Why Thai banks are trying to charge you for cash at ATMs and branches

[KneeDeep]

45 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

I do not trade.. I am a normal person... My Dutch credit card takes a 5 euro transaction fee when I use it to withdraw money.

You can have a US credit card all you want, the 3% surcharge levied by many Thai vendors cannot be dodged.

In short, a credit card is great in France, it is far from ideal in Thailand. Which incidentally remains
A cash first t society l. As I said before, you cannot pay for your som tam Lao with a credit card, or a debit card, or the <deleted> bitcoins..

Sent from my SM-J730F using Tapatalk
 

 

Yes, but there are many places that do not charge for card use and you can use the credit card to withdraw cash over the counter without fee.

Perhaps the problem is your bank in the Netherlands charging you and there being no fee free cards from which to choose.

 

Only N26 shows as useful for spending in Thailand. Perhaps you know the landscape there better than I.

[mogandave]

I do not trade.. I am a normal person... My Dutch credit card takes a 5 euro transaction fee when I use it to withdraw money.

You can have a US credit card all you want, the 3% surcharge levied by many Thai vendors cannot be dodged.

In short, a credit card is great in France, it is far from ideal in Thailand. Which incidentally remains
A cash first t society l. As I said before, you cannot pay for your som tam Lao with a credit card, or a debit card, or the bitcoins..

Sent from my SM-J730F using Tapatalk

How do you pay for you som tam Lao if not by trade?

Most places I trade with (i.e. buy stuff from) take credit cards and don’t charge the extra fee, that why I who you trade with (i.e. who you buy stuff from).

One response is plenty...

[moana]

10 hours ago, mogandave said:

Well I just checked, and the XE rate is 0.02% better than the visa rate you suggested was more accurate, so I’m not convinced

The XE rate is the live mid-market rate. It changes constantly throughout the day while the currency is traded. It can be a 0.02% spread at one point in the day (though that would be extremely rare) and 0.9% at another point in the day. Like I said, it is absolutely irrelevant in this case.

 

The card companies rates are valid for 24 hours at a time, and are published at 00:00 GMT. They are the only metric when it comes to finding out whether you are being charged a percentage on top of the published rate.

 

It's a very simple test - buy something or withdraw cash, wait for the transaction to appear on your card's website in USD, go to the Visa calculator, input the transaction date, price you paid in THB, and 0% bank fee, and see if the result matches exactly to the USD amount on your card. If it doesn't match, change the bank fee to 1% and see if it matches then.

 

I think you will find that you are being charged 1%.

 

10 hours ago, mogandave said:

switching to Schwab would be sometime of a PITA

Of course you don't need to move all your financial activity to Schwab. You only need a new Schwab account so you can get the debit card. Just open an account and deposit the funds you intend to withdraw from.

 

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, moana said:

Many, if not all, banks have an "AllFree" type card now. It is "expensive" though, and definitely overkill for TMB, since in TMB all types of accounts are free to withdraw/deposit nationwide for free (limited to TMB machines/branches though).

Why the negativity, bad experience? I have had my account for just about 20 years now without any complaint. If you think that the 350 baht/year is expensive that is up to you, and you are also free to believe whatever restrictions you think may apply.

At the end of the day it is all about personal choice.

[mogandave]

Of course you don't need to move all your financial activity to Schwab. You only need a new Schwab account so you can get the debit card. Just open an account and deposit the funds you intend to withdraw from.
 

While I understand the limitations of the XE rate, I doubt very much it would be consistently 1% lower than the Visa rate.

Again, I do not use the card often, as I only use it to get spending money when traveling outside Thailand and the US, but next time I use it I will check.

[mogandave]

Of course you don't need to move all your financial activity to Schwab. You only need a new Schwab account so you can get the debit card. Just open an account and deposit the funds you intend to withdraw from.
 

While I understand the limitations of the XE rate, I doubt very much it would be consistently 1% lower than the Visa rate.

Again, I do not use the card often, as I only use it to get spending money when traveling outside Thailand and the US, but next time I use it I will check.

[moana]

21 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Why the negativity, bad experience?

On the contrary. I love TMB. It's the only bank in Thailand that doesn't participate in the stupid out-of-province cash withdrawal overcharge scheme. That applies to all of their accounts and cards, and that is exactly the point -- there is no need to pay extra for "AllFree".

