Never before has the House of Commons found ministers in contempt of parliament."

 

The sanctions ultimately available include suspending a lawmaker, most likely Attorney General Geoffrey Cox. It was not clear whether the opposition parties would now push for that.

 

Such punishment is usually reserved for backbench lawmakers guilty of individual wrongdoing. In reality, Tuesday's vote was about putting pressure on a weakened government.

 

Catherine Haddon, senior fellow at the Institute for Government, said the opposition wanted to use "every opportunity they have to show the instability of the government".

 

The small Northern Irish party, the Democratic Unionists, which props up May's minority government, joined opposition parties in voting against the government on the contempt issue.

 

So many lawmakers - from May's own Conservatives as well as from the opposition parties - have spoken out against the deal that the odds look stacked against her winning the Dec. 11 vote.

 

Haddon said the contempt motion was a "show of force" which could foreshadow both the final vote on the deal and the various amendments lawmakers are trying to attach to it.

 

Cox gave parliament an outline of his legal advice to the government on Monday.

 

Andrea Leadsom, Leader of the House of Commons, said on Tuesday that this had been a "full and frank exposition", and that releasing the full advice would set a dangerous precedent.

 

She said the government, which had sought to slow down the process by referring the issue to parliament's Committee of Privileges, had fulfilled the spirit of the order to publish.

 

The government said after the vote that it would now publish the full advice.

 

(Additional reporting by Elizabeth Piper and William James; editing by Guy Faulconbridge and Gareth Jones)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-12-05

[Chomper Higgot]

From the very start of Brexit the Government have repeatedly attempted to govern by executive order.

 

’Enemies of the people’ forced the Government to place Brexit before Parliament, the attempt to assume ‘Henry the Eighth powers’, Government ministers have repeatedly lied and hidden truths from Parliament and in this latest abuse Government has been found in contempt hidding legal advice from Parliament.

 

‘The sovereignty of the British Parliament’ you say?!

 

Time to wake up and realize who the real ‘enemies of the people’ are.

[NanLaew]

46 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

From the very start of Brexit the Government have repeatedly attempted to govern by executive order.

 

’Enemies of the people’ forced the Government to place Brexit before Parliament, the attempt to assume ‘Henry the Eighth powers’, Government ministers have repeatedly lied and hidden truths from Parliament and in this latest abuse Government has been found in contempt hidding legal advice from Parliament.

 

‘The sovereignty of the British Parliament’ you say?!

 

Time to wake up and realize who the real ‘enemies of the people’ are.

From the very start, the PM has been batting on a sticky wicket, I am surprised that May and her dwindling band of sycophants, including those shady buggers, horse-trading under a "confidence and supply" mandate have gotten this far.

 

We are all aware of the ramifications of this parliamentary wool-pulling exercise and I reckon May's remaining days in office are now seriously under threat. Then the snap election and the likelihood of replacing one Grinch with another, just in time for Christmas? No... I don't think ANYONE wants that but keep in mind that our politicians don't really give a fig about what ANYONE wants.

 

But beyond all this hair-on-fire rhetoric, what do we want to see as the ultimate goal here? A renegotiated Brexit agreement that holds the EU's feet to some hypothetical fire? Or a no-deal exit or "extreme Brexit" as the BoE's badly chosen leader chose to arbitrarily think out loud... again. Or a second 'I've changed my mind' referendum?

 

Keep in mind that the British voters, myself included, have been mostly sleep-walking through the last 2 and half years of rinse-and-repeat and were quite happy just to let the government bureaucrats, technocrats and associated hangers-on from Westminster and Brussels "just get on with it" with regard to leaving the EU. Now and only now do some see that there has been some pretty open duplicity and circular talking from No 10? The only parallels I can draw is a similar and as yet un-reported lack of care and attention being paid by the electorate of the EU member countries to the 'deal' that THEIR elected leaders are selling them.

 

Anyway, I reckon the DUP takes the biscuit for duplicity.

[marko kok prong]

Why the hell do they persist in calling MP's lawmakers.

[Enoon]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

But beyond all this hair-on-fire rhetoric, what do we want to see as the ultimate goal here?

