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UK PM May's government loses contempt vote over Brexit legal advice

webfact

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rixalex Diamond Member

rixalex

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Grouse said:

Your government policy is to get sub 100,000 per annum. Why is non EU migration so high? You yourself admit that most of these culturally diverse people do not come to work! They are a drain on our services and are social benefit scroungers !!!!!

Why do you say "your" government? Is it not "your" government as much as it is mine?

 

In case you weren't aware, i am not the one setting the target and i am not the one calling for migration to be stopped or brought below a certain number. I simply want all immigrants to be treated the same way and for them all to have good and reasonable justification for coming to the country, and for them to be able to fit in to society well. I don't judge an immigrant's value simply by the work they will do. An immigrant who is married to a British citizen and who is coming to become a part of that family, may well integrate better into society than someone who is coming to pick fruit or clean windows and live with other foreign people. And what it is to say that the person coming to live with the family won't end up working if they stay long enough in the country. How are you able to conclude that they will be benefit scroungers? Are you not aware of the financial requirements set upon non EU immigrants coming in to the country? Financial requirements for EU immigrants is zero. Personally i think the whole benefit scrounger debate where immigrants are concerned is blown out of proportion and is really not the main issue, but if you are concerned about it, you might want to start with the immigrants who can arrive with not a penny to their name.

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rixalex Diamond Member

rixalex

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Where are you from? Somalia?

 

It's already been shown that most EU migrants come to work and are a net economic benefit.

 

EU immigration is dropping like a stone under the twin levers of a collapsing pound and English nasty xenophobia.

 

And that's without us applying ANY of several controls available to us.

 

Amber Rudd has just stated that EU immigration  is no longer an issue and thus she proposes Norway plus.

 

Now, please drop your nonsense 

EU immigration is free to fall or rise. At the moment it is falling. If we stay in the EU and accept all the freedoms, it can just as easily rise again as it has before. None of the controls you mention allow us to screen people as they come through the door.

 

The fact that there is an open door policy is not the reason why migrants come to work and are a net economic benefit. Not having an open door policy will not mean migrants won't come to work and won't be a net economic benefit. It will simply mean we get control over who comes in and who doesn't. Net economic benefit can be improved, if that is what is wanted from immigrants. Personally though i don't think the focus should be solely on economic benefits, but on how well they fit in to our society. That should be the first concern, above everything else. All the time you allow people to walk in unquestioned, how will you ever address this issue?

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1 hour ago, rixalex said:

The message from the leavers and Brexiteers has been consistently that we want to have CONTROLLED borders, not CLOSED borders, and that we want to treat all immigrants equally in how we vet them. It's not that complicated, and if it makes EU people feel unwelcome, sorry but how do they think non EU people have been feeling the last 15 or so years as they get subjected to testing whereas EU people don't. Why is it EU people are happy with a system that treats immigrants so differently? How would EU people feel if they had to be tested to come to Britain while non EU people could walk in freely? THEN they might have real justification for feeling not welcome.

 

Yes, I understand that you want to control the people. You want to control the European people who are productive to your country, just like Thailand does.

 

However you fail to understand that the people who actually are productive and wish to improve your country, have minds of their own and don't wish to be treated as mindless herd of sheeps, like Thailand does. 

 

You also fail to understand that these people who have moved to their new home country wish to feel that their new home country is their real home. They wish to feel to be part of the society and be productive part of the society. We all want that. 

 

When you take away their basic security to exists in your country, bad things tend to happen. 

The best skilled people will move to another country as they can do so. Some can't due family and other reasons.

 

The lesser skilled workers might hold on and keep on working. But guess what happens to their motivation to improve the country they are living in. When the people feel unwelcome by the natives, the working people no longer care what happens to the country. The ground has been poisoned. Xenophilia won.

 

You did this. Your attitude did this. After few years, don't complain how bad things are as you are responsible of the future what UK had become. 

 

There was an article that Thailand had become the most unequal country in the world. UK have still goals ahead. Give it all to the richest 0.1% of people. 

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Grouse Senior Member

Grouse

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59 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Why do you say "your" government? Is it not "your" government as much as it is mine?