 

I see no reason to pay a relatively expensive 350/yr fee for something that can be had for free (well, 40/yr if you take the basic debit card). All you need to do is simply change your account to the basic type.

[Wallander4]

21 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Well then, if interest rates turn you on, why don't you keep all your wealth in Turkish Lira at 24%?

Mr. Clueless defending all thai stuff LOL

[sandyf]

22 minutes ago, moana said:

All you need to do is simply change your account to the basic type.

Been there and moved on.

 

BTW, in 2012 it was 250 baht on the basic account.

[mogandave]

18 minutes ago, moana said:

On the contrary. I love TMB. It's the only bank in Thailand that doesn't participate in the stupid out-of-province cash withdrawal overcharge scheme. That applies to all of their accounts and cards, and that is exactly the point -- there is no need to pay extra for "AllFree".

 

I see no reason to pay a relatively expensive 350/yr fee for something that can be had for free (well, 40/yr if you take the basic debit card). All you need to do is simply change your account to the basic type.

Exactly, I hate paying for something I can get free...

[chaihot]

5 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

You can have a US credit card all you want, the 3% surcharge levied by many Thai vendors cannot be dodged.

In short, a credit card is great in France, it is far from ideal in Thailand. Which incidentally remains
A cash first t society l. 

I can't agree with that.  I have been married almost 16 years and was here years before that; we have consistently used credit cards at least the last 12 years; 90% with the Capital One Venture credit card, the other 10% with Chase Presidential Plus.  It was substantially more difficult to use the card in the early days, with multiple name/id verifications.  But that is over now.  In some locations, you are not even required to sign the sales slip (as in the US).

 

As an example, we use the card at Carl Jr; Pizza Co, Mariott Lunch, Big C, Tops, Starbucks, Home supply stores (Baan), Sizzler, The News Cafe in Jomptien, all gas stations, car wash companies, tire stores, toyota repair, Romayama water park ... I could go on and on and on.  And none of these places charge a fee on top.  I don't carry much cash, so I would never be able to survive without cards.

 

I do not understand how people say credit cards are not easy in Thailand.  Unless you are shopping at the local market, where Ga Pow is 25 baht, from the lady who sells 10 of those a day.  I am referring to LIVING here expenses ... and not visiting and souvenir shopping.

[sandyf]

16 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Exactly, I hate paying for something I can get free...

At the end of the day you get what you pay for. I have 2 accounts with TMB, one transactional with a card and the other savings without card. There are no charges at all on the savings account and I get a bit of interest. Never a big balance as I do income rather than money in the bank, although that may have to change.

There has always been an annual charge on the transactional account since I started in 99, 200 baht then and I think it has been twice the account has been upgraded by the bank without charge. I think the annual went up from 250 to 350 in 2016 and certainly not going to mess about for what may not be any saving

Both accounts have been linked on online banking since 2010 and direct debits come out of the savings account, suits me, its horses for courses. If you only ever do ATM transactions it is fairly straightforward, if you have other transactions to deal with then there is more to consider. 

[Pattaya46]

5 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

// the 3% surcharge levied by many Thai vendors cannot be dodged.

Seems to me that very few places still have such surcharge (at least among places I go/shop)

At the opposite, many places make a discount if you pay by card.

(Just bought a TV online on PowerBuy: 5% discount if you pay by card )

[moana]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

At the end of the day you get what you pay for

Often not the case. Marketing and inertia will easily make you pay much more for little added value.

 

I'll just put this here and leave it at that, since you're obviously happy to pay more for naught -- I pay 0 baht per year for my TMB account. I pay 200 baht per five years for my TMB debit card (yes, that's 40/yr). I actively use the account for bill pay, top ups, transfers to/from 3rd parties, savings, frequent cash deposits/withdrawals, etc.

 

I'm not sure why you are so happy to be paying more instead of taking some advice, but hey, that's your call.

 

23 minutes ago, chaihot said:

I do not understand how people say credit cards are not easy in Thailand

I think the main gap in this discussion stems from the fact that non-US cards simply don't provide any proper incentive to make people WANT to use them.

 

With good US cards we are being super spoiled with 0% FTF, $0 AF, generous cashbacks, price protection, etc. We see real money deposited into our accounts as a result of using the cards. Each purchase we make comes with a built-in discount.

