UK PM May's government loses contempt vote over Brexit legal advice

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, rixalex said:

 

We all know the levers and throttles arguments is total bunkum. At the end of the day an open door is an open door. You either control immigrants before they come in, or you don't control them at all. Doing so is like trying to herd cats, and the idea that you can simply say cheerio to any immigrant who isn't pulling his or her weight is an utter joke, to anyone who has followed a few recent deportation cases.


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I suggest you stop shooting from the hip and listen to what others have to say

 

1) We can control non EU immigration down to zero. Why don't we?

 

2) There are many levers to help us control EU immigration. Why don't we?

 

We use two levers to great effect: A weak pound and nastiness to foreigners

 

How dare you say my view is bunkum. I won't insult you except to say you wear the Brexit badge on you beret nicely ????

[bristolboy]

Just now, rixalex said:

I'd skip straight to the section on denial as that seems to be what you are suffering from.

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Since no one has accused me of anything on this thread, I would have to be actively hallucinating to be in denial. Whereas you made quite personal accusations not at me but at Ollinki. Are you confused much?

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, rixalex said:

 

Re "most of immigration is non EU now".

Yes, but unlike EU immigration, all non EU immigration is tested and has to prove reasons for their visit. If they are visiting for work - the majority are not - they have to obtain a work visa, have to show things like a letter from employer, qualifications, finances. They can't simply come on a whim.

On the other hand, the majority of EU immigrants do come to Britain to work and unlike non EU immigrants, they can simply walk into the country and immediately enter the workforce.

It's an unfair system, both to immigrants who get discriminated against dependant on whether they were born inside or outside the EU, and it's unfair to the British communities who suddenly find themselves living next to people whose history is totally unknown.

On your point about being more comfortable with Europeans than Asians or Africans, that's a personal matter for you about where you choose to live and what circles you travel in, but in terms of that sort of backward outdated attitude playing any role in Britain's immigration policy, I find the idea abhorrent in the extreme.

For the remainers adamant that there is no bigotry on their side of the fence, take note.


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I freely admit to being an anti Muslim bigot. But I am no xenophobe. I dislike British Muslims the same as any other Muslims.

 

You argue that most non EU immigrants are not coming to work. What the hell are they coming here for? The weather? Immigration does not include holidaymakers! If we are testing these people as you claim it isn't an A level now is it? 

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

Unfortunately that is something that will not be acknowledged until it is too late. Many parts of the UK benefited significantly from EU funding. Do people really believe that the UK government will throw money in the same direction, passing the buck to local councils is the order of the day.

Successive governments have a dismal track record in wasting taxpayers money and pushing the national debt to the limits. Why should brexit make any difference. Better management and the EU would never have become a problem in the first place.

 

Public and private sector organisations in the UK receive funding from the EU through various channels – the UK received a total of €6.3 billion (about £5.5 billion) in 2017. The majority of EU funding is administered in partnership with national and regional authorities in Member States, though a share of it is directly administered by the European Commission.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7847

May I just mention Cornwall?

 

Utter clots! They've had huge support from the EU and now expect a post Brexit UK government to do the same ????

 

You should have seen Question Time from Penzance!

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Almost a fifth of EU doctors have made plans to leave UK following Brexit vote

 

A BMA survey of EEA (European Economic Area) doctors working in the UK has found that almost half are considering leaving following the EU referendum result, with almost one in five having already made solid plans to relocate elsewhere.

There are approximately 12,000 EEA doctors working in the NHS in England – 7.7 per cent of the UK medical workforce – with many more working in public health and academic medicine¹. Recruiting from Europe has been vital in dealing with staff shortages in UK health services, ensuring the NHS can provide high-quality, reliable and safe patient care.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2017/november/almost-a-fifth-of-eu-doctors-have-made-plans-to-leave-uk-following-brexit-vote

so what?

start recruiting then

 

plenty of nurse staff from PI

physicians? try Russia and Ukra and Kazak

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Almost a fifth of EU doctors have made plans to leave UK following Brexit vote

 

A BMA survey of EEA (European Economic Area) doctors working in the UK has found that almost half are considering leaving following the EU referendum result, with almost one in five having already made solid plans to relocate elsewhere.