 

In case you weren't aware, i am not the one setting the target and i am not the one calling for migration to be stopped or brought below a certain number. I simply want all immigrants to be treated the same way and for them all to have good and reasonable justification for coming to the country, and for them to be able to fit in to society well. I don't judge an immigrant's value simply by the work they will do. An immigrant who is married to a British citizen and who is coming to become a part of that family, may well integrate better into society than someone who is coming to pick fruit or clean windows and live with other foreign people. And what it is to say that the person coming to live with the family won't end up working if they stay long enough in the country. How are you able to conclude that they will be benefit scroungers? Are you not aware of the financial requirements set upon non EU immigrants coming in to the country? Financial requirements for EU immigrants is zero. Personally i think the whole benefit scrounger debate where immigrants are concerned is blown out of proportion and is really not the main issue, but if you are concerned about it, you might want to start with the immigrants who can arrive with not a penny to their name.

Ah, now we have the truth

 

Having difficulty importing a Thai wife?

 

Difficulty jumping the financial hurdles?

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1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Why do you say "your" government? Is it not "your" government as much as it is mine?

 

In case you weren't aware, i am not the one setting the target and i am not the one calling for migration to be stopped or brought below a certain number. I simply want all immigrants to be treated the same way and for them all to have good and reasonable justification for coming to the country, and for them to be able to fit in to society well. I don't judge an immigrant's value simply by the work they will do. An immigrant who is married to a British citizen and who is coming to become a part of that family, may well integrate better into society than someone who is coming to pick fruit or clean windows and live with other foreign people. And what it is to say that the person coming to live with the family won't end up working if they stay long enough in the country. How are you able to conclude that they will be benefit scroungers? Are you not aware of the financial requirements set upon non EU immigrants coming in to the country? Financial requirements for EU immigrants is zero. Personally i think the whole benefit scrounger debate where immigrants are concerned is blown out of proportion and is really not the main issue, but if you are concerned about it, you might want to start with the immigrants who can arrive with not a penny to their name.

Basically what you say is "Those damn Europeans had too much freedom in UK without our, more privileged people's oversight. They could do whatever they wanted, just like us, overlords".

 

You want to control the people. That's your thing.

 

One of the EU principles is to let people to be free. I suppose that doesn't work for you then.

 

That's also one reason you should be out of EU. Our western Turkey, a country with less freedoms for the people who are the society in large. 

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Grouse Senior Member

Grouse

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9 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Make an ASSumption. Make an ASS of yourself.

Well what is the real reason you dislike the EU having privileged access? I think access to the single market and OUR reciprocal access is a great deal.

 

The fact that OUR government makes it difficult for us to import new family and friends is not the fault of the EU. A Swedish colleague has just received long stay visas for his lady friend and two kids. No difficulty whatever. No interviews, no tests, no bank statements.

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rixalex Diamond Member

rixalex

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25 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Yes, I understand that you want to control the people. You want to control the European people who are productive to your country, just like Thailand does.

 

However you fail to understand that the people who actually are productive and wish to improve your country, have minds of their own and don't wish to be treated as mindless herd of sheeps, like Thailand does. 

 

You also fail to understand that these people who have moved to their new home country wish to feel that their new home country is their real home. They wish to feel to be part of the society and be productive part of the society. We all want that. 

 

When you take away their basic security to exists in your country, bad things tend to happen. 

The best skilled people will move to another country as they can do so. Some can't due family and other reasons.

 

The lesser skilled workers might hold on and keep on working. But guess what happens to their motivation to improve the country they are living in. When the people feel unwelcome by the natives, the working people no longer care what happens to the country. The ground has been poisoned. Xenophilia won.

 

You did this. Your attitude did this. After few years, don't complain how bad things are as you are responsible of the future what UK had become. 

 

There was an article that Thailand had become the most unequal country in the world. UK have still goals ahead. Give it all to the richest 0.1% of people. 

You continue to misrepresent and lie about my view.

 

I didn't say i wanted to control European people. I said i wanted to control ALL immigrants before they arrive.

 

The sort of immigration that is being suggested is one used by Australia. A points based system. I have no idea why you think that immigrants would be made to feel like sheep in fair and equal system like this, or why their security would be undermined.

 

Don't you care at all about the way non EU immigrants get discriminated against. Why are you opposed to an immigration system that treats all immigrants equally?

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3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Well what is the real reason you dislike the EU having privileged access? I think access to the single market and OUR reciprocal access is a great deal.

 

The fact that OUR government makes it difficult for us to import new family and friends is not the fault of the EU. A Swedish colleague has just received long stay visas for his lady friend and two kids. No difficulty whatever. No interviews, no tests, no bank statements.