 

With your average non-US card it's the exact opposite. Customers actively LOSE money by maintaining and using it. A 2.5-3 % conversion fee (instead of FTF) is almost ubiquitous. Finding cards with 0% conversion fee and no annual fees is almost unheard of, and even if found, forget about receiving anything of real value back as a result of using it.

 

It's this gap in card usage experience that causes these debates.

[mogandave]

The Thai cards are okay as well, I have Citibank visa and a Thai American Express that wave annual fees and give "points" and discounts at different stores and whatnot. 

 

They have fees, but waive them every year when I call and squeak.

[Galactus]

On 12/6/2018 at 2:41 PM, sandyf said:

It is TMB and just checked the account and it is called AllFree.

I opened my account back in 1999 in Pattaya when it was Thai Military Bank and has been upgraded a couple of times over the years. I just had a look at the website and it looks like they may have dropped the minimum balance but like many Thai websites not very clear.

I live on the outskirts of Chonburi City and usually use the Kasikorn ATM as it is the most convenient and I have used the card in Hua Hin and Hat Yai in recent months so can confirm there is no charge.

same here. for the similar reason and due to failing service of Bangkok Bank, moved all my accounts to Thai Military Bank recently.

[CanInBKK]

Hmmmm, seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread. The Banks and BOT are considering cash withdrawals/deposits at ATMs and branches because there’s a very high cost involved - cash transportation. How much do you think it costs to physically transport millions of Baht to each branch and ATM of every bank in the country? This cost used to be subsidized through collection of fees during inter-bank withdrawal or transfer (e.g. from SCB to KBank). Since the abolishment of almost all transfer fees and bill payment fees the banks are now left saddled with the cash transportation cost. If there were no alternatives I would understand the uproar but with absolutely free and super convenient online/mobile banking I’m truly curious what everybody is complaining about. (BTW those 220 Baht fees earlier in the thread only apply to use of a foreign bank’s ATM card and not applicable to the vast majority of Thais).

 

I’m sure in the end it’ll be scheme whereby you can withdraw something like 1,000 Baht per day without fee because really, with QR code, Rabbit, Line Pay, Debit and Credit it’s really not necessary to carry that much cash around anymore to make major purchases and all but the smallest of merchants accepts at least one if not multiple of the above payment channels.

[direction BANGKOK]

15 minutes ago, CanInBKK said:

Hmmmm, seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread. The Banks and BOT are considering cash withdrawals/deposits at ATMs and branches because there’s a very high cost involved - cash transportation. How much do you think it costs to physically transport millions of Baht to each branch and ATM of every bank in the country? This cost used to be subsidized through collection of fees during inter-bank withdrawal or transfer (e.g. from SCB to KBank). Since the abolishment of almost all transfer fees and bill payment fees the banks are now left saddled with the cash transportation cost. If there were no alternatives I would understand the uproar but with absolutely free and super convenient online/mobile banking I’m truly curious what everybody is complaining about. (BTW those 220 Baht fees earlier in the thread only apply to use of a foreign bank’s ATM card and not applicable to the vast majority of Thais).

 

I’m sure in the end it’ll be scheme whereby you can withdraw something like 1,000 Baht per day without fee because really, with QR code, Rabbit, Line Pay, Debit and Credit it’s really not necessary to carry that much cash around anymore to make major purchases and all but the smallest of merchants accepts at least one if not multiple of the above payment channels.

I see your point. Here is my interpretation, and I am not fan of bankers I will be honest. 

 

If there were no atms, what people would do is pull more cash out of their banks when at a branch. Despite common misonceptions, I do not believe it is all that unsafe to hide say 10,000 baht in your home. 

 

Having atms every 10 feet allows people to pull very small amounts of cash out, and doing that often. This seems, to me, the banks benefit most from this. I do not know how it is here, but for every dollar in a usa bank i believe they can loan out 10. So imagine all the interest they are making when people are keeping almost all their money in the bank. The atms (real purpose) serve the banks, and perhaps other businesses, not the people. 

 

This may be six half dozen or the other i think there are good points on both sides. I am not a big fan of banker business practices though. I mean just look at the spreadsheets to see where all the money is being made and that tells the story. 

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, moana said:

I'm not sure why you are so happy to be paying more instead of taking some advice, but hey, that's your call.