There are approximately 12,000 EEA doctors working in the NHS in England – 7.7 per cent of the UK medical workforce – with many more working in public health and academic medicine¹. Recruiting from Europe has been vital in dealing with staff shortages in UK health services, ensuring the NHS can provide high-quality, reliable and safe patient care.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2017/november/almost-a-fifth-of-eu-doctors-have-made-plans-to-leave-uk-following-brexit-vote

so what?

start recruiting then

 

plenty of nurse staff from PI

physicians? try Russia and Ukra and Kazak

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I suggest you stop shooting from the hip and listen to what others have to say

 

1) We can control non EU immigration down to zero. Why don't we?

 

2) There are many levers to help us control EU immigration. Why don't we?

 

We use two levers to great effect: A weak pound and nastiness to foreigners

 

How dare you say my view is bunkum. I won't insult you except to say you wear the Brexit badge on you beret nicely ????

don't feel too off 'cause of bunkum

I once had a girlfriend (scouser)  named Bunkum, she was quite nice

 

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

You're right, it's not a major issue.

 

Actually it's not an issue at all. Brits will continue to be able to travel, work and retire in EU countries, even with the "hardest" of Brexits.

 

This forum is called Thai Visa - it is aimed at ex-pats living and working in Thailand. Thailand is't in the EU ???? But it doesn't stop expats living, working and retiring here.

 

The whole Brexit "debate" boils down to the simple fact that disgruntled remainers are trying to subvert democracy, led by the arch Remainer, Teresa May.

 

These fanatics are creating huge damage to British democracy and the fabric of society.

 

 

Nope. Brexit is a foolish, moronic even, idea. ALL sensible people accept the veracity of this. The problem is that a majority declared their wish to leave. However, we have representative democracy and parliament is indeed sovereign. MPs are obliged to consider what is best for their constituents and their country. That may not be what their constituents wish for. We will not have capital punishment or free beer.

 

As far as post Brexit Brits retaing the right to live, work and retire anywhere across the EU? Are you mad?

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

 

As far as post Brexit Brits retaining the right to live, work and retire anywhere across the EU? Are you mad?

It must be right -  TM said this.....

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

To follow up on this point, has ANYONE changed their mind as a result of the various threads on this forum?  i.e. social media.

 

Admittedly, I've changed my mind somewhat in so far as I originally hoped that the brexit vote would lead to the eu reforming itself, and thereby providing a good reason for voters to change their minds.

 

But they preferred to continue with the same, old, tired lines - no intention of any reform...☹️

 

The uk govt. acquiescing to every eu demand hasn't helped.... and consequently, I've turned into a brexiteer.  Edit - and it has nothing to do with 'social media' - purely a result of the eu and uk govt.'s actions!

My stance has hardened

 

Which makes a change

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, tebee said:

Most of non-EU immigration is for family reunion, rather than for the purposes of work  

Well that's a fat lot of good for the economy 

[rixalex]

Uncontrolled immigration aka Europeans who take the jobs and don't work at all at the sametime. 
 
If you listen interviews of the EU people who currently reside in UK, it's quite clear that they have heard the underlying message loud and clear. Many of them have already left, so congratulations, you got what you wanted and you haven't even brexited yet. 
 
Nobody can blame them. Who would want to live in such hostile environment what UK has become. 

No. Uncontrolled immigration aka citizens of the EU undergoing none of the vetting or testing non EU immigrants are subjected to.

All leavers are asking for is that ALL immigrants to be treated equally. Is that really asking so much?

EU is supposed to pride itself on being liberal, free and fair. Obviously those liberal values aren't meant for those outside the club.

As for EU people residing in Britain feeling unwelcome, well maybe it's people like you who continue to twist, distort, misrepresent and lie what it is that leavers have been saying. For example, in the above you state: many have them have left so you got what you wanted. This is a flat out lie. I have never said that I want EU people to leave and nor do I. Please can you stop lying.

I know it's taking a toll on the ego of the EU and its supporters that some people no longer want to be a part of it but for goodness sake, stop taking it so personally.



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[Grouse]

6 hours ago, oilinki said:

I have. Prior brexit I had very little knowledge about British politics and media. Well, I watched BBC every now and them, but the exposure how British people really talk and think was a huge surprise to me.

 

Also my British friends, with whom I have interacted, were mainly well educated professionals. I lived in an information bubble. 

 

As time passed, I have (in a way unfortunately) burst my pink bubble about UK and British people. The deep hatred towards EU and Europeans was something I didn't expect and wasn't aware of. It's done now.