EU freedoms simply makes our countries become larger. It really doesn't take anything away from us. 

 

We, as ordinary people, have more freedoms and abilities for us. Yes, EU needs to protect it's borders, which is pretty much what the EU-sceptics has been yelling all the time. 

 

But to get a wife to visit EU countries is more up to the each individual country's policies. In UK's case, which is not part of our common travel area, it's entirely up to the UK's own policies. 

 

 

 

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rixalex Diamond Member

rixalex

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5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Well what is the real reason you dislike the EU having privileged access? I think access to the single market and OUR reciprocal access is a great deal.

 

The fact that OUR government makes it difficult for us to import new family and friends is not the fault of the EU. A Swedish colleague has just received long stay visas for his lady friend and two kids. No difficulty whatever. No interviews, no tests, no bank statements.

It's not that i object to EU citizens having privileged access in particular, it's that i would object to ANY nation having totally free access to our country with any checks whatsoever. Firstly, because it is unfair to immigrants from other nations and secondly, because i don't think it's a good idea letting people in the country when you have no idea about their background at all. I appreciate you think it is worth it but then you are personally benefiting from the system so what other opinion would you have? Much like the employers in the UK who are getting cheap labour from the EU. They too think it's great.

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9 minutes ago, rixalex said:

You continue to misrepresent and lie about my view.

 

I didn't say i wanted to control European people. I said i wanted to control ALL immigrants before they arrive.

 

The sort of immigration that is being suggested is one used by Australia. A points based system. I have no idea why you think that immigrants would be made to feel like sheep in fair and equal system like this, or why their security would be undermined.

 

Don't you care at all about the way non EU immigrants get discriminated against. Why are you opposed to an immigration system that treats all immigrants equally?

I translate what you say and what we Europeans hear and understand what you said.

 

You have wanted to exclude yourself from the EU. That's fine and it's already happening. 

 

The lower level workers, who do the stuff UK's ruling people don't really want to do, are going to be expelled by Britain and no longer can't nor wish to continue to work in the UK.

 

You took their rights away, so why wouldn't they want to find better opportunities in the rest of the EU countries, which treat them better?

 

Now you have started to fill the cap with non-EU people. From you former common world. That's fine as well.

 

But for the EU's point of view, your economy is about to slow down. Hopefully you vetted those immigrants well as they are about to enter EU once there is not enough work in the UK anymore.

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4 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Oilinki..why not pop over to France..I think Macron is in need of your wisdom, then move on to Madrid then Dublin and on your way back to Thailand..you can sort out Greece's problems in Athens.
We Brits can sort out our own issues if you don't mind.

As I see, those problems are each individual country's own issues and they have to deal with the problems by themselves.

 

Brexit however is between UK and EU. 

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15 minutes ago, rixalex said:

It's not that i object to EU citizens having privileged access in particular, it's that i would object to ANY nation having totally free access to our country with any checks whatsoever. Firstly, because it is unfair to immigrants from other nations and secondly, because i don't think it's a good idea letting people in the country when you have no idea about their background at all. I appreciate you think it is worth it but then you are personally benefiting from the system so what other opinion would you have? Much like the employers in the UK who are getting cheap labour from the EU. They too think it's great.

So you basically want total and full control of the lesser people who are not British. 

 

That's not really inviting, which is probably why better off people no longer wish to come to UK. Who really wishes to be controlled in such way by their host country? 

 

 

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mommysboy Ruby Member

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58 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Basically what you say is "Those damn Europeans had too much freedom in UK without our, more privileged people's oversight. They could do whatever they wanted, just like us, overlords".

 

You want to control the people. That's your thing.

 

One of the EU principles is to let people to be free. I suppose that doesn't work for you then.

 

That's also one reason you should be out of EU. Our western Turkey, a country with less freedoms for the people who are the society in large. 

Perhaps you live in a country that is not over-populated, that is a net benefactor of the EU, and where there is still a good standard of living.  Alas, none of this applies to the UK, so leaving the EU is more an act of desperation than anything else you want to imply.

 

Maybe you'd think much the same if the situation was reversed.  UK is in a bit of a mess.  Personally, I think leaving the EU was a bit of a knee jerk reaction, but you can understand why it's happened, because the present system does not allow an individual country to put the brakes on EU migration, even though there may be good grounds to do so.