 

Vote of No-Confidence followed by General Election.

 

EU will (at least) suspend departure process until the UK gets its house in order.

 

 

[stag4]

Good news.

Hopefully this will hasten Mays downfall and we will get a PM who believes in Brexit and tells the EU dictators that their deal is unacceptable.

Out on the 29th March, no 39 Billion pounds unless they come up with an acceptable free trade deal.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, NanLaew said:

From the very start, the PM has been batting on a sticky wicket, I am surprised that May and her dwindling band of sycophants, including those shady buggers, horse-trading under a "confidence and supply" mandate have gotten this far.

 

We are all aware of the ramifications of this parliamentary wool-pulling exercise and I reckon May's remaining days in office are now seriously under threat. Then the snap election and the likelihood of replacing one Grinch with another, just in time for Christmas? No... I don't think ANYONE wants that but keep in mind that our politicians don't really give a fig about what ANYONE wants.

 

But beyond all this hair-on-fire rhetoric, what do we want to see as the ultimate goal here? A renegotiated Brexit agreement that holds the EU's feet to some hypothetical fire? Or a no-deal exit or "extreme Brexit" as the BoE's badly chosen leader chose to arbitrarily think out loud... again. Or a second 'I've changed my mind' referendum?

 

Keep in mind that the British voters, myself included, have been mostly sleep-walking through the last 2 and half years of rinse-and-repeat and were quite happy just to let the government bureaucrats, technocrats and associated hangers-on from Westminster and Brussels "just get on with it" with regard to leaving the EU. Now and only now do some see that there has been some pretty open duplicity and circular talking from No 10? The only parallels I can draw is a similar and as yet un-reported lack of care and attention being paid by the electorate of the EU member countries to the 'deal' that THEIR elected leaders are selling them.

 

Anyway, I reckon the DUP takes the biscuit for duplicity.

The reason Brexit is a crock has nothing to do with the Government or the EU and everything to do with the fact the whole idea was founded on lies and misinformation.

 

From conception to execution a crock of brown smelly stuff.

 

BRexiteers voted for this crock, Brexiteers and nobody else own it.

 

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The reason Brexit is a crock has nothing to do with the Government or the EU and everything to do with the fact the whole idea was founded on lies and misinformation.

 

From conception to execution a crock of brown smelly stuff.

 

BRexiteers voted for this crock, Brexiteers and nobody else own it.

 

Spin it as much as you like chomper, the majority of the British Electorate voted for brexit, I know you are not big on democrasy, what suits chomp, but I agree with you on the lies.

 

 

[freebyrd]

Perhaps they should show MP's this?

[evadgib]

28 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The reason Brexit is a crock has nothing to do with the Government or the EU and everything to do with the fact the whole idea was founded on lies and misinformation.

 

From conception to execution a crock of brown smelly stuff.

 

BRexiteers voted for this crock, Brexiteers and nobody else own it.

 

Cameron was the architect was he not? His dereliction lead to this ballsup and has rendered UK a laughing stock not seen since the 3 day week!

We need a Maggie, FAST!

[Chomper Higgot]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

Spin it as much as you like chomper, the majority of the British Electorate voted for brexit, I know you are not big on democrasy, what suits chomp, but I agree with you on the lies.

 

 

17 million suckers.

 

I’m all for democracy- it did not come to a shuddering halt on the morning of the referendum result.

 

 

[vogie]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

17 million suckers.

 

I’m all for democracy- it did not come to a shuddering halt on the morning of the referendum result.

 

 

Do you know how insulting you are by calling over half the population of the UK "suckers" Your posting skills are lacking somewhat.

 

You are not for democracy, that is just it, over half of the UK voted to leave, that has not happened and may not happen, who knows. Before you send your next insult, sit back for 10 minutes and think of what democracy actually means. 

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you know how insulting you are by calling over half the population of the UK "suckers" Your posting skills are lacking somewhat.

 

You are not for democracy, that is just it, over half of the UK voted to leave, that has not happened and may not happen, who knows. Before you send your next insult, sit back for 10 minutes and think of what democracy actually means. 

We have representative democracy. It is a pity that may, including MPs, do not understand that.