 

Previously I wished UK to stay with our EU. Now, not anymore. I no longer wish UK to be part of our union. 

 

So, change of mind is possible. It's not always to the better, but possible nevertheless. 

Pity them, for they know not what they do ????

[tebee]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Well that's a fat lot of good for the economy 

Well it's not really to be unexpected - if you bring in skilled labour they will probably be older  with wives and maybe children .

 

Also there used to be a good trade in restaurant owner and others sending back daughters to their country of origin to get married. They bring back their new spouse, followed by his parents, unmarried sisters, all of which can come as he is supporting them. 

 

Can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like 60-70% of non-EU immigration was family if you exclude students.

[tebee]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

My stance has hardened

 

Which makes a change

Even if you never change anyone's mind you still have to say your piece

 

[rixalex]

I suggest you stop shooting from the hip and listen to what others have to say
 
1) We can control non EU immigration down to zero. Why don't we?
 
2) There are many levers to help us control EU immigration. Why don't we?
 
We use two levers to great effect: A weak pound and nastiness to foreigners
 
How dare you say my view is bunkum. I won't insult you except to say you wear the Brexit badge on you beret nicely [emoji4]

1) Bringing it down to zero would be totally immoral, not to mention stupid, that's why.

2) Partly the fault of the government. There are things that COULD be done. At the end of the day though, there is no getting away from the open door policy, that comes with being in the EU. I simply don't believe in it. I believe in properly controlled immigration, and by that i mean you check them before they come in, not after. It's really not that radical an idea you know.

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[Grouse]

6 hours ago, rixalex said:

 

Firstly, the hatred is towards the EU not Europeans. Britain is part of Europe and always will be. British people will always be European. The EU doesn't own Europe and nor do you. Sorry about that.

Secondly, as someone who expresses more hatred on this forum than most, who are you to judge others?

Do you realise how bitter and angry you have become?

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I think there is some Gestalt theory to my general liking of the EU. The sum is greater than the parts etc. I like being in a club of different nations with common values 

[rixalex]

Since no one has accused me of anything on this thread, I would have to be actively hallucinating to be in denial. Whereas you made quite personal accusations not at me but at Ollinki. Are you confused much?

Nothing personal about it. Ollinki's comments about Britain and British people are a matter of public record on this forum. If you haven't picked up on the resentment, bitterness and anger in many of his posts then it's either a reading comprehension issue or some sort of denial syndrome at play. See what your textbook says I guess.

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[Grouse]

6 hours ago, vogie said:

When you have no say how your subscriptions are being used it becomes a totalitarian golf club.

Right now we have a full say! Why give that up?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

so what?

start recruiting then

 

plenty of nurse staff from PI

physicians? try Russia and Ukra and Kazak

 

 

Educating a physician takes at least 5 years. Nurses takes probably 3 years. 

 

To create facilities, to hire educators, to find suitable people doesn't happen overnight. 

 

In 10 years, if the UK can produce well enough educated population, getting a lot more doctors might be possible. 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Hmmm.... odd that you fail to get your head around the meaning of a simple majority, yet try to lecture others on true meaning of words! ????????

Simple majority

 

Correct!

 

Got any pies?

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Educating a physician takes at least 5 years. Nurses takes probably 3 years. 

 

To create facilities, to hire educators, to find suitable people doesn't happen overnight. 

 

In 10 years, if the UK can produce well enough educated population, getting a lot more doctors might be possible. 

oilinki, consider an iso olut

 

PI is swamped in nurses

 

Russia, Ukraine, Kazakstan have lots and lots and lots and lots of physicians

 

just hank them in

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, rixalex said:

I'm aware of family visit visas where family members come to Britain for holiday. Not sure about the term family reunion. Just wondered whether it meant something different or something more specific.

Regarding "most", that's quite a vague term. The fact that you used it, I was just curious to know more of the numbers involved since you obviously DO or you wouldn't have said it.

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Holidays are excluded from immigration figures.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, rixalex said:

No. Uncontrolled immigration aka citizens of the EU undergoing none of the vetting or testing non EU immigrants are subjected to.

All leavers are asking for is that ALL immigrants to be treated equally. Is that really asking so much?

EU is supposed to pride itself on being liberal, free and fair. Obviously those liberal values aren't meant for those outside the club.