 

On the point of EU workers in the UK: yes maybe some settle in the UK. However, how many merely spend as little as possible and send their money back home?  That's not good for the UK economy.  It would be much better if UK workers were employed, though it seems they are unable or unwilling to do as much.

 

All this notwithstanding, the UK has a massive job to do in restructuring its economy, whether in or out of the EU.

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dick dasterdly Senior Member

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14 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I translate what you say and what we Europeans hear and understand what you said.

 

You have wanted to exclude yourself from the EU. That's fine and it's already happening. 

 

The lower level workers, who do the stuff UK's ruling people don't really want to do, are going to be expelled by Britain and no longer can't nor wish to continue to work in the UK.

 

You took their rights away, so why wouldn't they want to find better opportunities in the rest of the EU countries, which treat them better?

 

Now you have started to fill the cap with non-EU people. From you former common world. That's fine as well.

 

But for the EU's point of view, your economy is about to slow down. Hopefully you vetted those immigrants well as they are about to enter EU once there is not enough work in the UK anymore.

If I understand correctly (?), the uk govt.  tried to make an agreement with the eu that immigrants already in the UK could stay, as long as it was a reciprocal agreement.  But the eu weren't prepared to agree to this.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Of course the uk's ruling people don't want to do the jobs filled by lower level workers!  Why on earth would they, bearing in mind they are paid minimum salary at best!

 

The problem is that the influx of unskilled workers from eastern european countries has contributed towards keeping the pay for lower level workers as low as possible.  The uk is not a cheap country to live in, and so the poorest brits are reduced to either competing in a race to the bottom (wage wise), or claiming benefits.

 

More than a few of the low skilled immigrants either go to the uk to work for a short time - and earn money far above that than which they could earn back home - or possibly, stay long enough to start claiming uk benefits.

 

Getting rid of the unskilled immigrants would slightly increase the chances of the lowest paid brits. to obtain a job that pays a livable wage.  They too will be paying taxes on those jobs - in fact higher taxes than immigrants, if employers are forced to pay a reasonable wage, rather than the lowest possible.  Plus they wouldn't need to claim benefits if they were able to obtain jobs paying a reasonable wage.

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1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Perhaps you live in a country that is not over-populated, that is a net benefactor of the EU, and where there is still a good standard of living.  Alas, none of this applies to the UK, so leaving the EU is more an act of desperation than anything else you want to imply.

 

Maybe you'd think much the same if the situation was reversed.  UK is in a bit of a mess.  Personally, I think leaving the EU was a bit of a knee jerk reaction, but you can understand why it's happened, because the present system does not allow an individual country to put the brakes on EU migration, even though there may be good grounds to do so.

I live in Thailand. 

 

My home country however is definitely not overpopulated, it's a country where you can get lost in the forest and can stay there forever ???? My country is also a net provider for the EU, which is all good as EU is not a zero sum entity. My country gains a lot more from being a EU member, even if we put a bit more money into it. 

 

Like I said before. It seems to me that UK is nothing more than colder and more sexually frustrated version of Italy. You were supposed to be smart and logical, but at the end of the day, you are nothing like that. 

 

That's why I can understand why Brexit happened. 

 

The reason why I now want UK to have full and definitive break from EU is the xenophilic voices from UK, yelled loud at UK's medias. You no longer belong to our EU, if you ever did really belong to it. 

 

I have been privileged to know multiple good hearted British people. They are naturally still going to be my friends after brexit. But as a country, UK is better off outside. 

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6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

If I understand correctly (?), the uk govt.  tried to make an agreement with the eu that immigrants already in the UK could stay, as long as it was a reciprocal agreement.  But the eu weren't prepared to agree to this.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Of course the uk's ruling people don't want to do the jobs filled by lower level workers!  Why on earth would they, bearing in mind they are paid minimum salary at best!

 

The problem is that the influx of unskilled workers from eastern european countries has contributed towards keeping the pay for lower level workers as low as possible.  The uk is not a cheap country to live in, and so the poorest brits are reduced to either competing in a race to the bottom (wage wise), or claiming benefits.

 

More than a few of the low skilled immigrants either go to the uk to work for a short time - and earn money far above that than which they could earn back home - or possibly, stay long enough to start claiming uk benefits.