 

Cameron's leaflet was indeed a lie or at least an incorrect statement. he did not have the ability to bind parliament.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We have representative democracy. It is a pity that may, including MPs, do not understand that.

 

Cameron's leaflet was indeed a lie or at least an incorrect statement. he did not have the ability to bind parliament.

It would seem the House of Commons disagrees with you. This is a paragraph from the petition that was signed againgst a second referendum, it came in my email today, if I can find a way to link it to TV I will. It does make interesting reading.

 

"Stop possible second referendum on E.U. membership. There is a growing band of people that want to reverse the result of the democratic vote of this country to leave the European Union and are calling for a second referendum. This is mainly by the people that lost the vote two years ago and cannot accept the democratic vote of the majority decision. Although not legally binding the referendum on whether we stay or leave the EU carried out on the 23rd June 2016 was the clearest indication of the will of the electorate. At that time our Prime Minister David Cameron assured us that the result of the referendum would be carried out. We must ensure the democracy rules”.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Spin it as much as you like chomper, the majority of the British Electorate voted for brexit, I know you are not big on democrasy, what suits chomp, but I agree with you on the lies.

 

 

 

The majority, by a very small margin, of those that voted, chose to vote for Brexit in what was legally established as an advisory referendum.

 

A crock of <deleted>, created by Cameron and his cronies. And rather than acknowledging and addressing that, the politicians will as usual make it a worse, bigger and fouler crock of <deleted>. After all, they will still be well off, with nice pensions,  no enforced retirement, and living the good life. And screw the people and country they're supposed to serve.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

It would seem the House of Commons disagrees with you. This is a paragraph from the petition that was signed againgst a second referendum, it came in my email today, if I can find a way to link it to TV I will. It does make interesting reading.

 

"Stop possible second referendum on E.U. membership. There is a growing band of people that want to reverse the result of the democratic vote of this country to leave the European Union and are calling for a second referendum. This is mainly by the people that lost the vote two years ago and cannot accept the democratic vote of the majority decision. Although not legally binding the referendum on whether we stay or leave the EU carried out on the 23rd June 2016 was the clearest indication of the will of the electorate. At that time our Prime Minister David Cameron assured us that the result of the referendum would be carried out. We must ensure the democracy rules”.

 

Correct. Not legally binding, established in law as an advisory referendum by the liar and coward Cameron who had no authority, constitutionally to decide otherwise. He had a majority government and could have put it to parliament. But he was too cowardly. So he did a runner and May gleefully picked up the mantle thinking she could cleverly misuse the Royal Prerogative to by-pass Parliament and simply put something in place that suited her and her then cabinet cronies. Just like her decision to call a snap election, she was wrong.

 

Politicians make and break promises as often as a whore's draws go up and down! Cameron's assurance is as worthless as any other politician's. And trying to hold this up as some great democratic rule tester is a naive, childish, ignorant attempt to stop people thinking otherwise and demand that real representative democracy in accordance with the constitution is carried out.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The majority, by a very small margin, of those that voted, chose to vote for Brexit in what was legally established as an advisory referendum.

 

A crock of <deleted>, created by Cameron and his cronies. And rather than acknowledging and addressing that, the politicians will as usual make it a worse, bigger and fouler crock of <deleted>. After all, they will still be well off, with nice pensions,  no enforced retirement, and living the good life. And screw the people and country they're supposed to serve.

The majority 1,300,000 is still quite a sizable margin, I wouldn't like to have to feed them for a day.

 

It was an advisory referendum that was going to be enacted on, you know this, you are intelligent,  why do we have to keep telling the remainers. We have proof, but you will have seen it all before.

 

Of course they will be ok with their big fat pensions, but how that alters the fact that I and others don't want the UK to lose its identity, and be swallowed up by the EU is neither here nor there.

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Correct. Not legally binding, established in law as an advisory referendum by the liar and coward Cameron who had no authority, constitutionally to decide otherwise. He had a majority government and could have put it to parliament. But he was too cowardly. So he did a runner and May gleefully picked up the mantle thinking she could cleverly misuse the Royal Prerogative to by-pass Parliament and simply put something in place that suited her and her then cabinet cronies. Just like her decision to call a snap election, she was wrong.