As for EU people residing in Britain feeling unwelcome, well maybe it's people like you who continue to twist, distort, misrepresent and lie what it is that leavers have been saying. For example, in the above you state: many have them have left so you got what you wanted. This is a flat out lie. I have never said that I want EU people to leave and nor do I. Please can you stop lying.

I know it's taking a toll on the ego of the EU and its supporters that some people no longer want to be a part of it but for goodness sake, stop taking it so personally.



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Are you able to understand the concept of personal pride and identity? 

 

I certainly have that, so does every other EU person. We all have personal pride and identity.

 

When we do not feel welcome to a country, which previously was a welcoming country and said (by the general people's voice) "Hey, welcome here and welcome to improve our country and be part of our society", that was welcoming message. 

 

Currently the message is "Go away, unless you make this much of money, you are no longer welcome here."

 

There is quite an change for people who are both professionals and want to have the freedom to change jobs. If you change your jobs and take few months vacation, you might not fulfill the bureaucratic requirements what UK requires. Then what? Get out of the country. 

 

Having a good life is having a freedom to live and make one's own decisions. Having a good life, no matter how professional one is, is not becoming a squirrel running rounds in  bureaucratic wheel what UK's post brexit rules require. 

 

Would I choose freedom in the EU or becoming a squirrel in UK? It's not really that difficult choice at all. 

 

[malagateddy]

Educating a physician takes at least 5 years. Nurses takes probably 3 years. 
 
To create facilities, to hire educators, to find suitable people doesn't happen overnight. 
 
In 10 years, if the UK can produce well enough educated population, getting a lot more doctors might be possible. 

It takes 5 years to train a Nurse and I think 10 years a GP if my memory serves me well.
However..there are many many doctors and nurses worldwide who would jump at the chance to work at their professions in the UK.
I know for a fact that NHS Scotland need many nurses, but the stupid snp would rather have agency nurses working in hospitals.


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[Guest]

8 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

oilinki, consider an iso olut

 

PI is swamped in nurses

 

Russia, Ukraine, Kazakstan have lots and lots and lots and lots of physicians

 

just hank them in

 

If I have counted correctly, by now you ow me about 7 large beers. I can't wait to finally meet you.. and then forget that we ever met! ????

 

Yes, UK can be swamped with people outside of EU. It's already happening if the released statistics are correct. 

 

I wonder should we start learning Tagalog as it's going to be one of the major languages in the UK in the future. 

 

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, vogie said:

But the committee are not fulfilling their duties if they don't treat members equally if they allow some members onto the golf course without paying a centime, if these non paying paying members decided to leave the golf club do you think they would fork out a leaving fee.

Brexiters just don't get it

 

Depressing

 

I was speaking with four young Poles the night before last. Great conversation. They are so happy to be in the EU and don't know people who support their government. Their sense of Freedom nearly reduced me to tears. If you don't understand that, you don't know their harrowing history.

 

Tusk's slogan was warm water in your taps!

[melvinmelvin]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

 

Would I choose freedom in the EU or becoming a squirrel in UK? It's not really that difficult choice at all. 

 

1

 

not sure really, squirrels run around in nice trees all day and eat nuts - no Dry Martini though

in EU, hardly tree climbing and nut eating - ample supply of Dry Martinis though

 

not that easy to choose

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

It takes 5 years to train a Nurse and I think 10 years a GP if my memory serves me well.
However..there are many many doctors and nurses worldwide who would jump at the chance to work at their professions in the UK.
I know for a fact that NHS Scotland need many nurses, but the stupid snp would rather have agency nurses working in hospitals.


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But of course there is many folks who are more than eager to work in the UK. I'm sure you are not going to be left without applicants. 

 

The other part is the abilities of these applicants, who come with shiny CV's and great recommendations. 

 

When you put them to a real life test, you'll notice that not all glitter is real gold. I did that once in a time and hired the grumpiest professional, which my HR department said NO! I didn't have to be sorry as he had already solved my puzzle.

 

When you hire people internationally, you hire them for what are their skills, not what they write to their CV's. 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, rixalex said:

No, not immigration, immigration, immigration. Uncontrolled immigration, uncontrolled immigration, uncontrolled immigration. What is it about that distinction that causes you to constantly ignore it?

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So why do we fail to control immigration??