 

Getting rid of the unskilled immigrants would slightly increase the chances of the lowest paid brits. to obtain a job that pays a livable wage.  They too will be paying taxes on those jobs - in fact higher taxes than immigrants, if employers are forced to pay a reasonable wage, rather than the lowest possible.  Plus they wouldn't need to claim benefits if they were able to obtain jobs paying a reasonable wage.

It seems to me that your problem is with people who have better work attitude than UK people have?

 

Are you a unskilled person, if I may ask?

 

I suppose you are aware that there are ways to deal with the salary issue, by the governments? Increase the minimum salary (and to balance budget, decrease benefits). Don't punish the people who really want to work. All that kind of things are possible, if the ruling government is for it. 

 

The way I see, what is UK's real problem, is the increase of inequality and how the really rich people no longer contribute to the society and they try to hide their taxable incomes in the UK's tax havens.

 

Guess what. EU started the process to get rid of these tax havens, which residented mostly in the UK's islands. EU started the process to make the richest people in the UK accountable. After Brexit that process no longer apply to the UK. Well done, ruling class who think the peasants should not be shared of their wealth. 

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mommysboy Ruby Member

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25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

If I understand correctly (?), the uk govt.  tried to make an agreement with the eu that immigrants already in the UK could stay, as long as it was a reciprocal agreement.  But the eu weren't prepared to agree to this.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Of course the uk's ruling people don't want to do the jobs filled by lower level workers!  Why on earth would they, bearing in mind they are paid minimum salary at best!

 

The problem is that the influx of unskilled workers from eastern european countries has contributed towards keeping the pay for lower level workers as low as possible.  The uk is not a cheap country to live in, and so the poorest brits are reduced to either competing in a race to the bottom (wage wise), or claiming benefits.

 

More than a few of the low skilled immigrants either go to the uk to work for a short time - and earn money far above that than which they could earn back home - or possibly, stay long enough to start claiming uk benefits.

 

Getting rid of the unskilled immigrants would slightly increase the chances of the lowest paid brits. to obtain a job that pays a livable wage.  They too will be paying taxes on those jobs - in fact higher taxes than immigrants, if employers are forced to pay a reasonable wage, rather than the lowest possible.  Plus they wouldn't need to claim benefits if they were able to obtain jobs paying a reasonable wage.

To summarise, it's high time we started looking after our own! Many low paid workers face ever escalating costs. and are bearing the brunt of social welfare cuts.

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mommysboy Ruby Member

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30 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I live in Thailand. 

 

My home country however is definitely not overpopulated, it's a country where you can get lost in the forest and can stay there forever ???? My country is also a net provider for the EU, which is all good as EU is not a zero sum entity. My country gains a lot more from being a EU member, even if we put a bit more money into it. 

 

Like I said before. It seems to me that UK is nothing more than colder and more sexually frustrated version of Italy. You were supposed to be smart and logical, but at the end of the day, you are nothing like that. 

 

That's why I can understand why Brexit happened. 

 

The reason why I now want UK to have full and definitive break from EU is the xenophilic voices from UK, yelled loud at UK's medias. You no longer belong to our EU, if you ever did really belong to it. 

 

I have been privileged to know multiple good hearted British people. They are naturally still going to be my friends after brexit. But as a country, UK is better off outside. 

Then leave it at that.  Do you honestly think that the vast majority of Brits are as you portray them to be.  Most Brits are easy going, and tolerant, and not so different from your own country.  Does yours really have no faults by the way?

 

Sadly, perhaps, Brits want out.  It really is a question merely of how much they want out, because the desired independence is coming with a big price.  Why add your insults to a difficult situation?  Like you say- no skin off your nose!

 

Sorry your infantile notion of the UK has been shattered.  Do you think you can get over it?

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2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

To summarise, it's high time we started looking after our own! Many low paid workers face ever escalating costs. and are bearing the brunt of social welfare cuts.

That's the way to go! It's really time for each government to take care of their own subjects. 

 

If a government can't take care of it's own subjects, it the failure of the given government and perhaps society as whole. 

 

UK is prosperous country with huge amount of wealth to be shared between the people. Why does that not happen? Well, you might have to dig deeper into your own society and to those who hold the power?

 

EU has nothing to do with UK's internal politics. Well, it has some. EU transfers money to the UK's farmers and does things which actually benefit the common people. But who would believe that from 'bunch of unelected people'.?

 

Right

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