 

Politicians make and break promises as often as a whore's draws go up and down! Cameron's assurance is as worthless as any other politician's. And trying to hold this up as some great democratic rule tester is a naive, childish, ignorant attempt to stop people thinking otherwise and demand that real representative democracy in accordance with the constitution is carried out.

So you don't agree with what the majority of the UK voted for, you are entitled to your opinion as others to theirs. The PMs assurance may be worthless, but it's the best we've got.

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

The majority 1,300,000 is still quite a sizable margin, I wouldn't like to have to feed them for a day.

 

It was an advisory referendum that was going to be enacted on, you know this, you are intelligent,  why do we have to keep telling the remainers. We have proof, but you will have seen it all before.

 

Of course they will be ok with their big fat pensions, but how that alters the fact that I and others don't want the UK to lose its identity, and be swallowed up by the EU is neither here nor there.

 

52 to 48% - hardly a resounding majority! Remember Farage saying if the result was close, as he expected to loose, then it was "unfinished business". Kept his gob shut since.

 

Cameron, with no authority, said he'd act on it. Never disclosed how he intended to though as he thought he'd get the result he wanted.  Just because Cameron said so means zilch. 

 

Politicians break promises and pledges and reverse decisions regularly, ask Mrs. May. Why Brexiters insist on pretending this is a legally binding, once in a life time, never to be questioned, decision speaks volumes of their attitude towards democracy and the British constitution. 

 

The UK wouldn't have been swallowed up by the EU with the membership terms we had. That's just another fantasy spread among many.

[freebyrd]

Beats me why you bods are getting so hot under the collar?

 

My brother who lives in the UK and will do so until he pops his clogs, voted stay, his wife voted leave. I can fully understand them wanting a say in their own future and respect their opposing views.

 

If you left the UK to live in Thailand and make a new life for yourself, why is what happens in the old country in your worry orbit anymore?

[Baerboxer]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

So you don't agree with what the majority of the UK voted for, you are entitled to your opinion as others to theirs. The PMs assurance may be worthless, but it's the best we've got.

 

The UK public were asked to vote on an advisory referendum and fully have the right, in a constitutional democracy to expect the result to be debated, fully and openly in public and then be voted on. 

 

That's one of the benefits of a representative democracy - it is supposed to act as a guard against massive decisions being taken, on small differentials, without all the facts being known and with lies being spread.

 

I don't agree with bypassing the British constitution and parliamentary process, or allowing proven lying by politicians to coerce and con people.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

52 to 48% - hardly a resounding majority! Remember Farage saying if the result was close, as he expected to loose, then it was "unfinished business". Kept his gob shut since.

 

Cameron, with no authority, said he'd act on it. Never disclosed how he intended to though as he thought he'd get the result he wanted.  Just because Cameron said so means zilch. 

 

Politicians break promises and pledges and reverse decisions regularly, ask Mrs. May. Why Brexiters insist on pretending this is a legally binding, once in a life time, never to be questioned, decision speaks volumes of their attitude towards democracy and the British constitution. 

 

The UK wouldn't have been swallowed up by the EU with the membership terms we had. That's just another fantasy spread among many.

According to the rules of the referendum, it stated 50% ± 1. And as for the rest of your post vis a vis, Farage, Cameron et al, it has all been covered before, and getting quite monotenous really, forget the red bus?????

I am truly sorry you cannot accept democracy, but the way its going it maybe a result for the remainers anyway, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, freebyrd said:

Beats me why you bods are getting so hot under the collar?

 

My brother who lives in the UK and will do so until he pops his clogs, voted stay, his wife voted leave. I can fully understand them wanting a say in their own future and respect their opposing views.

 

If you left the UK to live in Thailand and make a new life for yourself, why is what happens in the old country in your worry orbit anymore?

 

Bewildering. But that sort of apathy explains why some democracies make it a legal obligation to vote.

 

But hey ho, when some future British government scraps the tax allowance for expats, stops your national pension, imposes punitive taxation levels for selling you house based on increased land values, and disenfranchises you, you'll be quite happy because you're living somewhere else!