That comment is about as arrogant as it gets, the simple answer is you do not know what is best for everyone.

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, CanInBKK said:

// If there were no alternatives I would understand the uproar but with absolutely free and super convenient online/mobile banking I’m truly curious what everybody is complaining about. //

Alternatives? Seriously??

Thinking about it, I would say that 99% of my payments are made in cash, and in 95% of these cases there is no alternative payment available !

Last months I only made 2 online purchases.

 

Just today: 3 purchases of fruits at the market (30-60 B each), meal at local restaurant (30 B), sending 3 letters at Post Office (17 B), ice cream on the way (20 B), etc.

Cash is still the way to pay for most daily purchases, and for a long time yet...

[chaihot]

23 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Alternatives? Seriously??

Thinking about it, I would say that 99% of may payments are made in cash, and in 95% of this cases there is no alternative payment available !

Last months I only made 2 online purchases.

 

Just today: 3 purchases of fruits at the market (30-60 B each), meal at local restaurant (30 B), sending 3 letters at Post Office (17 B), ice cream on the way (20 B), etc.

Cash is still the way to pay for most daily purchases, and for a long time yet...

I understand your point ... but in all fairness, no merchant in the US, would allow me to use a credit card to buy $2 of fruit, $1 of meat, $.50 in postage, and a $.75 ice cream cone.  Well, I guess Wal-Mart would allow me to do that, but no small retailer.  

 

IMO the credit card issue is best explained in two parts ... the first, in the post by 

5 hours ago, moana said:

I think the main gap in this discussion stems from the fact that non-US cards simply don't provide any proper incentive to make people WANT to use them.

 

And the second centering around the AMOUNT of money you spend and type of merchant you are buying from.  I can't use a credit card to buy Ga Pow (50baht) at the little lady's show down the street, or the Watermelon drink (25baht) at the local market.  And if you do not shop anywhere but a local Thai market, I can understand never using a credit card.  

 

But I can (and do) use a credit card EVERY time to fill the gas tank in the car and for 90% of our restaurant meals, groceries and house supplies.  I wouldn't know what to do if I couldn't use a card.

 

When you factor in the mileage or free hotel stays I earn, it goes beyond win-win.  

 

PLUS, with the changes coming to Bangkok Bank ACH transfers through New York, I will need to pay even more attention to having enough cash, as free transfers will become substantially more difficult.  

 

 

[ravip]

1 hour ago, Galactus said:

same here. for the similar reason and due to failing service of Bangkok Bank, moved all my accounts to Thai Military Bank recently.

" ...and due to failing service of Bangkok Bank"

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

[mogandave]

I see your point. Here is my interpretation, and I am not fan of bankers I will be honest. 
 
If there were no atms, what people would do is pull more cash out of their banks when at a branch. Despite common misonceptions, I do not believe it is all that unsafe to hide say 10,000 baht in your home. 
 
Having atms every 10 feet allows people to pull very small amounts of cash out, and doing that often. This seems, to me, the banks benefit most from this. I do not know how it is here, but for every dollar in a usa bank i believe they can loan out 10. So imagine all the interest they are making when people are keeping almost all their money in the bank. The atms (real purpose) serve the banks, and perhaps other businesses, not the people. 
 
This may be six half dozen or the other i think there are good points on both sides. I am not a big fan of banker business practices though. I mean just look at the spreadsheets to see where all the money is being made and that tells the story. 

Not sure where you got the 10 to 1 loan thing with US banks, but banks generally make secured loans. Depending on one’s credit rating, the bank will loan a percentage of whatever you’re buying, and in the event you don’t pay, they repossess and sell the asset to recover their funds. It has nothing to do with how much their customers have in their accounts. It does get shaky when the government gets involved and compels the banks to enter into high risk loans.

Banks generally do not make a significant amount of money on the money people hold in their accounts, as most people do not have much money in the bank. They make money from these people mostly from fees.

Banks are not like a “payday-loan” operation (aka loan racket) that makes unsecured loans with high interest rates, the difference between what they make on a loan, and what they pay in interest is not that great.

But you are correct, with ATMs everywhere, some people only draw out a little at a time. That would likely change for a lot of people if they started charging for every transaction. Personally I only draw cash out once or twice a month.