[PETERTHEEATER]

........mandate have gotten this far..........

 

GOT this far, please, we're British!

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The UK public were asked to vote on an advisory referendum and fully have the right, in a constitutional democracy to expect the result to be debated, fully and openly in public and then be voted on. 

 

That's one of the benefits of a representative democracy - it is supposed to act as a guard against massive decisions being taken, on small differentials, without all the facts being known and with lies being spread.

 

I don't agree with bypassing the British constitution and parliamentary process, or allowing proven lying by politicians to coerce and con people.

You are going around in circles, why are you bringing "advisory" up again, I have gave you the explanation if you don't like it I'm hardly likely to change my stance just to make you happy. Accept the democracy vote and live a happy life.

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

British Prime Minister Theresa May's government was found in contempt of parliament on Tuesday for refusing to release its full legal advice on Brexit

Big deal.

The Commons leader Andrea Leadsom said the government would comply and publish the advice in full on Wednesday.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/04/mps-demand-for-brexit-legal-advice-too-vague-says-geoffrey-cox

I watched the vote live and immediately after the results were announced in parliament, Andrea stood and said the advice will be published, seemingly reading from a prepared script.

 

[Baerboxer]

Just now, vogie said:

According to the rules of the referendum, it stated 50% ± 1. And as for the rest of your post vis a vis, Farage, Cameron et al, it has all been covered before, and getting quite monotenous really, forget the red bus?????

I am truly sorry you cannot accept democracy, but the way its going it maybe a result for the remainers anyway, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

 

It's not me that can't accept democracy! It's you that doesn't want to understand, or deny, the way British representative democracy actually works.

 

But you can ignore all that and cling to the vague promise from Cameron that he, and he buggered off very quickly, would enact the result of his advisory referendum, although it was a meaningless statement as he actually couldn't just do that. And you can pretend that this was a one off, never to be repeated, never to be challenged or reversed decision, even though the referendum never mentioned this. 

 

This whole crock of crap was about Cameron trying to get control of anti EU Tories and spike the growth in UKIP. No more no less. He screwed it up and quit.

 

Where is the referendum legislation does it specifically state that the result would be decided, and enacted, based on 50% plus or minus 1? I'd be grateful if you could tell me which section that's in.

 

 

[freebyrd]

12 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Bewildering. But that sort of apathy explains why some democracies make it a legal obligation to vote.

 

But hey ho, when some future British government scraps the tax allowance for expats, stops your national pension, imposes punitive taxation levels for selling you house based on increased land values, and disenfranchises you, you'll be quite happy because you're living somewhere else!

Bewildering? Apathy? From your comments it seems like you want the best of both worlds. In the decades I've been around I've learned to accept the inevitable. I burned my bridges in the UK long ago, I have no ties whatsoever to the UK, NONE, and even if they do stop all of the things you've listed, are you sitting on your perch in Thailand going to be able to change anything?

 

Yes I get pensions and while I'll of course be infuriated if the rug is pulled from under me, I've been knocked down and got up again more times than I can remember and will continue to do so. I'm not a retiree, I work, in fact I'm at my desk at the moment. I was raised to make my own way in life so I'l be working until I kick off, not relying on pensions to put food in my mouth.

 

If you are so passionate about this, why did you leave the UK in the first place?

[lamyai3]

29 minutes ago, freebyrd said:

If you left the UK to live in Thailand and make a new life for yourself, why is what happens in the old country in your worry orbit anymore?

UK income or pensions for one thing. Pound to baht exchange rate is down about 25% since the referendum and only seems to be heading lower. 

[freebyrd]

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

UK income or pensions for one thing. Pound to baht exchange rate is down about 25% since the referendum and only seems to be heading lower. 

And you think I'm not aware of that?! Even if it goes to £1 = $1, what can you or I do about it?

 

As I said to another critic, I didn't come to SE Asia to chase women and live the lazy life in Pattaya or other places, I work, have done for 25 years, I'm at my office now, and will continue to do so until I'm not capable anymore or croak. Worrying about things that you can't control will only serve to damage your health.