[JimGant]

Quote

I would say that 99% of my payments are made in cash, and in 95% of these cases there is no alternative payment available !

How many notes and coins does your loincloth hold?????

[tropo]

On 12/5/2018 at 10:11 AM, scorecard said:

Another example, 350Baht fee to get an ATM card plus same for renewal, about 80% of a days wages for folks on official minimum wages - immoral.

 

Then on top a charge (15 - 50Baht approx.) every time I use the ATM card.

 

Thai banks are just greedy thieves. 

And they'll charge you for a new ATM card if it is accidentally left in or eaten by an ATM machine anywhere other than your home branch. They have a rule that any Thai non-home branch card will be destroyed and you're up for another 300/350 for standard cards and more for special privilege cards. The excuse for this will, of course, be that it's for security reasons.

 

I do like the cardless withdrawal method by phone app. (K-Bank Plus). 

[tropo]

2 hours ago, mogandave said:

the difference between what they make on a loan, and what they pay in interest is not that great.

Really? In Australia, I'll get under 1.5% on regular deposits and pay over 21% on credit card loans. Sure, you can find cheaper cards, but they'll still be above 15%.

 

Here's a good one for you. In the Philippines, I'll get under 1% on regular savings deposit and pay, wait for it, about 3.5% PER MONTH (currently about 42% per annum) on my credit card spending. All credit card interest rates are listed as per month so it doesn't sound so bad. Most people cannot multiply by 12 LOL. Oh, and most cards have a decent (high) yearly fee too.

[sjaak327]

11 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

How do you pay for you som tam Lao if not by trade?

Most places I trade with (i.e. buy stuff from) take credit cards and don’t charge the extra fee, that why I who you trade with (i.e. who you buy stuff from).

One response is plenty...

 

Yes, blame the internet connection when I was posting this of course....

 

If pay for my som tam lao in cash, and in many cases in Thailand, that IS the only option. 

[mogandave]

50 minutes ago, tropo said:

And they'll charge you for a new ATM card if it is accidentally left in or eaten by an ATM machine anywhere other than your home branch. They have a rule that any Thai non-home branch card will be destroyed and you're up for another 300/350 for standard cards and more for special privilege cards. The excuse for this will, of course, be that it's for security reasons.

 

I do like the cardless withdrawal method by phone app. (K-Bank Plus). 

 

Unless you use card-free ATM in which case you have no card, and there is no fee...

[mogandave]

3 hours ago, chaihot said:

I understand your point ... but in all fairness, no merchant in the US, would allow me to use a credit card to buy $2 of fruit, $1 of meat, $.50 in postage, and a $.75 ice cream cone.  Well, I guess Wal-Mart would allow me to do that, but no small retailer.  

 

IMO the credit card issue is best explained in two parts ... the first, in the post by 

 

And the second centering around the AMOUNT of money you spend and type of merchant you are buying from.  I can't use a credit card to buy Ga Pow (50baht) at the little lady's show down the street, or the Watermelon drink (25baht) at the local market.  And if you do not shop anywhere but a local Thai market, I can understand never using a credit card.  

 

But I can (and do) use a credit card EVERY time to fill the gas tank in the car and for 90% of our restaurant meals, groceries and house supplies.  I wouldn't know what to do if I couldn't use a card.

 

When you factor in the mileage or free hotel stays I earn, it goes beyond win-win.  

 

PLUS, with the changes coming to Bangkok Bank ACH transfers through New York, I will need to pay even more attention to having enough cash, as free transfers will become substantially more difficult.  

 

 

 

Virtually every merchant I trade with in the US takes credit cards, and while one would have a hard time finding an ice-cream cone in the US for $2, you are certaily welcome to use your credit card at most any place that does sell ice cream.

 

Oh, you can buy an ice-cream for $2 at McDonald's in the US and pay for it with a credit card at the drive-thru...

 

You can feed the parking meter with a credit card, and use a credit card in a lot of vending machines.

 

[tropo]

19 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Unless you use card-free ATM in which case you have no card, and there is no fee...

I have no fee with the ATM card as long as it's in Pattaya - any ATM. When I go to BKK, even my own bank charges me a fee. All K-Bank ATM's now have the cardless facility, done through the K-Bank Plus app and requiring a QR scan. I see most ATM's from other banks have this feature too, but the process can vary.